Free College for Everyone Is Not About Educating the Masses. It's About Saving A Dying Industry.

a reply to: Aazadan

Trade schools are for blue collar work. Blue collar work is being devalued by the day, and in another 40 years will almost entirely disappear. It has no future, because it does not educate individuals enough. It creates drones, not people who will revolutionize industries that can keep America competitive in a world where businesses generate revenue globally but spend it locally.

Blue collar work will disappear in 40 years? At what point in the history of humanity have humans not created or built "stuff"? The world runs on stuff. Our world is stuff. The more humans, the more stuff is needed.

This increase in demand drives automation, not the other way around. It simply moves the work. The human tends to the automation. As such, that human needs more education not less. Trade schools provide that education. It provides people who know how to do that which a global economy demands.

Universities generally produce paper wielding individuals who, after 4-6 years, have no hands-on skills. They are inculcated with the notion that they are "the way of the future". Of course this is what they are told. It's a sales pitch. Astonishingly, these Universities biggest competitors (the tech/trade schools) are portrayed as inferior, a dying breed, or a waste of time and......money.

I am not bashing traditional college. I have a degree from one of those big traditional schools. However, I also have a degree from a tech school. And I can tell you this:

1. Traditional colleges do have some terrific programs which produce valuable skills. They also have a lot of frivolous programs with no matching demand in the business world. Why? It would take a lot to convince a thinking person it has nothing to do with profit.

2. Tech or Trade School have some amazing programs which produce valuable skills. They generally do not bother with fat on the bones. What they provide is needed in the business world. I had 19 and 20 year old kids in my program getting hired the week after graduation. $20-$25/hour getting up to $35/hour was the norm. That is amazing money for a young kid.

Don’t need gov intervention that invisible hand is already slapping most dumbasses that go to college. That’s why they need free voucher from Liz warren. Unless you’re going tier one like icy league it’s mandated by profession like medical or law it’s waste of money more importantly time. I say as doctor.

Lots of idiots in colleges around US. Meaningless and futile exercise. Market is telling everyone that now. But some beta types still believe so Bernie bros.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: Subsonic

Here's the thing, those online courses are crap. Not all of them, but most are. Things like Coursera and Udacity are scams. That is not knowledge, it is watching a youtube video. It is one way communication when the point of university is two way communication. Class time is literally the most inconsequential part of college. Yes, you go to class, but you're supposed to be using university resources to do your own further study in the off time.

Since they are one way, anything that requires a person to evaluate like a writing course, cannot be taught. Furthermore, anything that may require some additional resources that you can't get by watching a video cannot be taught. Also, it eliminates any form of discussion. A good lecture will involve the professor speaking, but also engaging with the class, videos do not do that.

The only thing that is happening with higher education, is that people want a quicker and easier path to gain knowledge in a world where a 4 year degree is not enough. The absolute bare minimum at this point requires more like 8 years of study for most subjects as bachelors degrees are insufficient.

Not helping matters, is the fact that interns are worthless. Society has decided to merge both education and job training into the same program, a college education. This results in insufficient time for both. But, we've also decided that individuals need to take the risk on obtaining job skills. This means that universities are not giving students the tools they need to perform work, or the tools they need to think critically. This in turn causes interns to be of nearly zero value to a business.

If you think about it, this also makes sense. While the barrier to entry on labor is always going down, the world itself relies more and more on specialization so in order to do any meaningful work more education is required. If you need people with more than just a 4 year degree to fill entry level roles (which usually aren't very profitable to the business in the first place), how is someone with even less than that supposed to be able to contribute?

Internships are no longer about experience, or cheap labor. The only value an intern has to a company is as part of a talent identification process. A company can get some interns and try them out at a smaller loss than they take on normal entry level employees, and hopefully find some people who show potential that can be given return offers. The actual work an intern does, and the value they provide the company is negative.

tl;dr: People who are misinformed are trying to claim that reference material is replacing the need for classrooms. This is quite simply false. If it were true, then books would have ended the entire school system 100 years ago.

Weren’t you like 30 something college boy on food stamps a few years back? Now you’re socioeconomic advisor bc you graduated from some T4 and got first job at 40?

a reply to: Aazadan

Everything you just said is absurdly wrong and represents everything wrong with our education system.

When we are younger it is when our minds are most adaptable and capable of learning. It's during our youth that most of the molding into who we will become and our capabilities as an adult are molded.

This is why so many of us struggle as adults, we are given none of the tools to succeed when we are most capable of truly learning and becoming fluent in them to the point it becomes second nature. Instead we are forced to try and learn when our prime learning years are behind us making it all that much harder because we need to unlearn all the bad habits in grained in us from our #ty school system.

Also you mentioned taxes. When the hell in school do you remember being taught taxes or how to do them including itemization and the many forms? That would actually be a useful class in grade school everyone should have. It doesn't happen though because once again our schooling system is wholly inadequate.

Take for example when language is taught. You know why other countries kids are mostly bilingual at minimum? Because they don't wait until we lose our ability to easily learn and pick up language. Which is when we are young. Like toddler through eight or nine. Not in fricken middle school which is when we teach it and why almost no one leaves grade school actually being bilingual.

No our public schools are crap and the only thing they accomplish is trying to turn us into wholly unprepared helpless zombies with none of the skills being taught to actually prepare us for adulthood.

Which interestingly is the same reason most people that go to college fail.

a reply to: Subsonic

Things like blackboard, which have many issues are still going through universities. It allows for distance learning which has been a thing for many years. When most people talk about new education systems they are talking about getting an education by watching YouTube all day which is quite different.

a reply to: ABNARTY

Schools teach whatever there is demand for. Welcome to the free market. Unless you think the state should step in and help people make better choices. I can see an argument for that, but people tend to not like those outcomes.

a reply to: GrandPog

First job at 34 actually and yes that's me. When finishing my education (for now, I'm probably going to get a Masters at some point, the program I want it in though doesn't yet exist). I ended up finishing with 3 Bachelor's degrees, they're in Business, Computer Science, and Simulation Engineering. I also hold minors in Math and Political Science. In addition to that I have three Associate's Degrees which are in Computer Graphics, Web Development, and something with an awful name that would be mostly analogous to Human Computer Interaction.

I'm 37 now. The company I work for reached out and hired me going into my final year of university to be their lead software engineer in their division. I did that, things went well, and hired a few more people. 3 years in and my title now is Software Architect though my daily duties haven't really changed since my internship. I work for a Fortune 500 company, and my internship wage started at about $45/hour. It's considerably higher now, and all in the type of low COL area where federal minimum wage is still enough to comfortably afford rent.

Primarily I develop AR and VR experiences for training purposes. As far as the impact of my work goes, I save the company many millions of dollars per year (I should cross $100 million saved in total in my time here by the end of this year), and I have developed multiple techniques for VR that were new to the process. I invented 2 in particular that the company now holds patents on. I've also been successful enough in my work, that it has resulted in jobs for several more people in the company.

The total cost of my education which the government was kind enough to subsidize (not loan) was about 160k over 9 years for food, tuition, housing, and other living expenses. In the past 3 years I’ve paid roughly 113k in federal taxes. In a couple more years I’ll have fully repaid that entire investment, inflation adjustments, and then some. Not a bad investment right?

Of course, I'm one of the lucky ones. Statistically only about 1 person in 800 who attempt what I did successfully pull it off.

originally posted by: Puppylove
When we are younger it is when our minds are most adaptable and capable of learning. It's during our youth that most of the molding into who we will become and our capabilities as an adult are molded.

As a child you can only train a persons brain to get used to certain logic paths like learning a language, or to be conditioned for learning. You cannot teach someone critical thinking until their brain has developed enough which doesn't even first start until late teenage years, and fully form until 25. Part of this is the brains structure, and another part is because the person doesn't have enough experience to understand complex cause and effect relationships. A toddler can be taught to be bilingual but they can't reason on their own that a burner on a stove might be hot.

Instead we are forced to try and learn when our prime learning years are behind us making it all that much harder because we need to unlearn all the bad habits in grained in us from our #ty school system.

No. Most people just have bad study habits. What do you want to learn? If you can't afford classes on the subject, start reading. Endless ebooks on any topic you want are available for free and the rate of knowledge acquisition, not to mention the percent of knowledge retention is more than 10 times that of watching the same subject on YouTube. Not to mention, books can be peer reviewed so you don't end up watching crap like people pushing retirement planning advice by buying fractional gold. Reading won't get you professional accreditation but will put you on the path towards becoming competent in a field.

Also you mentioned taxes. When the hell in school do you remember being taught taxes or how to do them including itemization and the many forms? That would actually be a useful class in grade school everyone should have. It doesn't happen though because once again our schooling system is wholly inadequate.

Actually, I had a class on personal finance in high school, but at the time that was very rare. These days it's still rare but slightly less so. That said, you're completely missing the point. You're talking about a class that tells you exactly what number to put in each box on a tax form. That is being trained like a monkey. That is not being taught how to actually do your taxes, how to structure your activities throughout the year, what sort of deductions make the most sense to take, and so on. The forms themselves (especially for anyone who uses a 1040, which is most people) are extremely simple and if you can't figure out what those are asking for just by reading them I have serious doubts that you can even pass a literacy test.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: GrandPog

First job at 34 actually and yes. Finished with bachelors in business, computer science, and simulation engineering plus minors in math and political science. Additionally associates degrees in computer graphics, web development, and what would most closely today be human computer interaction.

37 now. Was hired directly out of university (actually a year before I finished) to be a lead software engineer, now software architect (which had no change in duties just a more descriptive title of my role) at a Fortune 500 company. Intern wage was about 45 per hour in an area where minimum wage can still pay rent. FTE wage is well above that.

Total cost of my education which the government was kind enough to pay was 250k for food tuition and housing. In the past 3 years I’ve paid roughly 113k in federal taxes. In a couple more years I’ll have fully repaid that entire investment and then some. Not a bad investment right?

For sure. We’ll be getting our first ROI when you’re like 46 then you can start tackling those abortions and roads you deferred for 25 years at compounded int of course but knowing we funded a self starter workhorse family man on food stamps in college no dependents in 30s and reading your 7 doctorates from # state on LinkedIn makes it all worthwhile bc at end of Day you matter.

a reply to: GrandPog

That 250k was in current dollars. I made a small edit to the above post, which reflects it over time rather than in current prices.

Anyways, at least I'm providing an ROI. Everyone I have hired is too.

Uneducated labor though? They never do, not that there's anything wrong with that, people are more than just account balance numbers but I threw it out there to show that education is worth investing in.

Despite the fact that I went far out of my way, and suffered much more than most others did, in order to avoid taking on college debt, and that I'll be one of the people taxed to pay for it , it really doesn't bother me. On the contrary I fully support it. $50k of debt forgiveness is a good start but doesn't go far enough. College should be 100% tuition free to any citizen or permanent resident (legal or not) in the United States. The only limiting factor should be in passing the entrance exam to get in.

Education increases incomes, which in turn increases purchasing power. This increased purchasing power creates much more tax revenue, especially sales tax revenue, which then covers the cost of education. And that's before we even get to income taxes.

For a similar reason I also support a UBI (and to go along with that, a removal of the minimum wage).

Take care of peoples needs. There is absolutely zero harm to society if someone wants to live a basic lifestyle and not contribute a whole lot. So long as the path to improving yourself is free of any sorts of barriers to entry. Then whoever wants to do better can, with nothing holding them back. Those who don't, don't have to.

a reply to: Aazadan

Unless you think the state should step in and help people make better choices.

I do not. Never have. Never said so.

Schools teach whatever there is demand for.

Who do you think is driving the "demand" for degrees in Canadian Studies, Assyriology, or Puppet Arts? There are no Canadian puppet conglomerates out there screaming for degreed workers.

The demand comes from those paying for the degree. Not from the business world. It's universities making money from those with a skewed sense of the world being sold snake oil by the colleges and loan industry. A business in and of itself.

However, to my point, people who design/build/repair things needed in our technological world are not going anywhere. To the OP's point, the colleges and loan industry would love the state stepping in to ensure a future for their business model. And as you've said yourself:

...people tend to not like those outcomes.

jhfc.duke.edu...
drama.uconn.edu...
www.brown.edu...

a reply to: Aazadan

You’re not. You may but # happens. I just closed big deal. Tens of millions. Coal. I’d take 1 of those uneducated mfs over 100 guys like you into any arena. Big deal big money big implications big ROI for all involved. You’re not martyr far from it. In fact most pay back at interest on loans without taking food and and housing subsidies. Most start paying into system 15 years before you. You’re the freeloader here. Education does not result in net tax gain thus debt and loan bubble. Everything you say is # and amateur hour.

a reply to: ABNARTY

The demand comes from people that wish to study such things. I do think that some degrees should be marked supplemental and only allow for graduation with the completion of a degree that is more likely to support someone though.

That said, it’s not like we should have a society where things like Canadian studies aren’t studied. In some amount such a degree is beneficial.

a reply to: Aazadan

The demand comes from people that wish to study such things.
[/quote

Um...that's what I said. I will assume this is agreement.

That said, it’s not like we should have a society where things like Canadian studies aren’t studied. In some amount such a degree is beneficial.

I agree. If you pay for it, it's your call in a free country. To the OP's point, making the tax payer supplement a tsunami of Canadian Studies majors is not sound. And if it does come to pass, I am opening a University for Canadian Puppet Science degrees. I need a means to recoup my fleeced tax dollars.

a reply to: ABNARTY

Yes it’s agreement on that point. If people wish to study something like that, and there is ample demand to support the program then I don’t see a problem.

That said, I feel that degrees which only offer marginal employment which I would define as only qualifying someone to become a professor in that subject (history and English are notorious for this) or that have very limited job opportunity which I would define as the degree produces more than 200% of the job openings available per year needs to be considered a non degree bearing program unless paired with a good minor or a more lucrative dual major.

a reply to: Aazadan

Makes sense.

So it should read

"Free Indoctrination"

This isnt about wanting to educate the youth, this is about replacing every soul in this country with a progressive/socialist parrot.

a reply to: SailorJerry

The School of Hard Knocks is Cheaper , and you Really do Learn a lot More.............

originally posted by: Zanti Misfit
a reply to: SailorJerry

The School of Hard Knocks is Cheaper , and you Really do Learn a lot More.............

Military and tradeschools I always say, and on the job training in a field you are interested in is worth more than any degree IMHO

Medical professions are an exception

a reply to: SailorJerry

So if education is indoctrination, what is it when people shun education, seek out misinformation, and come to believe that?