WAR: Patriot Act II. Update

Muaddib asks Sofi for clarifications,

Can you provide more information about these tanks used to disperse a peaceful protest in the US?....

You didnt REALLY think Sofi would come back and address your request for a thread that was dekunked by S.O. do you? Im not sure WHY she would even cite this fallicy unless its to continue to attract like thinking minds that dont ask the real questions and instead only believe what they want to about this incident. Yet another Sofi alleged plot with no bases in reality.
Notice how Sofi conveniantly skipped over responding, i feel its the new tactic to just avoid admitting the reality of the questions being asked about her credibillity. She WONT respond because there is no defence for false allegations.

Thats just wierd also questions sofi's sources,

Did you check your links?

LMAO, oh you mean your asking Sofi to do better by using a non "bush bash bias only" site as support for her argument on #1?
Link 2 kinda worked, i found and read the entire debunked thread that Sofi is STILL trying to whip up those willing to believe in trumped up, non substantionated, and in this case refuted accusations.
Your not saying that in link #4 Sofi tried to link unrelated things in some type of empirical guesswork do you? Trying to connect the dots from one idea to the other is yet another "diversionary support" tactic that seems to be in vouge around ATS latley. dont look to close at my allegations, just look over here and be distracted by trying to equate unrelated things together! Thats using the ole noggin eh?

Ahh Sofi,
Yet again you raise a good topic but allow your slanted zeal to misdirect you and others twords a Bash fest.
believe it or not, i AGREE with your basic contention that the patact has things that need to be questioned, but also dont see your blame being levied at the right targets again.

Sofi casts a condemnation here,

Gonzales does not respect the law. He is the kind of lawyer that looks for loopholes and ways around laws.

While you did cite some examples where someones OPINION could be formed to support your contentions,
the reality of it is that being criticized and being found guilty of wrong doing are entirely seperate things, and nowhere do i see where there has been more than questions asked...no diciplinary actions, no results, only opinionated discussions. Do you know this man to say such things about how he feels about the law or determine how he practices it, or is this one of those extrapolations based upon little more evidence than opinionated scuttlebutt?

Im not for Pat Act II being made permanent, if as a temporary thing like the first one, ill go along for now....but i agree, im not willing to permantly let the feds have as much leeway as they have over citizens once the need for it is reduced.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
You weren't affected by PA1. No one here was. No freedoms were taken away from you.

Even if you were right about this, it would be a matter of principle. Suppose the government wanted to surgically implant a little bit of explosives next to your heart, but it was only intended to be detonated if you were in the process of committing a violent crime- would you go for that? Of course not. Our rights are absolute and not to be compromised, no matter how innocent the explanation.

You're not right though. The police have been busily building precedent for use fo the PA against non-terrorists, including any retard who plays with a laser pointer and gang members. Gang members are bad no doubt, but the legal definition is pretty broad. You van have a 2 or 3 man "gang" in California for example.


Let me run a little something by you, and you've got my word this is a true story. About 10 years ago this cop my mom knew tried to rape her. She got away from him, went to the papers, caused a big problem. The local PD started tailing her around town and she starts getting messages on her page that just say 187. The police threatened to leak an embarrassing incident from her past to the papers if she didn't shut up. In the end, we had to move to the next county to get away from all this crap before something bad happened, because a little research proved that a couple of people who created scandals for the Police Department in Indio, California have mysteriously turned up dead just a couple years after their respective incidents.
Can you imagine what would have happened to my mom if there had been a patriot act? All those cops would have had to do was claim that I had some gang affiliation, and since anti-terrorism laws not intended for that purpose are now being applied to that crime as well, they'd be able to target my family with the PA and enjoy a much wider latitude in harrassing us.

Vagabond,
Ill take your "trust me its a real story" at face value....
BUT,
your comparrison is false
Your trying to say that because people were murdered (you allege by police) for causing trouble with the police, that it would be easier to "dissapear" someone under Pat Act....

killing you and getting away with it is a far far cry from having to explain to your superior exactly why you need to be held under the Pat Act, as well as to then try and justify this to the family/friends yours who will be looking for your release..
Basically murder is something that is hidden, even under the Pat Act, someone is going to have to be given good damn reasons why your detained under it....

By the time the lawyers figure out how all the pieces fit together we'll be dead meat.

exactly

[edit on 3-3-2005 by andy1033]

Originally posted by CazMedia


killing you and getting away with it is a far far cry from having to explain to your superior exactly why you need to be held under the Pat Act, as well as to then try and justify this to the family/friends yours who will be looking for your release..
Basically murder is something that is hidden, even under the Pat Act, someone is going to have to be given good damn reasons why your detained under it....

This is where you are wrong Caz. With the patriot act and is sequential ammendments, the patriot act allows for you to be held without representation and without being charged with anything. So where is the accountability in that?

And don't forget that the vagueness of the directives are also going to be twisted for use,
IN THE WAR ON DRUGS...

because, just like the TV commercials say:
"if you do drugs, you are a terrorist"

i am sorry, but that just made 20%-30% of all americans "terrorists".
by the very loose definition... And i don't agree...

and of course never mind that our own government intellegence agencies have been very involved in pushing crack on the urban youth...
oh, but that was before 9-11... (that we know of)

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
Muaddib...

i got a good one for ya...

just saw this actual breaking story:
TONIGHT on KFOR breaking news (oklahoma)...

a young OU student is now on the suspected terrorist list because he made a joke on a joke/blog website about asking for $1 donations of money on the internet,to hire an assasin to replace the president with a MONKEY...
the FBI visited him for an interrogation tonight...
..................

Lazarus, the problem is that jokes were not really paid that much attention in the past either, unfortunately 9/11 happened... How do you know when a terrorist is actually using a joke to actually talk about something he/she is going to do?....

It is simple, too many people think that the law is something they don't have to take seriously... well, it is a wake up call, we were taken with our pants down in 9/11, now our government agencies are trying their hardest never again to be taken with our pants down. You can make jokes about anything else....why make jokes about terrorist acts knowing that 9/11 happened?....

i don't ever remember my friends in high school or college making those kind of jokes...and we made jokes....so why are some kids starting to make these sick jokes now?.... it is a form of rebellion, thinking they can get away with it and disrespect the law, but as i said....unfortunately 9/11 happened...

[edit on 3-3-2005 by Muaddib]

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Here's the scoop on what's really happening, how it all works together - and why our governments don't want anyone to know what's going on behind the scenes.

In the USA, the Patriot Act works in concert with NAFTA and NORTHCOM. NAFTA and NORTHCOM are "continental" plans - and create a kind of "over-government" that applies to all of North America. The Patriot Act is the "open door" allowing the security component of these plans to be implemented in the USA.

Patriot Act II


NAFTA is the North American Free Trade Agreement. In its original form, this agreement broke through the traditional boundaries and redefined 'trade' - for the first time, information and services were defined as trade items and controlled by trade laws created and written by international corporations. By NAFTA's terms, our governments must negotiate directly with corporations, and the corporations are calling the shots.

NAFTA is about to be expanded - the expansion was scheduled as part of the original agreement. The original NAFTA agreement demanded a "harmonization" of laws and regulation in the USA, Canada and Mexico - meaning that each country's laws had to be modified and made the same so as not to interfere with business or cut into profits. For example, immigration and security will be defined as trade items under the new NAFTA. The final harmonization deadline is coming up.

Before the "leftist takeover" of South America, NAFTA's architects were planning to create the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) and expand NAFTA over the whole northern hemisphere. Now the focus is on North America and finalizing the last stages of all the agreements, negotiations and plans.

"Combining these two powers into one agreement will give unequalled new rights to the transnational corporations of the hemisphere to compete for and even challenge every publicly funded service of its governments, including health care, education, social security, culture and environmental protection."

NAFTA, GATTS and the Free Trade Area of the Americas


Also see: North American Security and Prosperity

Security v/s Sovereignty: The Evolution of Public Opinion After 9/11 (pdf)

THE FUTURE OF SECURITY AND DEFENCE COOPERATION IN NORTH AMERICA

A Blueprint for NAFTA (pdf)

The Tug-of-War: The Sovereignty/Security Dilemma (pdf)

NORTHCOM is the US military command for North America. In the event of any national emergency - like an epidemic or terrorist attack - NORTHCOM will assume military command over all US agencies like FEMA and the FBI, plus civil authorities and policing. Under emergency conditions, NORTHCOM's first priority likely will be to ensure NAFTA's continued smooth functioning - to protect international corporations operating in North America.

NORTHCOM. U.S. Northern Command – new combatant command assigned to defend the United States and support military assistance to civil authorities.

www.defenselink.mil...

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"On April 17, 2002, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld announced the formation of the Northern Command, or NorthCom...

Secretary Rumsfeld stated that NorthCom will "…help the department better deal with natural disasters, attacks on U.S. soil, or other civil difficulties. It will provide for a more coordinated military support to civil authorities such as FBI, FEMA and state and local governments." "

www.ccc.nps.navy.mil...

The Patriot Act "harmonizes" US civil liberties downward to be in line with Mexico's. (Canada has her own problems.)

The public rationale for establishing a military police state in North America is "combating the terrorist threat" - and/or dealing with "natural disasters" and "other civil difficulties." Basically, they've covered all the angles.

The current scare-monerging with its focus on international terrorism is a standard diversionary tactic designed to keep America's eyes off the home front. The added benefit is that "the terrorist threat" also can serve as a publicly acceptable reason to implement military command over civil authorities, and establish a police state in the USA.

In the words of a famous American, "You ain't seen nothin yet."



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[edit on 3-3-2005 by soficrow]

[edit on 3-3-2005 by soficrow]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
ThatsJustWeird - will you please Define "Terrorism" for me since the Government hasn't yet?

Main Entry: ter·ror·ism
Pronunciation: 'ter-&r-"i-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the unlawful use or threat of violence esp. against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion
2 : violent and intimidating gang activity

Would you say that a "Terrorist Organization" is say perhaps, I don't know... ANYONE that the REPUBLICANS don't like or are out to get for what ever reason!?!

....when all else fails make it a Democrat vs. Republican thing.
Do you think all FBI, CIA, DHS, etc. agents are republicans?

Please spare me the "Do you have sometime to hide" wrap - I have RIGHTS - God Given & Constitutional Rights -

I'm pretty sure I said that concerning the encryption...
Why use encyrption if you have nothing to hide?

I do NOT want the Government to treat me like a Baby & Monitor every Aspect of my Life & I certainly do not them to have these Totalitarian Powers which they will more than likely abuse!

Do people honestly think that the PA2 will give the gov new powers? Or allow them to do things they haven't been doing already?
Well...it won't.
Stuff will just be more open (and on paper).

One more point and I will let it soak in for awhile...

sofi is handling the facts (good job, but test those links)

so i will examine the effects that are already evident...

The FBI and nearly every other agency has been in massive hiring mode...
they are taking applicants that they would not have taken before, due to the shear massive need of numbers to monitor all these "threats"

when you do that, quality suffers...

you end up with a bunch of cowboy newbies that are running around trying to brown nose up the ladder, to earn the few promotions that are given...

this leads to a lot of loose cannons... guys that are willing to risk violating rights to get the bust... (and commendation)

that is the very situation that my friend was involved in...
(BTW,... even though the local PD and Sheriff have called him to apologize and remove any scuff from his record.... the FBI cowboy that led the investigation, refuses to even speak to him...
he just cusses at him, threatens him with false charges, and then hangs up the phone...

also BTW... he can't sue them... his lawyer said that their actions were protected by "THE PATRIOT ACT" ...
whether his lawyer truly knows this, or is just afraid to try... doesn't matter... it is scaring lawyers away from lawsuits agains't government agencies....
and that is one of the few oversights that the citizens have...

Patriot act 1 was to SOME PART needed... but why are we worried about a small window, when we are leaving the front door wide open?

seems awfully weird that they are worried about making surveilance/wiretaps much easier (barely even needing cause).
but Airports are now searching passengers on a voluntary basis (using "anti profiling methods") and our borders still have huge gaps...
voluntary searches thread


protecting Americans is NOT the main purpose of the patriot act, or else they would have "closed the doors" and put a lock on them... rather than worry about "caulk around the windows"

the government wanted more control over dissention... pure and simple

Originally posted by marg6043
Muaddib right after the 9/11 we all agree that anti-terrorist laws were necessary not only in the US but all over the world.

We are fighting terrorism that is not doubt about it.
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Do you think we do? I am not sure about that if ain't broken why fixed, unless is something behind the power increase.

I guess I am just one of those paranoid citizens that doesn't like anybody tampering with our constitution, after all we are not the enemy we are just the citizens.

Marg, the whole world is trying to find ways on how to deal with terrorism, and the whole world is setting up new laws on exactly how to deal with this threat.

The article from the BBC is an old one, but I am pretty sure that they have also changed some of the laws to better deal with terrorists.

As i read the article from BBC, i couldn't help but notice also how the reporter tried to make it sound as if these laws in Europe are differen from the ones in the US. In the article the reporter says and I quote;

They will enable police and prosecutors in any part of the EU to arrest suspects anywhere else on the continent and put them on trial promptly.

The reporter is assuming that the terrorists will be put on trial promptly, but as i read "the plan" i saw no reference at all to "prompt trials". So reading the facts about the article one can only conclude that the reporter must have made an assumption, if not he/she would have presented evidence in the plan where it says there will be prompt trials for suspected terrorists.

Here is an excerpt delineating the plan in 2001.

The plan:-


All 15 EU states are signing up to a common definition of terrorism. This is needed to make the new police and judicial powers effective across an area with a population of nearly 400 million people. Later all the EU applicant states in eastern Europe and the Mediterranean will sign up too.

The EU will create a system of "pan-European arrest warrants". This will mean that a court in Spain or Italy can issue a warrant for a suspect in, say, Germany or Britain, for any of a wide range of serious offences. Then the authorities in the country where the suspect lives only needs to confirm the person's identity, and he or she should be handed over within a few weeks. Appeals procedures which can now result in delays of several years in extradition cases will be curtailed and loopholes closed.

Minimum penalties, some more severe than at present, will be agreed among all EU states. The European parliament wants Europol to be transformed into a cross-border police force with powers similar to those of the FBI in the US.

Europol has already set up a new Anti-terrorism Task Force to identify suspects and potential targets in Europe and it will receive much more complete intelligence from police and security services in memberstates. The whole system will be administered by "Eurojust", which should clear away obstacles as the EU takes over new authority in law and order areas which until now have been jealously guarded as the preserve of national sovereignty.

The EU should sign an accord with the United States to remove the current maze of obstacles to close cooperation with US authorities in investigating terrorist suspects and extraditing them to America.
EU heads of government should approve all this at a summit in Laeken near Brussels on December 14-15th.

Excerpted from.
news.bbc.co.uk...

I will try to find out more information about this European plan, and see if there have been any changes to it, but i am pretty sure there have been changes, as this is a new system to combat terrorism, as they are learning on the way, the European states are probably changing the law in order to better deal with terrorist threats. It is the way the law has been changing throughout the course of human history.




If you read one of the sections in the plan it says

Appeals procedures which can now result in delays of several years in extradition cases will be curtailed and loopholes closed.

So in the case that someone is found to have some connections with terrorism, they are saying they will close all loopholes and appeal procedures will be curtailed...quite the contrary to what the reporter said.

There will be a prompt extradition, but people won't be able to use appeals or any other loopholes anymore like they used to in the past.


---edited for errors and to add comment---



[edit on 3-3-2005 by Muaddib]

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The Patriot Act is not primarily about dealing with terrorism - it is a mechanism to help institute a "continental over-government" in North America.

Both NAFTA and NORTHCOM establish the terms for this over-government - see my post above.



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Originally posted by soficrow
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The Patriot Act is not primarily about dealing with terrorism - it is a mechanism to help institute a "continental over-government" in North America.

Both NAFTA and NORTHCOM establish the terms for this over-government - see my post above.

They do not soficrow...we have already seen that you exagerate and post information that has been debunked already and found to be false....

I already posted the limitations that Northcom has, which they post on their own website...they have limitations. Northcom was not set up to take control over the country in case of natural or man made disasters...they are there to help public agencies soficrow....and they themselves say in their own website, the first responder public agencies are the ones who would be in charge....

In the case of intelligence, Northcom provides a venue to get information from around the world about terrorists.... i am pretty sure it also compliments the European plan...here is an excerpt from the plan which the EU revised in 2003....

The attacks of September 11, 2001 led to unprecedented co-operation within the EU and between the EU and the United States.

· EU Heads of State and governments approved an action plan on terrorism(September 21, 2001). Since then, the fight against all forms of terrorism remains a priority for the EU.

· EU Member States have gained considerable expertise and experience in fighting terrorism,which they are sharing and developing with their U.S. partners, in particular on Islamic extremist terrorist groups. EU and U.S. efforts are joint and complementary, and cover a widerange of areas, in particular: intelligence, law enforcement, judicial cooperation and transport security. The threat has far from disappeared, but important achievements have been registered.

Excerpted from.
europa.eu.int...



They even mention the following in that same link.

· The EU-U.S. Agreement on Mutual Legal Assistance1
· The EU-U.S. Agreement on Extradition 2

· In December 2001 a first strategic co-operation agreement was concluded between Europol and the U.S. A further agreement between Europol and the U.S. law enforcement agencies of 20 December 2002 allows for the sharing of intelligence and personal data.

Excerpted from above link.

I guess we now know what Rumsfeld said in that quote of his which you obviously took out of context....

"(The plan) realigns and streamlines U.S. military structure to better address 21st century threats. For the first time, commanders' areas of operations cover the entire Earth."

- Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld

Excerpted from.
www.northcom.mil...

He mentions that because now we have an agreement with European countries, and probably other countries too to help each other to gather intelligence and extradite terrorists faster..... So, yes pretty much now the areas of operation cover the entire Earth because there has been an agreement with other countries to fight terrorism...

---edited for errors---

[edit on 3-3-2005 by Muaddib]

Here are once more the limitations of Northcom....

U.S. Northern Command is not the police auxiliary and does not supersede the "first responder" role of lead federal agencies.
..................

Given these parameters, U.S. Northern Command does not:

Create a new agency or military service (the command realigns and streamlines U.S. military structure to better address 21st century threats.)

Liaison directly with the Office of Homeland Security or the anticipated Department of Homeland Security. DoD conducts interagency liaison.

Conduct law enforcement operations (role of the U.S. Department of Justice)

Secure airports (role of Transportation Security Agency)

Secure borders (role of U.S Customs and Border Protection - CBP)

Provide "first responders" (role of federal, state and local community authorities, see state homeland security representatives.)

Train and maintain operational forces (the role of the various military services)

Plan or conduct homeland security in Hawaii (role of the U.S. Pacific Command)

Excerpted from.
www.northcom.mil...

Here is what Northcom does.

The command's mission is homeland defense and civil support, specifically:

Conduct operations to deter, prevent, and defeat threats and aggression aimed at the United States, its territories, and interests within the assigned area of responsibility; and

As directed by the President or Secretary of Defense, provide military assistance to civil authorities including consequence management operations.

Excerpted from.
www.northcom.mil...

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Serious thinkers - please, ignore the diversionary tactics and distraction. There is serious discussion here essential to the survival of US democracy.


Also FYI - the limitations established for NORTHCOM do NOT apply in a state of national emergency - under such conditions, NORTHCOM will assume the role of centralized military command over FEMA, the FBI and civil authorities.

This thread is about the potential for abuse of such broad authority, and the likelihood of NORTHCOM implementation.



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[edit on 3-3-2005 by soficrow]

Originally posted by soficrow
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Serious thinkers - please, ignore the diversionary tactics and distraction. There is serious discussion here essential to the survival of US democracy.

Diversionary?....oh boy....

Riiiiight soficrow......because people have a different opinion from you and can see through your exagerations and lies you call them diversionary...

Yeah, serious thinkers can see what the distractions and "diversionary tactics" are....

We are here to Deny Ignorance Soficrow...not embrace it....

Originally posted by soficrow
...........
Also FYI - the limitations established for NORTHCOM do NOT apply in a state of national emergency - under such conditions, NORTHCOM will assume the role of centralized military command over FEMA, the FBI and civil authorities.
...........

Where in the Northcom site does it say that?....

Please provide a quote and a link directly to that quote..

We need this kind of research, Muaddib

I have voted Muaddib for the Way Above Top Secret award.

This whole "plot" as outlined is so scary it needs to be researched. The amount of information we have been given is overwhelming. Unfortunately not all of the links work either. This makes it difficult to follow up on a point made.

We need to "bite" off one chunk at a time and take a good look at it. You have done a great job with this "chunk".

I am looking at the "600 Concentration camps on US soil" . After reading up on the prior threads I'm not sure any of it has been proved at all. Ats members looking at individually named sites have come up empty.

Currently I am looking at the alleged site in New Hampshire, somewhere around Lake Francis.

Originally posted by soficrow
........

This thread is about the potential for abuse of such broad authority, and the likelihood of NORTHCOM implementation.

And this thread was also "according to you" about military tanks being used against protesters....

If you had done enough serious research you would have found out that it had been debunked and found to be false, even from the information provided by some members who were there or had friends who were some of the protesters but decided to tell what really had happened....


Yep....diversionary tactics......

---edited for errors---

[edit on 3-3-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by soficrow
...........
Also FYI - the limitations established for NORTHCOM do NOT apply in a state of national emergency - under such conditions, NORTHCOM will assume the role of centralized military command over FEMA, the FBI and civil authorities.
...........

Where in the Northcom site does it say that?....

Please provide a quote and a link directly to that quote..

JEEZ.

I have posted and reposted this information. Learn to READ troll.

NORTHCOM. U.S. Northern Command – new combatant command assigned to defend the United States and support military assistance to civil authorities.

www.defenselink.mil...

..............

"On April 17, 2002, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld announced the formation of the Northern Command, or NorthCom...

Secretary Rumsfeld stated that NorthCom will "…help the department better deal with natural disasters, attacks on U.S. soil, or other civil difficulties. It will provide for a more coordinated military support to civil authorities such as FBI, FEMA and state and local governments." "

www.ccc.nps.navy.mil...

Now GO AWAY!



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