Trans Activism and Your Red Line

originally posted by: AProudLefty
a reply to: Vroomfondel

If you repeatedly refuse to call them by their pronouns or names, you lose the job.

And you don't see a problem with that??

a reply to: burdman30ott6

It isn't enough to simply ignore the dude in a dress who claims he's now a she... oh no,

originally posted by: sapien82
I believe the reclassification was because they had no factual evidence that it was actually a mental illness

Umm... no, it was due to pressure from the radical trans activists.

The fact that it is a mental illness is obvious on its face.

but yes I think if it helps people not to feel stigmatised as mentally ill then yes it was the right move, because its honest , we dont know !

Um.... yes, we do, just like we know that people who hear voices in their head are mentally ill.

Okay. I'll play along. I know a number of trans folks (MtoF, FtoM) and people who are in the process of transitioning and people who cross dress and so forth.

originally posted by: Boadicea
What is your Red Line and what is your solution? I'll start. I have two in particular:

1. Self-ID, which allows any man to "identify" as a woman anytime and anywhere, including violent sexual predators, and granting access to victims in private and vulnerable single-sex spaces. There is an established process for diagnosing and treating the truly gender dysphoric, virtually always homosexual (or, at least, non-heterosexual). But this process is being undermined by the autogynephiles -- heterosexual men who are indulging a sexual fetish -- and their gender "euphoria." And it is these autogynephiles who also retain the same (or greater) patterns and rates of violence and sexual crimes against women. It is unacceptable and unconscionable to grant any predator access to women's spaces -- transgender or otherwise -- but that's exactly what self-ID does.

Speaking as a woman who's been in bathrooms and other places with trans women, it's not an issue.

Any trans woman uses the bathroom same as the rest of us do.

A man who's decided to cross dress as a woman is NOT a woman and should be exposed as an impersonator and kicked out. How will we know who he is? It's someone who comes into a bathroom and doesn't do what we all do -- someone who hangs out in the bathroom and is generally a creep.

BTW, you didn't address trans men in men's bathrooms. Or trans men stalking and harming men.

Why is that? Are you saying that biological males are violent and aggressive and can't be trusted in bathrooms (if so, maybe you guys shouldn't be in bathrooms with each other)? Are you saying that men's rooms (which don't have as many stalls for privacy as women's bathrooms) are hotbeds of abuse and sexuality? And what happens when a genetic woman walks into a men's bathroom and goes into a stall?

Inquiring women (who would like to know why you men think that other men are lurking in the bushes waiting to assault us) would like to know.

2. The "gender affirming" medical treatment for children, from puberty blockers and other pharmaceuticals, to double-mastectomies, each with a plethora of permanent negative side effects and adverse outcomes.

First... mastectomies aren't being done on children. You can block the development of breasts with hormone treatments (and they're reversible.) Second, in children, "gender affirming" is understood to be a phase which may be temporary and may be caused by stress or some other factor other than true gender dysphoria. No real medical changes are made until after they hit puberty and even then the treatments are reversible.

MOST transgender people do NOT get surgery. It's expensive and doesn't always work.

Children expressing gender dysphoria should be given psychological/psychiatric treatment, with full attention to other mental/emotional issues, such as a history of abuse or abandonment, etc. No puberty blockers; puberty is crucial for the development of many bodily systems and functions, including mental and cognitive development, not just sexual/reproductive systems.

This is the current standard procedure.

So that's what I've got. What is your Red Line? Where and how is Trans Activism going too far and encroaching on the rights of others? And what would you suggest as the proper solution? Where is your middle ground?

I suggest better educating people on what "trans" means (it's NOT cross dressing) and how the process happens and how long it takes to transition and what the steps are.

You can't identify problems or suggest solutions if you don't have accurate information about it in the first place. As a striking example, there's a recent discussion of a paper on the rate of suicide and attempted suicide in trans people. If you read the paper, though (I did) you will find out that the question asked is "have you ever attempted suicide." It doesn't say "before transition or after transition." It just asks "ever." As with gay youths, trans people are very frequently the target of abuse, beatings, and threats and bullying BEFORE transitioning ... all factors that contribute to depression and high rates of suicide. It should have been a flag that the date of these attempts wasn't asked.

a reply to: Byrd

You can't identify problems or suggest solutions if you don't have accurate information about it in the first place. As a striking example, there's a recent discussion of a paper on the rate of suicide and attempted suicide in trans people. If you read the paper, though (I did) you will find out that the question asked is "have you ever attempted suicide." It doesn't say "before transition or after transition." It just asks "ever." As with gay youths, trans people are very frequently the target of abuse, beatings, and threats and bullying BEFORE transitioning ... all factors that contribute to depression and high rates of suicide. It should have been a flag that the date of these attempts wasn't asked.

You're correct in that there are a lack of thorough academic studies regarding trans suicide pre-op vs. post-op.

However, transgender studies have become commonplace in so many universities these days that it makes you wonder why there aren't comprehensive studies on this particular subject. In my opinion, this is intentional. They're well aware that the results wouldn't prove to be beneficial for their community.

Dbl post

originally posted by: AgarthaSeed
a reply to: Byrd

You can't identify problems or suggest solutions if you don't have accurate information about it in the first place. As a striking example, there's a recent discussion of a paper on the rate of suicide and attempted suicide in trans people. If you read the paper, though (I did) you will find out that the question asked is "have you ever attempted suicide." It doesn't say "before transition or after transition." It just asks "ever." As with gay youths, trans people are very frequently the target of abuse, beatings, and threats and bullying BEFORE transitioning ... all factors that contribute to depression and high rates of suicide. It should have been a flag that the date of these attempts wasn't asked.

You're correct in that there are a lack of thorough academic studies regarding trans suicide pre-op vs. post-op.

However, transgender studies have become commonplace in so many universities these days that it makes you wonder why there aren't comprehensive studies on this particular subject. In my opinion, this is intentional. They're well aware that the results wouldn't prove to be beneficial for their community.

It's fairly rare (a figure that matches my own observation is that they're about 1-2% of the LGBT community (convenient Wikipedia source)... which is a much smaller number than the number of heterosexual people. In addition, they are usually shy and reluctant to step up into a spotlight. So a researcher has to first find a significant number of them and then get permission to do studies.

My experience with MtoF and FtoM transgendered people was that they do a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of presence. There's a number of them that I did NOT know were trans because they successfully blend in (and because I didn't want to bed any of them so I have no idea what happens in intimate settings.) Some of them are more obviously trans or in the process of transitioning but most of them pass for the gender they've selected.

Doing human-based research gets into a whole tangle of worms. Most of the research is now done through clinics with medical followups. However, given that this treatment only became an option during my lifetime (and was expensive and difficult to get until fairly recently), there's not a lot of information out there.

A quick search on Google Scholar shows some 5,000 papers since 2015 (but I haven't looked at them to see if these are real papers or someone tossing something up on Academia.edu and calling it a research paper.)

And yes, it needs more research. I heartily agree.

originally posted by: old_god
a reply to: Boadicea

I am quite old now and nearing the end of my time on earth so I have a pretty grumpy view of the world, call me old fashioned if you will.

No worries! I have more years behind me than in front of me as well... We've seen and done much, eh? And that experience is valuable.

The problem is, as you stated, that this whole debacle is being codified into modern day lives and being normalised and I personally have a big problem with that but, not so much against the transgender folks but at the way the delusion is being pushed into the reality and the fabric of society...

Yes, it's the codification and regulation and legislation, which grants privileges and special entitlements to some (transgender persons) while trampling the actual rights of the rest of us. People can do and live as they will for themselves, and by themselves, and/or with other consenting adults. Forcing their will on the rest of us via color of law and the barrel of a gun is the problem.

My problem is how they are encroaching on women's rights (and some men's, the proportion seems to be more men pretending to be women)...these rights belong to a particular gender, that being women, biological born women (or men if that's the case) and this is a problem as we have seen women are not too happy about this situation especially when a man becomes a so-called-woman and dominates a field of sports.

Thank you! Yes!!! It does seem to be concentrated in the male-to-female group, and rather than demanding their own identity and spaces, they are trying to assume/appropriate women's identity and spaces. We don't hear a constant refrain of "Trans men are men." Nope. Just "trans women are women." Which, in practice and in effect, completely erases women.

If these people want to do body modification that's their choice...

Just to clarify: For adults who want to make that choice for themselves. It is not for anyone to make that choice for anyone else, especially children.

...but don't include me in your delusion...

Exactly. Trans issues are not an issue for anyone unless and until we are FORCED to participate and "cooperate."

BUT we live in a world that is supposedly progressive so on the first hand I believe the immediate solution is to correctly identify these people as a "transgender" so neither male or female but their own label called transgender. This would afford them many more rights in society and would probably allow them to be more accepted as an-other group of people rather than trying to bulldoze their way into the minds of young and old with the stupid notion that by doing some physical and chemical changes they are now the opposite sex (what a load of bol.locks).

I really do not understand why this hasn't been their goal all along. It does, in fact, smack of that transphobia that so many Trans Activists are so quick to accuse the rest of us. People have no problem identifying trans people as trans... why do they have such a problem with it?

The second issue here is to look at society and try to understand why there is an increased rate of young people supposedly having issue with their gender identification...Is it more likely that what they see and hear has influenced them and created the doubt (very likely) and/or are their other mitigating circumstances and societal and psychological factors at place (quite likely).

It seems that too many folks like their condition and do not want to find the cause much less the cure -- and don't want anyone else to either. I expect that there are several factors causing this surge in identifying as trans, which can and do compound each other. Physical/biological, mental, emotional and even spiritual. I'm very concerned at "conversion therapy" bans, which would make it impossible to research, identify and treat any possible causes.

This nonsense has gone so far as to produce laws for example here in the UK where people can get arrested for pointing out the obvious and/or not conforming to someone elses BS.

It is absolutely outrageous. Especially given the abuse and bullying and violent threats from Trans Activists against women, usually demonized and dismissed as evil "TERFs". While very disturbed and violent men identifying as transgender are protected by the system for their very real sexual and violent offenses against the law, women are persecuted for words... truthful words.

It is absolutely shameful.

originally posted by: drussell41
Have you seen this? Tavistock rears its head again.

www.thetimes.co.uk...

Thank you -- I have now!

I just saw this one this morning:

Vulnerable youngsters rushed into treatment. Staff too nervous to speak out: After resigning from controversial Tavistock gender clinic trust, a former governor says he fears we're hurrying children down a transgender path they may bitterly regret

A leaked internal report had branded the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) at The Tavistock Centre, England’s only NHS youth gender clinic, ‘not fit for purpose’.... [snip]... The service was accused of being too quick to give children and young people medical treatment (hormone-blocking drugs).

Treatment that has unknown far‑reaching consequences and that, without sufficient exploration as to the child’s feelings and motives, can have devastating life‑long effects on their identity and development.

Although, following this first critical report, the Trust had subsequently commissioned its own review of the situation, I began to worry that this second report was being used to close down rather than open up the debate about the serious and sensitive clinical issues.

This has become the pattern... the standard operating procedure.

a reply to: Byrd

Okay. I'll play along. I know a number of trans folks (MtoF, FtoM) and people who are in the process of transitioning and people who cross dress and so forth.

Okay... thank you.

Speaking as a woman who's been in bathrooms and other places with trans women, it's not an issue.

Please. You speak for yourself and only yourself. Obviously. As there are many many women saying otherwise, and stating very clear and valid issues, including safety.

Any trans woman uses the bathroom same as the rest of us do.

Oh dear lordy. That's an outright lie and you know it. Trans "women" take care of their menstrual-related hygiene in the bathroom? Or how about breast-feeding related hygiene?

No. Trans "women" have very different anatomy and biology and therefore very different physical realities and needs. Trans "women" do not use the bathroom the same as the rest of us.

A man who's decided to cross dress as a woman is NOT a woman and should be exposed as an impersonator and kicked out.

No. There should be no self-ID that would allow the creeper in the ladies room to begin with!!!

How will we know who he is? It's someone who comes into a bathroom and doesn't do what we all do -- someone who hangs out in the bathroom and is generally a creep.

So just let them all in and we'll figure it out after the fact... maybe after he violently and brutally shoves a woman (or girl!) back in the stall to rape her.

And, of course, there's also the autogynephile... the gender EUphoric... the guy who just gets his rocks off dressed as a women... and treated like a woman... who wants us all to roleplay in his sexual fantasy. And I refuse to roleplay in any man's sexual fantasy.

BTW, you didn't address trans men in men's bathrooms.

Okay, trans "men" in men's bathrooms... I am scared for them. And it makes absolutely no sense that if the men's rooms are too dangerous for men who identify as women that they would be any safer for women who identify as men. So I do worry about trans "men." Being biological women, they have every right (and damn good reason!) to continue using women's bathrooms.

Or trans men stalking and harming men.

Why is that? Are you saying that biological males are violent and aggressive and can't be trusted in bathrooms...

First you point out that I didn't address the matter at all, then put words in my mouth. Not cool.

Historically and statistically, natal men overwhelmingly commit the vast majority of violent and sexual crime. Those same rates and patterns of offenses is at least as high in the trans "woman" population. There is research that shows that close to 90% of all sex offenders are also cross-dressers/transgender. So while not all men are sexual offenders, and not all trans "women" are sex offenders, the majority of sex offenders are transgender under the trans umbrella and according to self-ID.

So the same reasons and justifications for establishing women's spaces still stand, and must be preserved and protected for the same reasons.

...(if so, maybe you guys shouldn't be in bathrooms with each other)?

Oh dear... did you just MISGENDER ME??? Why yes... yes, you did. I am OBVIOUSLY a MA'AM!!!

Are you saying that men's rooms (which don't have as many stalls for privacy as women's bathrooms) are hotbeds of abuse and sexuality?

Um... really? It's the Trans Activists that say men's rooms are so damn dangerous -- especially for trans "women"!!! Direct that snotty condescension to them!

And what happens when a genetic woman walks into a men's bathroom and goes into a stall?

Because every single solitary instance is going to be exactly the same? Now you're just talking stupid nonsense.

Inquiring women (who would like to know why you men think that other men are lurking in the bushes waiting to assault us) would like to know.

Again with the MISGENDERING!!! That's literal violence!!! You're trying to kill me!!! I am OBVIOUSLY a MA'AM.

a reply to: Byrd

I honestly don't know if this is just ignorance on your part or outright gaslighting:

I suggest better educating people on what "trans" means (it's NOT cross dressing) and how the process happens and how long it takes to transition and what the steps are.

Do you know what Self-ID is? Or do you need better educating?

ALL of the above is moot as long as Self-ID allows any man to identify as "trans" -- including cross-dressers -- and as long as Self-ID completely removes all psychological and medical diagnosis processes.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Byrd

I honestly don't know if this is just ignorance on your part or outright gaslighting:

I suggest better educating people on what "trans" means (it's NOT cross dressing) and how the process happens and how long it takes to transition and what the steps are.

Do you know what Self-ID is? Or do you need better educating?

ALL of the above is moot as long as Self-ID allows any man to identify as "trans" -- including cross-dressers -- and as long as Self-ID completely removes all psychological and medical diagnosis processes.

Well, yes I do know what it is.

People are allowed to change their names and identities with a simple process (and often for business reasons.) They can change it as often as they like. And by your same metric, this would allow any woman to identify as "trans"-- including cross dressers or even maintain two identities... as many people do nowadays (actors, for instance, who may take various roles, and entertainers and so forth.)

The Netherlands was one of the first counties to adopt a "Self ID" policy back in 2013 and there hasn't been a wave of rapes, etc, that you seem to fear.

Great Britain is moving towards a Self ID (currently they still ask for proof of a change process for at least two years)

Sweden also has a form of self ID (site has a lot of popups... this was just a convenient article that wasn't lumbered in legalese)

Australia (I know someone from Australia who cross-dresses sometimes as a female persona) is a hodge-podge of laws but for passport and state purposes, you only need to have a letter from a physician (any physician) to allow you to change your gender on national documents.

Even Germany, where as recently as 2008 a law was in effect that babies had to be given a gender specific name is moving toward a simpler Self ID system

...and so on for a lot of other examples.

There hasn't been a breakdown of social rules in any of these countries, and no huge uptick in abuses against women in these countries.

Now...serious question... do you think that the American attitude towards what's male and what's female is the social condition that makes it very dangerous to have trans men in a women's space here in America? Those other societies where changing gender is a relatively easy thing are actually places where women have more freedom (and were in political leadership roles much earlier) than American women; places where women were able to vote long before American women could and places that have had women as leaders of their countries.

Do you think that the real problem is American culture and that our culture leads to men being more violent and predatory toward women than men in other cultures?

Long response incoming (warning: wall of text. I will try to be concise)

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Byrd

Okay. I'll play along. I know a number of trans folks (MtoF, FtoM) and people who are in the process of transitioning and people who cross dress and so forth.

Okay... thank you.

Speaking as a woman who's been in bathrooms and other places with trans women, it's not an issue.

Please. You speak for yourself and only yourself. Obviously. As there are many many women saying otherwise, and stating very clear and valid issues, including safety.

I do speak only for myself (and for others who have been in the bathroom and other spaces with trans women and trans men.) Have the women who say otherwise ever been (knowingly) in a space with trans people? I suspect that they haven't... but I don't know.

Any trans woman uses the bathroom same as the rest of us do.

Oh dear lordy. That's an outright lie and you know it. Trans "women" take care of their menstrual-related hygiene in the bathroom? Or how about breast-feeding related hygiene?

No. Trans "women" have very different anatomy and biology and therefore very different physical realities and needs. Trans "women" do not use the bathroom the same as the rest of us.

This argument falls short since a lot of us don't take care of menstrual-related hygiene in bathrooms (menopausal, other gynecological problems such as amenhorrea) or breast-feed in bathrooms (childless women and many other women don't breast-feed in bathrooms.) The main function of public restrooms is a place to urinate and defecate in privacy.

There should be no self-ID that would allow the creeper in the ladies room to begin with!!!

Self ID isn't going to change this (as I see it)... a genetic male could costume appropriately and wander into a women's bathroom and pass right now (and some have.) There's no staff positioned at any restroom I've been in who sit and wait and monitor the area - at least, none in America. In Egypt, yes (part of their function was to sell you toilet paper) but not in America or most other countries I've visited.

So as it stands now, there's actually nothing that prevents a man from going into a woman's restroom in most places in the world.

So just let them all in and we'll figure it out after the fact... maybe after he violently and brutally shoves a woman (or girl!) back in the stall to rape her.

If someone's going to do that, a sign on the door saying "women only" isn't going to stop them... whether or not there's a Self ID/Open ID policy for gender. This kind of creep doesn't follow rules ... and yes, I've met the kind who violates women's spaces in the gaming community; the kind of man who thinks "women only" is an invitation for them to come police our activities.

And, of course, there's also the autogynephile... the gender EUphoric... the guy who just gets his rocks off dressed as a women... and treated like a woman... who wants us all to roleplay in his sexual fantasy.

And they're out there right now and doing it right now. Self ID isn't going to change this.

Okay, trans "men" in men's bathrooms... I am scared for them. And it makes absolutely no sense that if the men's rooms are too dangerous for men who identify as women that they would be any safer for women who identify as men. So I do worry about trans "men." Being biological women, they have every right (and damn good reason!) to continue using women's bathrooms.

.... I can see a big issue here: many of the trans men I know look and sound just like men and unless you ask them to strip (which I'm not going to do!) you can't tell the difference. So how would you know if that male figure in the women's restroom is a genetic male pretending to be a trans male or a true trans male?

Or if the woman who just barged into the men's room is actually a trans woman or a genetic woman who got tired standing in the line for the women's bathroom?

Historically and statistically, natal men overwhelmingly commit the vast majority of violent and sexual crime.

I certainly agree.

Those same rates and patterns of offenses is at least as high in the trans "woman" population. There is research that shows that close to 90% of all sex offenders are also cross-dressers/transgender. So while not all men are sexual offenders, and not all trans "women" are sex offenders, the majority of sex offenders are transgender under the trans umbrella and according to self-ID.

I haven't read ATS in awhile... do you have a link to some of this research? I tend to doubt this because for many years I was responsible for helping the police department put up the list of registered sex offenders in my town, and it didn't appear that any of the ones on our list (we're a Dallas suburb, so a large population) were trans or trans-identifying. I realize it's a limited sample, but this limited sample that I watched for around a decade doesn't match your suggested pattern.

...(if so, maybe you guys shouldn't be in bathrooms with each other)?

Oh dear... did you just MISGENDER ME??? Why yes... yes, you did. I am OBVIOUSLY a MA'AM!!!

It wasn't intentional, and I do apologize. On the Internet it can be difficult to tell and many men (as you may remember from earlier ATS) often use women in their avatars and sometimes use feminine handles... for whatever reason (and it's VERY common in the gaming community.)

I tend to use "you guys" as a generic "y'all" ... however, whatever my thought process was at the time, using that address was clearly wrong. I hope you will accept my apology.

Are you saying that men's rooms (which don't have as many stalls for privacy as women's bathrooms) are hotbeds of abuse and sexuality?

Um... really? It's the Trans Activists that say men's rooms are so damn dangerous -- especially for trans "women"!!! Direct that snotty condescension to them!

In talking with trans people, the issue of danger in men's bathrooms isn't that of sexual abuse directly. It's the physical danger of rage against the role.

Inquiring women (who would like to know why you men think that other men are lurking in the bushes waiting to assault us) would like to know.

Again with the MISGENDERING!!! That's literal violence!!! You're trying to kill me!!! I am OBVIOUSLY a MA'AM.

Again, my apologies.

Just to add something topical and current to this thread...

BBC source

Transgender athletes should not compete in female competitions in order to "protect women's sport", says former British swimmer Sharron Davies.

Her comments come after 18-time tennis Grand Slam singles champion Martina Navratilova said it was "cheating" to allow transgender women to compete in women's sport because they had unfair physical advantages. One campaign group said Navratilova's comments were "transphobic".

Speaking to BBC Sport, Davies, 56, said she had spoken to many other female athletes who "feel the same way". "It is not a transphobic thing - I really want to say we have no issue with people who are transgender," she said.

a reply to: Byrd

The Netherlands was one of the first counties to adopt a "Self ID" policy back in 2013 and there hasn't been a wave of rapes, etc, that you seem to fear.

Really? You sure about that? This is from last month: Dutch News: Crime drops but sexual violence reports up: police figures

There's an 88% chance each one of those assaults were committed by men who identify as transgender.

However, according to what I did find -- Netherlands - Rape rate -- rapes had decreased by 14+% over 2012 to 2013, when self-ID laws were passed. From 2013 to 2014, reported rapes were still down, but only by less than 3%... quite a big difference over the previous years rate of decrease. But it gets worse, with reported rapes increasing over the next year by almost 1%. So there was definitely an increase in sexual assaults after the passage of self-ID.

I also found this, which tells me Dutch women aren't as happy about their bathroom facilities as you are:
Dutch women protest lack of female-friendly public toilets

And this gives me no confidence that women's safety is a priority: Belgium, Greece and the Netherlands criticised for inadequate rape laws

Nor does this: A low crime rate? Dutch police are unaware of most crimes, says leaked report

But the Netherlands must be just a fluke, right? It cannot possibly show a pattern or trend, right? I know! Britain will be different -- I just know it!!!

Great Britain is moving towards a Self ID (currently they still ask for proof of a change process for at least two years)...

Which is being fought tooth and nail and for good reason. Things like this: Unisex changing rooms put women at danger of sexual assault, data reveals... And the known predator-identifying-as-trans who was placed in a woman's prison with oh-so-predictable results: Transgender prison inmate who sexually assaulted women jailed for life ... And the trans predator that assaulted a five-year-old girl in a public bathroom -- Warning after transgender sex offender placed in women’s hostel -- but authorities still thought it okay to send him to a woman's hostel...

There's a ton of these. In fact, there's an entire website devoted to the crimes committed by transgender persons, with subsections specifically for sex crimes: TransCrimeUK -- Sexual Offenses

Sweden also has a form of self ID...

And increasing reports of sexual assault, as reported in January of 2018: Reported rapes in Sweden up by 10 percent

There hasn't been a breakdown of social rules in any of these countries, and no huge uptick in abuses against women in these countries.

Wrong, as I have already shown.

Now...serious question... do you think that the American attitude towards what's male and what's female is the social condition that makes it very dangerous to have trans men in a women's space here in America?

Of course not. I KNOW that it is the disproportionately high patterns and rates of men committing actual violent and sexual assaults against women!!! And I KNOW that men who identify as transgender retain at least that same rate and pattern of violence and sexual offenses. And I KNOW that the overwhelming majority of sexual offenders are also transgender.

I also know that Sweden, Belgium and Australia have higher sexual assault rates than the USA.

Those other societies where changing gender is a relatively easy thing are actually places where women have more freedom (and were in political leadership roles much earlier) than American women; places where women were able to vote long before American women could and places that have had women as leaders of their countries. Do you think that the real problem is American culture and that our culture leads to men being more violent and predatory toward women than men in other cultures?

No, see above.

The real problem is men trying to first un-define women and then re-define women in their image and appropriating and assuming our rights and identities. We're still here. Men who identify as women are not women. They are men who identify as women. Let them own and promote their identity. Not steal someone else's identity.

a reply to: Byrd

I do speak only for myself (and for others who have been in the bathroom and other spaces with trans women and trans men.) Have the women who say otherwise ever been (knowingly) in a space with trans people? I suspect that they haven't... but I don't know.

Stop. It doesn't matter. The exact same reasons that women were granted single-sex spaces then still stand today. Nothing has changed. Let them demand a third option.

This argument falls short since a lot of us don't take care of menstrual-related hygiene in bathrooms (menopausal, other gynecological problems such as amenhorrea) or breast-feed in bathrooms (childless women and many other women don't breast-feed in bathrooms.)

It's not an argument, and it doesn't fall short. It is what it is. You stated that men identifying as trans do the same things everyone else does... obviously not. And it doesn't matter how many women do it or how often, these are necessary biological realities for women, and appropriately performed in the ladies room. There are already complaints from trans "women" that they want sanitary dispensers and disposals REMOVED from the women's rooms because it's "gross" and "not all women are bleeders." Women are women and reality is reality. Obviously, trans "women" are not women and do not have the same biological realities and do not belong in the ladies room.

The main function of public restrooms is a place to urinate and defecate in privacy.

It is **a** main function; the general purpose is for hygienic purposes of all sorts, including the ones mentioned, which are in fact particular to women. Would you ban women from using the facilities for those purposes?

Self ID isn't going to change this (as I see it)...

So as it stands now, there's actually nothing that prevents a man from going into a woman's restroom in most places in the world.

I disagree. To begin with, the law is a deterrent. Of course it's not foolproof, but simply the sight of them entering the wrong bathroom raises alarms and red flags and probably holy hell and maybe an ass whooping -- if not arrest. There is absolutely nothing to be said to justify or excuse going into the ladies room, so only the worst would even try; and even then, under the most specific circumstances, to avoid detection. Thus reducing both opportunity and therefore the incidents. It also gives any woman already in there who sees him the opportunity to defend herself, notify other women in the stalls, or get the hell out if possible... instead of waiting to see if he's one of the bad guys, and possibly making herself more (most?) vulnerable by going about her business with a false sense of security.

Nevertheless, despite the fact that "as it stands now, there's actually nothing that prevents a man from going into a woman's restroom," men don't. They respect the law, they respect women's private spaces, and they don't go in there. Hence, how we know who the bad guys are when they do go in. So there is no reason to fix what ain't broken. The laws and protections and safeguards are working as intended.

I can see a big issue here: many of the trans men I know look and sound just like men and unless you ask them to strip (which I'm not going to do!) you can't tell the difference. So how would you know if that male figure in the women's restroom is a genetic male pretending to be a trans male or a true trans male? Or if the woman who just barged into the men's room is actually a trans woman or a genetic woman who got tired standing in the line for the women's bathroom?

Yes, it is quite the pickle transgenders have created. So, again, let them demand a third option for their identity and status -- not take someone else's.

I haven't read ATS in awhile... do you have a link to some of this research?

Okay -- give me some time though. I wanted to look some of this up again and bookmark it anyway. I have posted a couple links earlier in this thread though if you want to go back through it before I get to it. I will try to hunt more up later. I'll also hunt up a very recent analysis of the UK's prison population analysis. Unfortunately, definitive records are not kept, so it's the result of cross-referencing various records.

I tend to doubt this because for many years I was responsible for helping the police department put up the list of registered sex offenders in my town, and it didn't appear that any of the ones on our list (we're a Dallas suburb, so a large population) were trans or trans-identifying. I realize it's a limited sample, but this limited sample that I watched for around a decade doesn't match your suggested pattern.

Was it possibly before being transgender was cool and they were still just secret cross-dressers? One study I'm thinking of was performed in Sweden back in the 90s, exclusively of incarcerated men already convicted for crimes, who claimed cross-dressing as a paraphilia. I don't recall if the prisoners were exclusively sex offenders or not, but I do recall that the crimes were not necessarily committed while dressed/presenting as a woman. Rather, I believe it was information the prisoners revealed for the purposes of the study.

No worries about the misgendering... just had to play with you a bit there!

a reply to: paraphi

Speaking to BBC Sport, Davies, 56, said she had spoken to many other female athletes who "feel the same way". "It is not a transphobic thing - I really want to say we have no issue with people who are transgender," she said.

It's so sad that she has to stress that she's not "transphobic." Of course she's not. It's the Trans Activists that are transphobic and refuse to accept who themselves.

I understand that in order to usurp the original intent of single-sex spaces and protections (like competitive sports), that Trans Activists are trying to just re-define themselves as "women," but this makes absolutely no sense, and isn't working for them.

This is encouraging: ‘Europe� �s first jail in a jail’ for trans women

The link above is just a temporary share token to get past a paywall, but I'll excerpt the highlights:

Britain is to create its first transgender “jail within a jail”..... Downview is a women’s jail, and one source reported “significant concern” among its 320 female prisoners at the arrival of male-bodied trans inmates.

Almost half of trans prisoners are sex offenders, compared with 19% in the prison population as a whole. Prison governors and doctors say some sex criminals transition to get access to women.

However, the new trans wing is understood to be in a separate building within the prison perimeter, with an inner fence dividing it from the rest of the jail...... the success of the new unit would depend on how effectively the prison protected its biologically female inmates.

“They’re going to have to have some kinds of safeguards to make sure that a Karen White event doesn’t happen again,” she said. “That is the number one priority.”

White, born Stephen Wood, a convicted child sex abuser on remand for rape, was sent to a women’s prison after self-identifying as female, even though she still had her male genitalia. Within weeks, she had sexually assaulted two women inmates. The case triggered a revision of prison guidelines... The creation of a “third space” for trans inmates reflects the fact that they too can be at risk.

The unit has 15 single cells and one two-bedded cell, Reynolds said. This is too small to hold the 139 prisoners recorded as trans, but almost enough for the estimated 20 trans prisoners who are housed in the women’s estate — raising the prospect that all women’s jails except Downview could be emptied of trans inmates.

A few American big-city jails have transgender wings, but it is believed that Downview’s could be the first in Europe....

I think a third space is the appropriate response and solution, preserving safeguards for women, but addressing the transgender population's wants and needs as well.

a reply to: paraphi

Fair Play For Women, a British women's advocacy group, put this flyer out today for free distribution to and by anyone interested:

Fair Play For Women: Sport Info

THE RULES
In 2015 the IOC changed their guidelines: males may compete with females if their testosterone level is reduced to 10nmol/L for 12 months.

Testosterone levels unfair: 10nmol/L is much higher than the average level in females. Guidelines for female athletes with disorders of sexual development (intersex) were thoughtlessly copied for male transgender athletes. Very different considerations apply.

Unscientific: IOC Rule makers ignored advantages of male puberty on performance. Independent experts agree that even lowering testosterone to zero can’t reverse advantages due to male biomechanics and male muscle memory.

Fairness and safety forgotten: IOC guidelines have now been widely adopted by UK sporting bodies with no equality impact assessments for women and girls.

UK equality law is clear: It is lawful to restrict male participation (including males identifying as women) to uphold fair and safe competition in sport. This law is being ignored.

Hormone monitoring is impractical at amateur levels putting pressure on sports authorities to abandon it for self-ID.

THE CONSEQUENCES
Loss of fair and meaningful competition: women and girls are losing rankings, role models, scholarship opportunities and ultimately ambition.

No limits: Men and boys self identify into female sports without monitoring. The Canadian Winter Games accepts anyone who says they are female. 17 US states now allow boys to compete as girls in high school sporting competitions.

Safety ignored: Women and girls are getting injured when competing against males in contact sports. Women and girls are expected to share communal changing areas and sleeping accommodation with males.

Legitimate concerns branded as ‘transphobic’: Martina Navratilova an LGBT pioneer was ejected from Athlete Ally. Sponsorships are threatened, gagging orders issued, competitions protested, scientific debate stifled.

It's a great resource for those spreading information about the inherent unfairness and unsportsmanship of men/boys competing against women/girls.

I'm a bit pressed for time, but let me address a small group of your comments here and I'll address others gradually over the next few days.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Byrd

The Netherlands was one of the first counties to adopt a "Self ID" policy back in 2013 and there hasn't been a wave of rapes, etc, that you seem to fear.

Really? You sure about that? This is from last month: Dutch News: Crime drops but sexual violence reports up: police figures

I read the article. It includes this statement:

In a press release, the force suggested this could be related to the increased social attention and openness around sexual violence, making people more likely to alert the police to an incident. There were particular increases in reports of rape, grooming and sexting

You added...

There's an 88% chance each one of those assaults were committed by men who identify as transgender.

What's the source of this statistic? I haven't come across it before.

However, according to what I did find -- Netherlands - Rape rate -- rapes had decreased by 14+% over 2012 to 2013, when self-ID laws were passed. From 2013 to 2014, reported rapes were still down, but only by less than 3%... quite a big difference over the previous years rate of decrease. But it gets worse, with reported rapes increasing over the next year by almost 1%. So there was definitely an increase in sexual assaults after the passage of self-ID.

A one percent increase in reported sexual assaults, yes. Were there other periods where the figures drop over a period of years but increase slightly for a year or two before dropping again?

I also found this, which tells me Dutch women aren't as happy about their bathroom facilities as you are:
Dutch women protest lack of female-friendly public toilets

The article indicates there are too many urinals and not enough private stalls -- as the organizer of the protest says:

She said the protesters want to prove "that it isn't possible for women to urinate in a decent, hygienic and dignified manner in a public urinal designed for men."

So they aren't really worried about assault or other violence, but instead seem to be annoyed that it isn't easy for women to conveniently use the many urinals around and that there needs to be more stalls placed.

And this gives me no confidence that women's safety is a priority: Belgium, Greece and the Netherlands criticised for inadequate rape laws

I agree that across the world, prosecution of rapes is not a priority for many countries, including the US (here in Texas, my state representative put through a bill to fund processing the many (many!) thousands of rape kits that were turned in and then just... ignored. Laws across the world have put women in the position of being property or even given us a status no better than that of slaves (and slaves had it better than Roman women!) in many civilizations and cultures.

However, the increasing numbers of people presenting as trans hasn't caused any of these laws to become worse as far as I can tell. And I think that we can show that even in places where few trans people live, these kinds of crimes are being increasingly reported.

I don't see that the presence of trans people is causing laws to be hauled back into the dark ages.

I'll address other comments tomorrow if I have the time; as I've said there's a lot going on for me right now which means I don't regularly read ATS.