WAR: Patriot Act II. Update

Originally posted by SimpleTruth
..............
As long as we conduct only legal activities we'll have nothing to worry about huh? Well how about this. There is one case where a young boy was researching the brooklyn bridge for a project through the internet and the library, and the next thing he knows, he has feds up in his grill because they thought he was masterminding a plan to destroy it. A little kid! Wake up!

And where did this story come from? Where did you hear it or read it?

We need links please.

[edit on 2-3-2005 by Muaddib]

Quote: "*The Patriot Act* effectively *Dismantles the American Constitution* and the *Bill of Rights*."

Since our Idiotic Congress missed this the first time around when they passed the Patriot Act - If the Feds try a bid to Renew their over extended powers by Passing a Patriot 2 or the *"Domestic Security Act"* as they would more likely call it for Camouflage Purposes - we the REAL CITIZENS of the U.S.A. must actively hold their feet to the fire to ensure that we retain our Right & Liberties as Americans.

The Governments "War On Terror" is faulty in the context that "Terror" is nothing but an Over Powering Emotion - what’s next the "War on Fear"?

They never defined it - for the Gov: Criminal = Terrorist! So what happens when the Government starts calling NON-VIOLENT American Citizen Dissenters of Bad Government Policies = "Domestic Terrorists" - Drum Roll Please...
FACIST POLICE STATE GESTAPO - just what they blamed Saddam & Stalin & Mussolini & Hitler & Castro of being Dictators - because they were & so is Bush! The American Government sure has balls - how are they Complaining that "Putin is controlling the Media in Russia"! Have they ever watched Faux News Channel? This "War on Terror" is a Perpetual War that will never end - it is really being fought in the Media via Perception & Image - "Good Guys vs. Bad Guys".

This is why Bush's Invasion of Iraq Hurt the Administrations Credibility so much - Iraq was already effectively Contained & the Reasons given to justify Invasion were all BOGUS! Now it has become an issue of Corruption vs. Freedom & Democracy in the Arab World - only thing Corruption is a WORLD WIDE Phenomenon - yes it even Exists in Europe & America - imagine that!


[edit on 2-3-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 2-3-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 2-3-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

BTW, i also think that we actually had a member or two in these forums who were at that protest, or knew someone who was there. They took pictures which they posted, and told us what really had happened, according to them the media, and some people exagerated what had happened, but perhaps someone else can remember better about this.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Quote: "*The Patriot Act* effectively *Dismantles the American Constitution* and the *Bill of Rights*."

Since our Idiotic Congress missed this the first time around when they passed the Patriot Act - If the Feds try a bid to Renew their over extended powers by Passing a Patriot 2 or the *"Domestic Security Act"* as they would more likely call it for Camouflage Purposes - we the REAL CITIZENS of the U.S.A. must actively hold their feet to the fire to ensure that we retain our Right & Liberties as Americans.

How? Can we overwhelm them with awareness? Contain them with contempt?



.

Originally posted by Mahree
Homeland Security

link

If this explanation of FOIA has changed does anyone have the information about when or how?

the FOIA establishes the right to request records and to receive a response to the request. If a record cannot be released, the requestor is entitled to be told the reason for the denial. The requester also has a right to appeal the denial and, if necessary, to challenge it in court.

The requester must ask for existing records, described in a reasonable way. One cannot simply ask for informaiton.

Yes Mahree this has bothered me too.For instance in the case below Federal Procurement Data once available to the public for a nominal fee was privatized,transferred to GCE( Global Computer Enterprises, Inc.).

For 25 years, the clearest window into the murky world of federal contracting has been an obscure public database available to anyone for a nominal fee. No longer. Under a new deal approved by the White House, the government's voluminous compilation of contracting information has been turned over to a contractor.

Established by an act of Congress in 1979, the Federal Procurement Data System was a rare island of public information, the only complete record of federal contracts. Using the database, journalists, auditors and federal investigators could review the million or so agreements with corporations Uncle Sam signed each year. They could find the companies reaping the largest awards, track the rise in no-bid deals, and measure the recent drive to replace federal employees with corporate employees. But under a new contract, the General Services Administration has now turned over responsibility for collecting and distributing information on government contracts to a beltway company called Global Computer Enterprises, Inc.

In signing the $24 million deal, the Bush Administration has privatized not only the collection and distribution of the data, but the database itself. For the first time since the system was established, the information will not be available directly to the public or subject to the Freedom of Information Act, according to federal officials. "It's a contractor owned and operated system," explains Nancy Gunsauls, a project manager at GCE. "We have the data."

With the compiled database under private control, journalists, corporate consultants, and even federal agencies will be barred from independently searching copies of it. Instead, GCE has pledged only to produce a set of public reports required by the government, and to provide limited access to the entire database for a yet-to-be-determined fee.

Public Information, Private Profit?

Think the fee is $2500 now, not sure if the public has to pay that though.Federal Procurement Data for now, wonder what's next?

GCE Fee

Originally posted by soficrow

How? Can we overwhelm them with awareness? Contain them with contempt?

.

You know even my husband was asking me this week as what can we do to make our elected officials to listen to us.

Sometimes is the right amount of money what makes it work, if you are from an interest group and have the right amount of money then you can make them listen.

Our city hired a lobbyist to work for keeping our base open, in our best interest but it takes money to find somebody to do it.

Can you believe it you can hire a lobbyist to make officials listen.

Very simply - Our Congressmen & Senators work for US - the Citizens of U.S.A. - we Vote for them - we give them Money for their Campaigns & we Pay their Salaries with our Tax Dollars! Just who is coming up with this Gestapo Fascist crap? It's the Justice Department with the Blessing of the Bush Administration. So all we have to do is review any Drafts & make it known to the Legislative Branch that the Following is an UNCONSTITUTIONAL VIOLATION & that they better not pass any Law with the Following Language in it OR ELSE!

Drafts of Patriot Act 2/Dometic Security Act have already Leaked onto the Web - that how I know that this following offensive Repugnant crap is in there:

SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a National Database of "suspected terrorists" and radically expand the database to *include anyone associated with *suspected terrorist groups* and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as "terrorist."* These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal Government.
SECTION 122 restates the government's newly announced power of "*surveillance without a court order*."

SECTION 123 restates that the Government *no longer needs warrants* and that the investigations can be a giant dragnet-style sweep described in press reports about the Total Information Awareness Network. One passage reads, "thus the focus of domestic surveillance may be less precise than that directed against more conventional types of crime."

SECTION 303 sets up National DNA database of suspected "terrorists". The database will also be used to "stop other unlawful activities." It will share the information with state, local and foreign agencies for the same purposes.

SECTION 404 makes it a crime for a terrorist or "other criminals" to *use encryption* in the commission of a (So-Called) crime.

Among its most severe problems, the bill:
Diminishes personal privacy by *removing checks on Government Power* specifically by:

A) Making it easier for the Government to initiate surveillance and wiretapping of U.S. citizens under the authority of the shadowy, top-secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. (Sections 101, 102 and 107)

B) Permitting the Government, under certain circumstances, to bypass the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court altogether and conduct *warrantless wiretaps and searches*. (Sections 103 and 104)

C) Sheltering federal agents engaged in illegal surveillance without a court order from criminal prosecution if they are following orders of high Executive Branch officials. (Section 106)

D) Creating a new category of “domestic security surveillance” that permits electronic eavesdropping of entirely domestic activity under looser standards than are provided for ordinary criminal surveillance under
Title III. (Section 122)

E) Using an ****Overbroad Definition of Terrorism**** that could cover some protest tactics as a new predicate for criminal wiretapping and other electronic surveillance. (Sections 120 and 121)

F) Providing for general surveillance orders covering multiple functions of high tech devices, and by further expanding pen register and trap and trace authority for intelligence surveillance of United States Citizens and lawful permanent residents. (Sections 107 and 124)

G) *Creating a new & separate crime of using Encryption Technology* that could add five years to any sentence for crimes committed with a computer. (Section 404)

H) Expanding nationwide search warrants so they *do not have to meet even the Broad Definition of Terrorism in the USA PATRIOT Act.*
(Section 125)

I) Giving the ***Government secret access to Credit Reports without consent and without judicial process.*** (Section 126)

J) Terminating court-approved limits on police spying, which were initially put in place to prevent ***McCarthy-style law enforcement persecution based on political or religious affiliation.*** (Section 312)

K) Gagging grand jury witnesses in terrorism cases to bar them from discussing their testimony with the media or the general public, thus preventing them from defending themselves against rumor-mongering and denying the public information it has a right to receive under the
First Amendment. (Section 206)

*Undermines Fundamental Constitutional Rights of Americans under Overbroad Definitions of “terrorism” and “terrorist organization” or under a terrorism pretext* specifically by:

L) Stripping even native-born Americans of all of the Rights of United States Citizenship if they provide support to *"unpopular organizations"* labeled as "*terrorist*" by our Government, even if they support only the lawful activities of such organizations, *allowing them to be indefinitely imprisoned in their own country as undocumented aliens.* (Section 501)

M) Further Criminalizing Association – without any intent to *commit specific terrorism crimes* – by broadening the crime of providing material support to "terrorism", even if support is not given to any *organization listed as a terrorist organization by the Government.*
(Section 402)



[edit on 2-3-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 2-3-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Well, couldn't find the thread in the forums...but i found information from another site, the links from the original stories are not to be found anywhere, except there is a video of what happened.

i actually remember most of the story right, except for there being kids in the tanks.... The two tanks involved in this incident were part of a veteran's day parade, and they got lost, they circled twice a block, and stopped to ask directions, because they were not from LA and had no idea of where they were at. All i could find of a reference to this was from other conspiracy sites, which i can't post because of the rules...and yes, people do have to follow rules or face consecuences....what a concept huh?.....unless the rules have changed and we can post links to otehr conspiracy sites.

[edit on 2-3-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
lol

You people are HILLARIOUS!!!!

That's why I love this site. You all definately know how to entertain.


You weren't affected by PA1. No one here was. No freedoms were taken away from you.

I can understand your apathy... no sleeping dogs being kicked here right?
except for a little something called desensitization ... i might even agree...

it means that as rights are bent or removed altogther, a slow "stretching" of the laws will occur...until... well... you know the saying...
total power corrupts totally...

the precidence is already being established in regard to the war on drugs.

remember those commercials... "if you buy a joint, you just blew up some civilians somewhere" yadayada (makes me wonder how the cia sleep at night)...

they are putting the direct connection between the war on terrorism and war on drugs... meaning the patriot act can be used to fight the war on drugs...

and that, my friend, is a dish that has been served to this country many times,and has ALWAYS been turned down...

the people didn't want it... they resisted it everytime as a waste of time and assets for a goal that wasn't even proven to help. Now it has been hidden in the middle of the terrorism sandwich, and they don't even know they are eating it.

(if i am the only one that can see that wave coming, then maybe they are smarter than i give them credit for)

now as to the patriot act not affecting the "innocent" yet, MCBS... pure mad cow manure... the power is already corrupting...

tell my friend that...
He didn't do a thing wrong except get caught in the middle of a fight between an auto maker and their dealerships (a dispute over the ownership of some autoparts) ... The group of 12+ officers of various state and FED agencies stormed his house. wife, children and all, ruby ridge style. (assault rifles, body armor,ect)
There was nothing even remotely related to terrorism, but they acted like he had no rights to even know why they were there...
they acted invinceable (with their new power)
when a people fear their government it is tyranny...
when a government fears the people, it is freedom...

while the patriot act does protect us from "them" it also seems to needlessly include the elements that protect our government from "us"

why? what are they afraid of? us?... good, then all is as it should be...
so why do they need to add new restrictions to it? ain't it working already?

.
.


Excellent work Seraphim_Serpente.

Off the top - OMIGAWD. Starting with genetic surveillance and moving right along.

But we have guys on this site who insist it's all okay if we just 'behave ourselves.' Right.

I need to come back in the morning when my heads clear and fresh.


.

[edit on 2-3-2005 by soficrow]

Should we see what the European countries, many of which are socialist and liberals, are doing also about terrorism and laws?

This is from 2001, and it shows that the US is not the only country coming up with these kind of new laws agaisnt terrorism.....

European Union ministers in Brussels are to approve plans for a radical extension of EU powers aimed at protecting Europe against terrorism.

The drastic new measures follow evidence that suspected Islamic terrorist cells were intending to use chemical weapons or bombs to attack high-profile targets in Paris, Brussels and Strasbourg.

They will enable police and prosecutors in any part of the EU to arrest suspects anywhere else on the continent and put them on trial promptly.

But justice and interior ministers are to push the plan through with little public debate.

Civil rights groups are warning that the meeting may lay the foundations of turning Europe into a police state.

Excerpted from.
news.bbc.co.uk...

and the response from Humans Right Watch.

Human Rights Watch in Brussels says the anti-terrorism measures will allow the EU authorities to harass and prosecute those who take part in legitimate protests

[edit on 2-3-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Very simply - Our Congressmen & Senators work for US - the Citizens of U.S.A. - we Vote for them - we give them Money for their Campaigns & we Pay their Salaries with our Tax Dollars! Just who is coming up with this Gestapo Fascist crap? It's the Justice Department with the Blessing of the Bush Administration. So all we have to do is review any Drafts & make it known to the Legislative Branch that the Following is an UNCONSTITUTIONAL VIOLATION & that they better not pass any Law with the Following Language in it OR ELSE!

Any links to action groups on this? ...Or we just flood Congress and the Senate with email and letters?


All the stuff you posted is mindboggling - but I am fixated on the idea of a genetic hit list and genetic survellance.

SECTION 303 sets up National DNA database of suspected "terrorists". The database will also be used to "stop other unlawful activities." It will share the information with state, local and foreign agencies for the same purposes.

Time to stand up and fight - with letters and emails.

Muaddib right after the 9/11 we all agree that anti-terrorist laws were necessary not only in the US but all over the world.

We are fighting terrorism that is not doubt about it.

But now in this time, we have already a patriot act that has been so far OK on helping keep the country safe.

The question is do we need the government to enact a revised Partiot act that will increased the power of certain offices of the government?

Do you think we do? I am not sure about that if ain't broken why fixed, unless is something behind the power increase.

I guess I am just one of those paranoid citizens that doesn't like anybody tampering with our constitution, after all we are not the enemy we are just the citizens.

Muaddib...

i got a good one for ya...

just saw this actual breaking story:
TONIGHT on KFOR breaking news (oklahoma)...

a young OU student is now on the suspected terrorist list because he made a joke on a joke/blog website about asking for $1 donations of money on the internet,to hire an assasin to replace the president with a MONKEY...
the FBI visited him for an interrogation tonight...

not a rib raising funny joke, but not worthy of ruining his life forever...
now he will have wiretaps and surveilance for the rest of his life...(or until the partriot act is repealed).

it was a joke... yeah, not a good idea... but it was a KID making a joke...
(i have witnessed similiar jokes on this website)

if you don't see that as a crackdown on critism, i don't know what is...
expect me to post a thread on it tommorow, after they update the news website...(i would like to know more myself)

and for the record, everything I have ever said about our wonderful present administration was just in jest, and playing the devils advocate...for the record...

Originally posted by soficrow
Freedom of the press.

News gathering to be illegal under Patriot Act 2


Freedom to dissent.

Armored Tanks Dispel Anti-War Protest in USA


Freedom of information.

"The file you are seeking does not exist."

Freedom of privacy on the Inernet.


Department of Homeland Security Announces Appointments to Data Privacy and Integrity Advisory Committee

Did you check your links?
Link 1- False. Your link goes to a link which goes to anti Bush commentary. Not facts.
Link 2- ?? There was nothing there. Probably because it hasn't happened.
Link 3 - N/A
Link 4 - "This Committee will provide the Department with important recommendations on how to further the Department’s mission while protecting the privacy of personally identifiable information of citizens and visitors of the United States"
What does this have to do with PAII?

But. Have you studied history? Specifically, the history of the rise of fascism in Nazi Germany?

Yes I have (history buff). Why?

You, my friend, are an idiot.

Nice. We can name call now!? Last time I did it was in jest and I got a 'warn' for it.

First of all, why should we listen to someone who doesn't even have the mind to decide whether they're for or against something?

Some of the stuff is needed, some of the stuff is unneccesary, and some of it is just rehashing or enforcing laws already in place. So no I'm not going to say I'm totally for everything in there, just as I'm not totally against everything in there.

Secondly, there have been many abuses of the PA already with things that have NOTHING to do with terrorism.

Maybe you're new to the country or whatever but...
There have been abuses by law enforcement agencies before the PA, there will be when this fad dies out....

Btw, it was passed in the first few weeks immediately following 9-11 at the latest.

And what did you do after it was passed
Wait-

Let me guess

hmmm
The same things you did before it was passed.

As long as we conduct only legal activities we'll have nothing to worry about huh?

No, no....you're right.

I have frieds at DHS, and they just go through phone books randomly picking names of people to harass. Because they have nothing better to do.

Seraphim_Serpente could you provide a link.
Btw did you post the ones you thought were bad??

SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a National Database of "suspected terrorists" and radically expand the database to *include anyone associated with *suspected terrorist groups* and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as "terrorist."*

They already have something like this (even before 9/11). So I'm guessing they're going to improve it?
Or maybe it's really not in there. Who knows?

These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal Government.

In other words. They're replacing taking fingerprints with DNA.....

SECTION 404 makes it a crime for a terrorist or "other criminals" to *use encryption* in the commission of a (So-Called) crime.

Ok you got me here. I honestly can not see anything wrong with this. This should be enforced to the fullest. "so-called" crime? You don't consider terrorism a crime?
And if you're using encryption, you're trying to hide something, no?

The rest of the stuff you're really going to have to provide links.
This may be true though
"Making it easier for the Government to initiate surveillance and wiretapping of U.S. citizens under the authority of the shadowy, top-secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court."
Which is one of the things I think can get abused easily.

Originally posted by Vajrayana

Originally posted by Mahree
Homeland Security

link

If this explanation of FOIA has changed does anyone have the information about when or how?

Yes Mahree this has bothered me too.For instance in the case below Federal Procurement Data once available to the public for a nominal fee was privatized,transferred to GCE( Global Computer Enterprises, Inc.).


Established by an act of Congress in 1979, the Federal Procurement Data System was a rare island of public information, the only complete record of federal contracts.

....snip.....

the General Services Administration has now turned over responsibility for collecting and distributing information on government contracts to a beltway company called Global Computer Enterprises, Inc.

In signing the $24 million deal, the Bush Administration has privatized not only the collection and distribution of the data, but the database itself. For the first time since the system was established, the information will not be available directly to the public or subject to the Freedom of Information Act, according to federal officials. "It's a contractor owned and operated system," explains Nancy Gunsauls, a project manager at GCE. "We have the data."

With the compiled database under private control, journalists, corporate consultants, and even federal agencies will be barred from independently searching copies of it. Instead, GCE has pledged only to produce a set of public reports required by the government, and to provide limited access to the entire database for a yet-to-be-determined fee.

Public Information, Private Profit?

Think the fee is $2500 now, not sure if the public has to pay that though.Federal Procurement Data for now, wonder what's next?

GCE Fee

This link is from the same source as you quoted in above. GCE fee

INPUT is First to Offer Certified Integration of New Federal Procurement Data

INPUT - February 18, 2005

As of December 31, 2004, GCE and GSA made the federal procurement data available to the public at no charge - a momentous occasion in its own right,” said Ray Muslimani, president of GCE. “Now, we are excited to see INPUT extend this access to its clients by tapping into the FPDS-NG data via Web services technology. FPDS-NG is unique in its ability to integrate directly with systems inside and outside of the federal government. Government users of the system and the public alike can gain equal accessibility and visibility into federal spending.”

Does this mean that the FOIA is still alive and well?

edit by Mahree for quote


[edit on 3/3/2005 by Mahree]

Muaddib - just to let you know - I am not against the Government fighting "Authentic Terrorism" - I am afraid of the Orwellian Scenario becoming REALITY in the not too soon Future. To be Honest - I DO NOT TRUST our Government & Big Corporations - I believe that they are Compulsive Liars & that they do not have our best Interest @ Heart. They have STILL not Adequately defined Terrorism & in my opinion are keeping in Purposely Vague! What is to stop them from using these new Anti-Terrorist Powers a PERMANENT PATRIOT ACT II would give them against AMERICAN CITIZENS? Lets say that Citizens are part of a Political or Religious Movement the Government Regime in Power Identifies as a Threat & so labels it "Domestic Terrorists" @ goes after them with a Vengeance! All Rights & Property stripped -> Go directly to Jail! This is called FACISM! Is this justified even though no Violence or Plan/Ideology of Violence was en-acted? Is Thought & Speach & Ideology going to now be labeled as "Crimes" if the Government does't like it - what about the First Amendment?

Study up on your History! Look up Senator McCarthy & "Un-American Activities". Look up the FBI's Co-Intel Pro Operation while you are at it - this stuff REALLY HAPPENED in AMERICA @ not too long ago to boot!


[edit on 3-3-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 3-3-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

ThatsJustWeird - will you please Define "Terrorism" for me since the Government hasn't yet?

Would you say that a "Terrorist Organization" is say perhaps, I don't know... ANYONE that the REPUBLICANS don't like or are out to get for what ever reason!?! Now do you get the drift? People are playing POLITICS with Terrorism! Please spare me the "Do you have sometime to hide" wrap - I have RIGHTS - God Given & Constitutional Rights - I do NOT want the Government to treat me like a Baby & Monitor every Aspect of my Life & I certainly do not them to have these Totalitarian Powers which they will more than likely abuse!

P.S. Want links just type "Patriot Act 2" & "Domestic Security Act" into Google - you will get PLENTY of Links! Come on guys please snap out of it!


[edit on 3-3-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

i say see ya later.that policy is a big screw up and most will not let it live again at the end of its term.i think canada gonna toss it out also.

Perhaps something like this...

Deutschland, Deutschland űber Alles, űber Alles unter den Sohne!

Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Idiot!