A Sculpture Celebrating Saudi Arabia Has Been Erected on Ground Zero. “There is no god but Allah,

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

This is so very insulting. I would be absolutely outraged.

And that's the Illuminati for ya!

Enjoy swallowing more sh*t brothers and sisters across the pond....this is just the beginning.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Do you really think there aren’t christian soldiers who enjoy killing muslims? There are plenty of videos on youtube of christians talking mad # about muslims.

Your point? How many have strapped explosives to their children and blown up a disco? How many have hijacked an airplane with a box cutter and slammed it into a tower? How many have been in a perpetual state of warfare, either civil or against neighboring infidels since the fall of the Roman Empire? How many gather by the tens of thousands to vocally pray for their god to smite their enemies using them as his sword and shield? How many Christian leaders have called the Islamic world the Great Satan? How many American cities are ruled by Christian preachers who fling homosexuals from rooftops?

I'll wait for you to gather evidence of this happening.

ETA: I have never seen an American President call on the Lord's fire to fill him so he may turn it against the enemies of the Lord. But I've seen other leaders say that... wanna guess what their theology was?

Abortion clinic murders, parents who kill their children to send them to heaven, the thousands of christian cults.

If the only difference you see between the atrocities committed by christians and muslims is the way they decide to kill, then you are not seeing the big picture.

Islam and christianity are equally absurd because they both teach people that their individual fantasies are reality.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

What do they have to do to distance themselves?

The Muslims that I know do that by their actions. They're no more likely to strap on a bomb-vest than I am, nor are they going to send kids into harms way, or act in any way contrary to civilized society.

Of course, that's hardly but a very small fraction of a fraction of the numbers of Muslims globally. My anecdotal evidence is hardly conclusive for anyone but myself...I know that. But I also have to think that the majority, by many orders of magnitude, have no interest in emulating the zealots. If they were, we'd have a whole lot more atrocities than we do now.

Not saying it's not a problem, because it is. But this is much like, to my mind anyway, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

a reply to: Woodcarver

The difference I see is that Islam's death cult is institutionalized within their nations' governments and within their leaders. Christianity not so much. We have batcrap crazy Christians who do batcrap crazy things... and other Christians enforce laws that either imprison them or remove them from the list of the living... The Islamic world largely lacks that degree of checks and balances and shows zero indication of adopting it anytime soon.

a reply to: seagull

I don't see any baby in that tub. That would be the primary difference in our mental models on this topic.

ETA: I'm not saying you're wrong here. You're following what your conscience tells you to follow. I'm saying that I cannot take that step where this issue is concerned. On an individual level, trust and belief that there is good in a person is not a bad thing... if you're wrong, it's on you and you alone. On a national level, however, you can only go based off of what has been documented and empirically measured. By that metric, this is not an enemy we can afford to show our backs to. I go back to the concept of Taqiya, a concept which doesn't exist in Christianity and (to my knowledge) Judaism, which permits any manner of lies be told so long as they are told to advance the Muslim religion and/or serve the needs of jihad. I struggle with the idea of handing my respect and belief to a group which lives by a code that permits them to lie about their intents, beliefs, and purposes so long as the lies serve their religion's intentions (which history shows us are largely conversion by force or death).

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Woodcarver

The difference I see is that Islam's death cult is institutionalized within their nations' governments and within their leaders. Christianity not so much. We have batcrap crazy Christians who do batcrap crazy things... and other Christians enforce laws that either imprison them or remove them from the list of the living... The Islamic world largely lacks that degree of checks and balances and shows zero indication of adopting it anytime soon.

I’ll say it again. I am not saying that one is better than the other. I think they are equally absurd. There are a lot of crazy christians in our government and i’m pretty sure they say it loud and proud that their religion shapes the way they make decisions.

Do you think muslims see the US attacking them and think to themselves that we are a christian nation?

How many non christian presidents have we had? How many non christian congressmen have we had?

I’m just saying, from the middle east’s perspective, this is christians killing muslims.

And to many christians, this is muslims who deserve to die. There are several posts in this thread that will attest to that.

a reply to: Woodcarver

I am not a Christian. I do not see the world through religious eyes at all.

I am also NOT an atheist.

Islam refuses to reform. Very few among the Muslim world truly understand the problem with the ideology itself. Those that do typically accept it and move on without a second thought. Very precious few see the need for deep reforms.

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: Woodcarver

I am not a Christian. I do not see the world through religious eyes at all.

I am also NOT an atheist.

I know, you are one of those enlightened folks who has made up your own religion. But, i’m sure that you’ll agree that christians and muslims see the world in religious terms, and they basically populate the world right?

But to christians and muslims.... this is about the differences in their religions. Christians think this is a christian country and christians make up the majority of our military. So when our military goes to muslim countries and says god is on our side, it sure looks like a christian nation attacking a muslim nation.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Do you think muslims see the US attacking them and think to themselves that we are a christian nation?

I think that's a difficult argument to make when you consider the fact that most of those countries, when not in the middle of jihad against the west or Israel, quickly turn to grotesquely bloody civil wars between Sunni and Shi'a sects over minor disagreements in meaning within the Quran. They see us as an infidel nation, hell... most of their leaders tend to rant and rave more about the fact that Israel is our ally than they do about our Christianity, so no, I don't think your argument is accurate.

ETA: You edited yet another of your posts while I was replying to it... I'm not saying Muslims "deserve to die." I'm saying I believe the Muslim faith, as it presently stands, is incompatible with life within the western world and will remain so until the day the Islamic faith decides to join us in the 21st century. You don't bring barn cats into the house and then act shocked when they rip up the curtains, break the china, and crap on the floors.

a reply to: Woodcarver

No.

This is about Islam vs Western values and especially US notions of liberty.

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: Woodcarver

No.

This is about Islam vs Western values and especially US notions of liberty.

Do our presidents invoke the christian god on a regular basis? Do they all say god bless America? Are the words “in god we trust” all over our money? Do most christians attest that this is a christian nation? Based on christian values? What would happen if trump noticeably stopped talking about god... or said something like allah bless America? What do you think would be the conversation after that?

I know that our government is supposed to be secular and non biased when it comes to religious affiliation.......but...... you know as well as i do that is not the case.

a reply to: seagull

Pay attention to how Sam Harris explains Islamic society.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Do you think muslims see the US attacking them and think to themselves that we are a christian nation?

I think that's a difficult argument to make when you consider the fact that most of those countries, when not in the middle of jihad against the west or Israel, quickly turn to grotesquely bloody civil wars between Sunni and Shi'a sects over minor disagreements in meaning within the Quran. They see us as an infidel nation, hell... most of their leaders tend to rant and rave more about the fact that Israel is our ally than they do about our Christianity, so no, I don't think your argument is accurate.

ETA: You edited yet another of your posts while I was replying to it... I'm not saying Muslims "deserve to die." I'm saying I believe the Muslim faith, as it presently stands, is incompatible with life within the western world and will remain so until the day the Islamic faith decides to join us in the 21st century. You don't bring barn cats into the house and then act shocked when they rip up the curtains, break the china, and crap on the floors.

Which of those countries were in jihad with the west before 911? Or after? Which of those “countries” attacked the US? Which of those countries have we declared war on?

How many millions of people has the US killed in these campaigns?

How many Americans have died?

a reply to: Dr UAE

can you read arabic?
if so, can you translate what the writing is on the statue of candy?



thank you

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: seagull

I don't see any baby in that tub. That would be the primary difference in our mental models on this topic.

ETA: I'm not saying you're wrong here. You're following what your conscience tells you to follow. I'm saying that I cannot take that step where this issue is concerned. On an individual level, trust and belief that there is good in a person is not a bad thing... if you're wrong, it's on you and you alone. On a national level, however, you can only go based off of what has been documented and empirically measured. By that metric, this is not an enemy we can afford to show our backs to. I go back to the concept of Taqiya, a concept which doesn't exist in Christianity and (to my knowledge) Judaism, which permits any manner of lies be told so long as they are told to advance the Muslim religion and/or serve the needs of jihad. I struggle with the idea of handing my respect and belief to a group which lives by a code that permits them to lie about their intents, beliefs, and purposes so long as the lies serve their religion's intentions (which history shows us are largely conversion by force or death).

Hold on, are you saying that christians don’t lie? Or can’t lie? Are they forbidden to decieve in warfare, and therefor don’t? It seems you are conflating an ideal with reality. There is what the bible teaches, and then there is the hard reality of the US bombing millions of innocents into oblivion.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Which of those countries have we declared war on?

Not a single one. The last time the United States officially declared war was during WWII. You may have meant which have we had military actions against... in which case, the Lebanese war and first Persian Gulf War were both authorized by the multinational UN Security Council. The second Iraq War and Afghanistan were in response to 911. What else do you have? Want to look at the list of states which have sponsored Islamic terrorism against the west? Libya, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Qatar, Turkey, the Sudan, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Syria, we'll be able to add the Muslim Brotherhood controlled countries like Egypt, Kuwait, Bahrain, and Yemen to that list soon enough, I'm sure.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Which of those countries have we declared war on?

Not a single one. The last time the United States officially declared war was during WWII. You may have meant which have we had military actions against... in which case, the Lebanese war and first Persian Gulf War were both authorized by the multinational UN Security Council. The second Iraq War and Afghanistan were in response to 911. What else do you have? Want to look at the list of states which have sponsored Islamic terrorism against the west? Libya, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Qatar, Turkey, the Sudan, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Syria, we'll be able to add the Muslim Brotherhood controlled countries like Egypt, Kuwait, Bahrain, and Yemen to that list soon enough, I'm sure.

Nope, that was the answer i was looking for. We have bombed 5 countries back to the stone age and killed millions of civilians with bombs and even more by destabilizing their countries. And we never declared war on any of them. All of our presidents that had any part of it invoked the christian god throughout the entire campaign.

How many westerners have died?

a reply to: burdman30ott6

en.wikipedia.org...

They've been doing this for a LONG time.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
Hold on, are you saying that christians don’t lie? Or can’t lie? Are they forbidden to decieve in warfare, and therefor don’t? It seems you are conflating an ideal with reality. There is what the bible teaches, and then there is the hard reality of the US bombing millions of innocents into oblivion.

I'm saying that a devout Christian violates their faith if they lie per the Bible. The Quran cannot make the same claim, as we can easily find that it teaches lies to be acceptable. As for the "bombing innocents" goes, who's to blame there... the party who is trying to end a war by eliminating the warmongers or the cowards who embed themselves in civilian populations in the hopes their innocent human shields will stop the west from attacking? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say cowardice, particularly cowardice that victimizes your own people, is not a virtue.

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: burdman30ott6

en.wikipedia.org...

They've been doing this for a LONG time.

Somehow I don't think they had as many defenders, apologists, and Stockholme Syndrome sufferers on their side among westerners in those days, though. That's a new wrinkle in this old tapestry.