Beyond Bigelow & BAASS, After AATIP and on To the Stars...

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Bigelow Baass a character from the Harry Potter books? Or maybe I'm thinking of Charles Dickens.

a reply to: ConfusedBrit

Well he has not experienced levitation yet. The download thing appears to be contagious. I wonder if he can part the red sea?

😐

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: celltypespecific
a reply to: Arbitrageur
"Anybody should be able to confirm this for themselves if they have decent cognitive skills, it's not really that complicated, even though a retired physicist and Larry Cates apparently overlooked some things."

There in lies the issue....

Why is that an issue for you, because you don't know how to do your own analysis? It's not an issue for me and the analysis needed is not complicated so most people should be able to do it, should be a piece of cake for a neuroscientist.

originally posted by: celltypespecific
a reply to: Arbitrageur

But I believe Fravor saw something he thought was very interesting, that is not in doubt, but what is always in doubt about eyewitness accounts is the ability of a witness to visually estimate size, distance and speed of an unknown object.

And you do realize that another plane (The female pilot and her WSO) was above Fravor and the tic-tac.

The other plane described the exact same events that Fravor described. That's FOUR highly trained individuals ....
Yet you dismiss their accounts...?

That's highly problematic....

Have you got a link to that? I've never seen 4 different witnesses describe the same event the same way. There are a couple of problems with your statement.

The other aircraft designated "Fast eagle 2" was told by Fravor to stay at a higher altitude, that much is right, but 20,000 feet is almost 4 miles up if it was directly above and it probably had some horizontal distance too which made the distance a little over 4 miles. Do you think the pilots in that plane got a good view of what happened at 4 miles or more away, of such a small object? I heard the WSO LCDR Slaight say he saw a disturbance on the water that he thought might be a submarine and then the interviewer cut him off to ask him how it made him feel which made me mad, I wanted to hear his description, which is conspicuously absent from this summary of events, so if you have a link to support your claim, please post it, but if not then why are you claiming that the other pilot saw the same thing?

The Nimitz Encounters
The other person in Fast Eagle 1 with Fravor was his WSO who was not named, but he did not see the same thing as Fravor, did you know this? Apparently you didn't. The report even mentions their accounts of events don't agree:

CDR Fravor stated that the object was “holding like a Harrier.” (Referring to the AV-8l3 jet aircraft, which is capable of hovering and Vertical/Short Takeoff and Landing (V/STOL) via thrust vectoring.) According to CDR Fravor, the object’s shape was like an elongated egg or a ‘Tic Tac’ and had a discernable midline horizontal axis. However, the object was uniformly white across the entire body. It was approximately 46 feet in length. LT.__________ described it as “solid white, smooth, with no edges. It was uniformly colored with no nacelles, pylons, or wings.” When asked to describe the appearance, if it glowed or reflected sunlight he said, “neither, it looked like it had a white candy-coated shell, almost like a white board.” His report differs from CDR Fravor in that he reported the object traveling level at approximately 500-1000 feet at approximately 500 knots.

Emphasis mine to show that you are wrong in saying "That's FOUR highly trained individuals" saw the same thing, that's not what happened because even Fravor and his WSO don't agree.

So Fravor says the object was "holding like a Harrier", that is hovering, and the WSO in the seat right behind him says no that's not what I saw, it looked like it was moving at "approximately 500 knots". So if you don't accept the premise that witness observations of speed, distance and size are often unreliable, then you want to accept the different testimonies of the different witnesses? How could it be hovering as one witness said, and also moving at 500 knots at the same time, like the other witness said? These are the two who went down to get a closer look. I don't think the crew in FastEagle2 four miles away would get as good a view, but I am interested to hear more of what they had to say if you can link me to it. It's not in the linked report.

Really interesting read.

originally posted by: KilgoreTrout

That would also explain Dr Knapp's involvement with TTSA...

Apologies. I meant Dr Paul Rapp.

My fingers are clearly even more confused than the rest of me.

originally posted by: celltypespecific
a reply to: KilgoreTrout

Petty Officer Voorhis said of the data that the non uniformed personnel took from the Princeton's vessel "...you could literally plot the entire course of the object, you could extract the densities, the speeds, the way it moved, the way it displaced the air, it's radar cross-section, how much of the radar itself was reflected off it's surface. I mean you could pretty much recreate the entire event with the CEC data."

THIS IS A VERY CRITICAL POINT...

Well, of course it is, that's why I mentioned it.

originally posted by: Baablacksheep

The download thing appears to be contagious.

All joking aside, this is what was hinted at when they drew our attention to the caudate putamen. Improved cognitive fluidity between the often largely compartmentalised regions of intelligence that we humans have developed in the course of our evolution. The breaking through of those barriers, by whatever means, cognitively, certainly could be described as feeling like a "download". It's as good a metaphor as any, but much of course depends upon what you have been feeding your system and the language that it has at it's disposal to work through that process communicatively with itself. That he had a deep connection with a piece of land that he has a deep connection with should come as little surprise. He would have to be as intimately connected with the Red sea to be able to hold any away there.

The biggest tell in this whole story is that this whole TTSA package has been made in America, by Americans for Americans.

Yes, the original reports in December 2017 were reported internationally by established news organisations. Since then there has been little real interest. All non-American interest is now confined to websites of the trash tabloids. Of which as English language news sites also need to appeal to the biggest English speaking nation in the world for clicks.

But other than that. "Not a dickie bird ".

Whatever the trick being pulled here is aimed at America first and foremost. If not completely and absolutely.



While the tic-tac stories seem to provide a breath of fresh air for ufology what are they really up to?

Another interesting column from Keith Basterfield - this time about the Wilson/Davis transcript:

Source of Grant Cameron Document Speaks Out

I thought this section was particularly interesting (emphasis mine):

On the Cameron copy of the Davis Notes

I have successfully located the person who first obtained the document, and spoken to him; and he has admitted obtaining the document, and of giving it to Grant Cameron. This individual is, or was, active in the aerospace community. I asked my source if he had ever met Dr Edgar Mitchell? He replied that he had met him, briefly, on several occasions. However, that the Edgar Mitchell meetings may have nothing to do with the source of the documents. The person I contacted, wishes to remain anonymous for the moment, as he believes that the document is the real story, not how he got hold of it. He has no wish to be involved any further. This individual wishes it to be known that he had nothing to do with the dropping of the document onto the Internet. He was just as surprised as everybody else when it dropped, as he thought it was some time off. He also, has no idea who dropped it on the net, or who sent it to Richard Dolan. He states, it wasn't him. My source says, categorically, that Grant Cameron did not drop the document either. My source adds, that he would neither confirm nor deny, that additional documents were given to Grant Cameron.

He was surprised it leaked now because he thought it was "some time off."
Just whose schedule are we working under? And what is the timeframe for all this?

a reply to: Arbitrageur

You do realize that you initially stated that TWO PHD PHYSICIST could not get the calculations correct.....

So your comments regarding how simple these calculations are and anyone should be able to do it is inherently false.

I will address the rest of your comments. Just wanted to point out the logical inconsistence in your first point.

originally posted by: celltypespecific
a reply to: Arbitrageur

You do realize that you initially stated that TWO PHD PHYSICIST could not get the calculations correct.....

So your comments regarding how simple these calculations are and anyone should be able to do it is inherently false.

I will address the rest of your comments. Just wanted to point out the logical inconsistence in your first point.

No. He said the two PHD physicists DIDNT get the calculations correct, not that they COULDNT. They overlooked some things- that's what he was saying.

Why havent you done the calculations yourself?

originally posted by: mirageman
The biggest tell in this whole story is that this whole TTSA package has been made in America, by Americans for Americans.

So, this earth-shattering 'disclosure' is restricted to 4% of the world's population? Marvellous. I tried looking for any sign at all of 'Unidentified' or articles about TTSA on our localised international version of the History Channel, and... diddly squat.

Yes, the original reports in December 2017 were reported internationally by established news organisations. Since then there has been little real interest. All non-American interest is now confined to websites of the trash tabloids. Of which as English language news sites also need to appeal to the biggest English speaking nation in the world for clicks.

For clicks and American chicks.

I'm grateful to the BBC for reporting the AATIP news in late 2017, but since then there have probably been more column inches about Prince Harry's nasal hair than UFOs. Mainly I'm grateful for the story eventually leading me to ATS. 70% of ATS may be unfathomable junk (the politics forums are an embarrassing disgrace, little more than a bar-room brawl), but the UFO/Aliens section has been a veritable education in all things UFO-related since the dawn of man - many classic cases debunked, scams old and new laid bare, an identification parade of old has-beens and con-men (some of whom pollute TTSA), and a horrifying menagerie of podcast/radio misfits like Moulton-Howe, as well as garden-gate gossip merchants like the intolerable, mostly baseless drivel of Grant Cameron.

Regarding UK ufology, I find it a scandal than your (MM) masterful encyclopedia of British UFO sightings within each decade of the last century (which you posted in chapters during late-2012 to 2013) was more or less comparatively ignored by many ATSers, and certainly not given the credit (S&F) it deserved - eg 8 flags for one decade despite it being one of the best-written, best-researched and most invigorating threads I've read (with hindsight, looking back on informative threads when I joined last year). However, if you add the word "Lazar" to the thread title, expect at least 50 flags+ within a day.

Whatever the trick being pulled here is aimed at America first and foremost. If not completely and absolutely.

And they're bleedin' welcome to it.

a reply to: ConfusedBrit

It's like a psychological mass experiment involving manipulation of a collective conscious to measure its effect. The manipulation being a narrative that involves aliens being the bad guys and the believers having a fear of something they have created by their own collective minds, is an idea!

a reply to: mirageman

The biggest tell in this whole story is that this whole TTSA package has been made in America, by Americans for Americans

I understand your point but this statement is flawed.

There are alot of arguments but ultimately AMERICA drives the rest of the international community. So yes you have to capture the American audience first then everyone else generally falls in place. This is a fact... on multi-levels from: commerce, entertainment, military-industrially complex, education, etc...

American leads....the rest follow.

a reply to: coursecatalog

I strongly believe that document is TRASH and an attempt to capitalize on TTSA's media success...

a reply to: KansasGirl

Kansas...you are MAKING MY POINT....

IF....

two PHD physicists DIDNT get the calculations correct

why on earth would he think that "anyone could do these calculations...."
That's an illogical statement...

a reply to: celltypespecific

There are alot of arguments but ultimately AMERICA drives the rest of the international community. So yes you have to capture the American audience first then everyone else generally falls in place

I understand your point but this statement is flawed.

The NY Times, Washington Post and Politico all went with the big breaking story in Dec 2017. Most of the international news media followed suit.

18 months later after capturing the American audience no one else is following suit at all.

originally posted by: coursecatalog
Another interesting column from Keith Basterfield - this time about the Wilson/Davis transcript:

Source of Grant Cameron Document Speaks Out

Keith Basterfield is a ufological jewel.

The document is sucker bait as far as I'm concerned. Dolan sure is emotionally married to his "breakaway civilization" theory. No wonder this gets him orgasmic. He needs it to be true.

a reply to: The GUT

Dolan sure is emotionally married to his "breakaway civilization" theory.

That and attending woo cruises with Linda ....

a reply to: KilgoreTrout


Thanks KT, am still pondering Mr Day. You have interesting thoughts there.

originally posted by: celltypespecific
a reply to: KansasGirl

Kansas...you are MAKING MY POINT....

IF....

two PHD physicists DIDNT get the calculations correct

why on earth would he think that "anyone could do these calculations...."
That's an illogical statement...

No. you are the one being illogical. You seem to think that just because someone has a PHD, and they make a mistake, it must be that the calculations are too difficult. And because an almighty PHD made a mistake, that means that no way could anyone else be capable of correctly doing the calculation that they messed up.

You're supposedly a "neuroscientist," surely you can do a few math problems. Why are you so afraid to try? Are you not really a neuroscientist, is that it?

P.s.
I don't think you have a firm grasp on what "logical" and "illogical" means.