Black Hole wishful thoughts and the pictures of it...

a reply to: ParasuvO

You and Phage both actually explained nothing, with nothing and used math formulas and speculation while telling others that you cannot use mathematics and formulas.

Actually, we explained quite a bit... but perhaps I was a little over your head, so let me try it a different way.

A mathematical equation is a formula that gives a true result within a specific domain. The domain is the range of numbers where it is true. All equations have certain limitations on their domain... for instance, a logarithm can never be equal to zero, and neither can a divisor be equal to zero within a domain.

The equation for density is mass/volume. That equation is true within its domain, but that domain does not include zero as the divisor. The equation does not hold true for a volume of zero. If someone attempts to use the equation outside its domain, the result is garbage.

Whether or not you wish to accept that explanation is irrelevant; that is the way the language works. Math is math is math, and math does not care if you believe it or not; it will still be correct if used correctly. As for telling other they can't use formulas, where did I say that? I simply said the formulas and reasoning used are not applied correctly, which is a true statement since the equation is being applied outside its domain.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

F = GMm/r2

That equation is proof that mass does not equal gravity.

well... this equation says actually absolutely nothing about the universe and proves the nonsense in describing reality with math... I will explain.
but first, I come back to an example I like... how mathematics describes reality...

mathematically...
if there is a room with three persons inside, and five persons go out of that room, two more people need to go inside the room, for the room to be empty..
go you get it ??

now... F ( force... a word that means nothing real ) in this equation is a product of a mass, a gram ( with any multiplier to it ) multiplied with another gram and than divided by a distance multiplied by the same distance
m, the mass is something that is measured, same for the distance...

how do you measure?
you can do just two things, you can count, 1, 2,3..., and you can compare size of one physical "thing" to another thing
this is measurement...

it is very accurate with things you can take in your hand and handle with it, but it's nonsense if you try to do it with symbols... symbols that just stand for something you can not collect or touch, like energy or time for example.
there is no other way in the universe you can do a measurement, period !

so... how a gram was created and where it comes from ? ...from comparison, here on earth.
the illusion an electron or proton here on earth has the same mass elsewhere in the universe is a wish, nothing else... an assumption !
as so many made by physics.

lets dive deeper into the units...
m * m = m2 ( in units )
r2 is distance * distance

here comes the trick
...there are to different masses in this equation in terms of "number", a one "M" and the other one "m"... this is a problem, you always have to distinguish between them.
but in the derivation of this equation into the speed calculation of the centrifugal force
F = Mv2/r you just cancel one "m" as if they are equal in size...
and you calculate the orbiting velocity for a galaxy as
v = sqrt(Gm/r)
you can not do it... M and m is not the same!
but mathematical physics is doing it, and therefore,
the black hole "universe" is just one mass calculation...

now the force
F is gram over meter... doesn't matter how you look at it, a force is just a concept, there is nothing that has a physical property equal mass/distance

this concept of force is what is told us as something "acting" on us ( matter ), and even the concept of space time, which itself is just stupid as you can not take a distance between 2 charges, and than multiple it with counting that is depended on a background regularity ( constant periodic effect )
multiplying comparison with counting is a mathematical construct, not a real thing
what is 2 apples times or divided by a period ??

but let us go back to the F in F = GMm/r2 as it's a singularity in the black hole

F goes to infinity if the density is = Mass/Volume and the volume goes to 0 in a singularity
but F is the force that acts on distance, is it not ??
the calculated force ( gravity ) upon an object in orbit is calculated like this, no ??
so if F goes to infinity and F acts on distance, we do not exist, we are all inside the black hole
in the Newtonian world anyway..

now... Phage said

Light is not bent by mass. Spacetime is. One way to look at it is that, within the event horizon, light is trapped in an orbit around the singularity.

this is a another way to describe the idea that a black hole has mass so big, not even light can not escape ( if you look from the center of mass to the outside as escape velocity )
this is not what the math says, math says the gravity acceleration force is bigger then the speed of light...
whatever...

look at what I say.
every charge is a density in the field. +1 and -1 is 2.
the field strength is the separation between +1 and -1 divided by the distance between them,
but not the density of the field, it's additive and divided by distance.

also.. the speed of light is not constant, and you all know it, it is different in vacuum and slower in the air and slower in water and even slower in glass.
why ??
because every medium it propagates has different amount of charged particles it goes, more field... slower speed,
this is a fact and telling me the field has no influence on the speed of light is just stupid !

the more charges you have in one place there more dense is the field, the slower EM propagates
this is how light is bend, not because of "spacetime bending curvature", this is nonsense and I have told you why !!

an EM wave has a true dimensions, it is not a point like photon, photon is just a name for the mathematical energy calculation.
EM wave has a with of the charge displacement and a length of the displacement's period. due to the vector of its displacement, it is not homogeneous, so you have geometrically speaking two waves ( the slope in E intensity )
A transverse wave is a moving wave that consists of oscillations occurring perpendicular (right angled) to the direction of the charged particle movement, and a longitudinal wave in which the displacement of the charged particle is in the same direction as, or the opposite direction to, the direction of propagation of the wave.
As it propagates in the field, and the field has different density on different point in space, the field gradient changes.
Propagation of EM is slower in denser regions so it bends towards the bigger mass...

this is so simple...

the so called black hole is not a mathematical singularity but a very dense electric field.
nothing is "squished" into infinite density
this is why there are jets of mass escaping it, what would not be possible with gravity grater than the speed of light.

gravity comes from the field density gradient, as every charge particle is slower in the denser field, attracting other unlike particles...
but I think explaining it to you makes no sense as you hold to gravity as the MS is telling you

what is MS saying gravity is ??
bend spacetime ??
how exactly do you bend space ? ( distance, comparison )
how exactly do you bend time ? ( counting periodic events )

a reply to: KrzYma

Yes, too convenient.

The initial pics didn't strike me as it being as a singularity.

Are ATS so gullible?

I am ashamed for you.

a reply to: KrzYma

mathematically... if there is a room with three persons inside, and five persons go out of that room, two more people need to go inside the room, for the room to be empty.. go you get it ??

You said persons. What if 2 are female and each birth a child while in the room? That would make way more sense than 3 people in a room but 5 walk out.

You can't have something come out of zero. That makes no sense.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: KrzYma

The speed of light is not dependent upon the density of a field or gravity.

Correct, to an extent. Speed of light is dependent on the time flow rate. faster rate, lower speed. At the EH of the black hole speed of light is 0

originally posted by: KrzYma

so... if a black hole has a singularity inside of it, that is of infinite density, means of infinite mass,

No...the infinite density of a mathematical singularity does NOT mean infinite mass.

First off, let's define density with its equation: Density = Mass / Volume or D=m/V

Let's say you have a common marble, one with the mass of an average marble. If you begin to squeeze the volume of that marble smaller and smaller, the density of that marble begins to approach infinity. The mass is still the same -- the mass of a common marble -- but the density gets exponentially larger as the volume gets closer to zero.

No matter how close to zero we say that volume is, we can get infinitely closer to zero volume by just by dividing the volume again. So we can get that volume infinitely closer to zero, which means the marble is approaching infinite density.

The math breaks down when we try to calculate the volume AT EXACTLY zero, because the math would not let us divide by zero (remember, D = m/V). If we were to do the math to calculate the density of that marble if it were to be squeezed into a volume of zero, then the mathematical density of that marble is undefinable.

Since the tendency of the calculated density was that it approached infinity as the volume got infinitely closer to zero, it is said that a mathematical singularity is infinitely dense. However, the real answer (using the math) is that the density is undefinable if the volume were exactly zero.

But no matter what we divide by in that equation, the mass would still be the mass of that marble.


The same calculation could be done with something more massive than a marble -- say a galaxy. As the mass of a galaxy is squeezed into a volume that approaches zero, the density of that galaxy approaches infinity. Just like the marble.

The galaxy and the marble have different masses, but as we get infinitely close to zero without being at zero, the density of both the galaxy and the marble approach infinity.


So do black holes exist that have volumes approaching zero and with densities approaching infinity? Most likely.
However, do black holes exist that have a singularity with volume of zero and infinite density? Probably not, IMHO.

a reply to: Box of Rain

But... The volume would never be zero. You can constantly divide the value an infinite amount of times and it would not reach zero.


Here's a thought (that makes no sense).
- What if a black hole is a black hole within a black hole that's in another black hole?

originally posted by: StallionDuck
a reply to: Box of Rain

But... The volume would never be zero. You can constantly divide the value an infinite amount of times and it would not reach zero.


Here's a thought (that makes no sense).
- What if a black hole is a black hole within a black hole that's in another black hole?

Yes -- which is why it is thought by many that actual zero-volume singularities do not exist.

They exist as a concept, but for the most part when a physicist and/or mathematician starts seeing infinity being thrown around in calculations of real-world phenomena, it raises a red flag to them that the best math out there that's available to describe these phenomena might not be up to the task of actually describing them.

But, as you said (as similarly did I in my post), "You can constantly divide the value an infinite amount of times and it would not reach zero."

This is mathematically true, and dividing the volume an infinite amount of times would yield a mathematical result that tends toward infinite density...Until you actually reach zero volume, that is. At that point, the "tendency towards an infinite density" result of that equation collapses down to a result for density that is "undefinable."

Then again, that's just the math. Infinity is a much trickier concept when talking about it in the real world.

a reply to: KrzYma

It is a paradox.



Quantized? Really?

a reply to: Box of Rain




Ever think of it as the Universe engulfing itself back into the big bang (or what the big bang might have been) but from many drains? I always imagine a black hole keeping everything inside until the ability to feed becomes null and at some point, it turns inside out and expels all that it has within. Another 'big bang'.

Of course, this is just imagination on my part to try and wrap my head around what's really going on there. We can really only do just that since we can't see inside of it and we'll likely not be around to see one go through it's entire stage of birth, existence and death.