Homepage What Happened When A Trump Supporter Challenged Me About the Wall

a reply to: carewemust

Trump is on it.

I don't think a proper wall will ever be built. Perhaps more fence. imo trump uses the symbol of a wall to express white dominance and to keep his supporters all riled up with something their minds can comprehend. A rallying cry of build the wall to cement solidarity to his cause, much like the "Lock her up" chant at his rallys. btw....Clinton hasn't even been indited.

Read this book and you will understand.

www.amazon.com...

originally posted by: villagesmithie
a reply to: pavil

No.

The point of the article is that a wall won't.

My point in the OP is that the debate is about politics not a solution to Immigration.

In fact immigration is not the problem it's portrayed to be but a political tool.

A problem can be used as a political tool, and immigration along with illegal immigration is a problem. Yes I said it, even legal immigration is a problem, as we are letting in to many people to quickly, as evidenced by the majority of "illegal immigrants" being legal immigrants overstaying their visas.

originally posted by: villagesmithie
a reply to: DBCowboy

Great debate technique. Avoid the real debate go for the absurd to make it sound crazy.

No.

Just no.

The left is afraid of the wall because it would be effective and permanent.


You have yet to convince me that the wall would not be effective.

Use science.

Data.

Maybe maths.

originally posted by: villagesmithie
a reply to: Quantumgamer1776

From the original article.

3. Walls have little impact on drugs being brought in to the US. According to the DEA, almost all drugs come in through legal points of entry, hidden in secret containers and/or among legit goods in tractor-trailers. A wall will have little to no impact on the influx of drugs into our country.

You poor thing.

You have obviously never lived in Texas or Arizona.

Almost all drugs that ARE FOUND are coming through legal points of entry.

Obviously, they can't count the amount of drugs that are coming through our southern border outside of the legal points of entry.

Because people just walk up north with them where they can.. you know, places without walls or security. Mules, they are called.

The majority of the drug trade from Mexico does not go through legal points of entry.

Because that's just stupid.

originally posted by: villagesmithie
a reply to: strongfp

source


OOOPPPS.

One of the sources linked from your source

Wall dont stop Unauthorized Migration?

Tell that to South Eastern Europe where erecting border fences cut the main route for people. It works.

What exactly does someone consider unauthorized immigration? That's a weird worded way of saying that.

The rest of the article is much like you......no solutions.

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: DBCowboy

Did you see the photo going around today of wall that successfully keeps people out of the VATICAN compound? It's a monster!

Apparently that's okay.

Because the pope is a leftist.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: villagesmithie

If walls and barriers are passé and outdated, just remove them from prisons.

I'll bet he locks his doors to both his house/apartment and car, too, even though those things supposedly don't work to keep people out.

originally posted by: villagesmithie
a reply to: Lumenari

Read the article.

6. Border patrol agents don’t like concrete or steel walls because they block surveillance capabilities. In other words, they can’t mobilize correctly to meet challenges. So in many ways, a wall makes their job more difficult.

7. Border patrol agents say, “Walls are meaningless without agents and technology to back them up.”

SoOo... what the article is saying is that walls would work if there were agents and technology to back it up.

So a part of securing the border is a wall.

Thanks for clarifying.

originally posted by: villagesmithie
a reply to: pavil

Above my pay grade.

I'm not saying I can solve it but if you read the article you will see that the majority of illegal immigrants are people who fly in and overstay.

I don't see how a wall fixes that.

and.......I'm not big on paying for repairs that don't address the problem.

It seems like you are the only person in the world that didn't watch all those videos about the caravans trying to enter the country by force.

Saying most illegal immigration is from people overstaying visas is garbage.

What magical eye in the sky is counting the illegals crossing the southern border, let alone the remote areas? The two numbers cannot be compared.

Nancy Pelosi called the wall, "Ineffective and immoral".

If it is ineffective, then how can it be immoral?

If it is immoral, then (by definition) it must be effective.

An unintended consequence is that a wall blocks farmworkers from EXITING when their invaluable seasonal work is done.

Really? Can't gates be in a wall, just like any other fence, to allow people to pass.

Do houses have doors in their walls?

lol.

a reply to: olaru12

Agree 100% that's the point I would like people to understand.

a reply to: villagesmithie

We disagree on this but I thank you for posting it.

I would like to go thru it point by point if you dont mind.

1. Walls don’t work. Illegal immigrants have tunneled underneath and/or erected ramps up and down walls to simply drive over them. People find a way. When East Germany erected its wall, it created a military zone, staffed by booted, machine-gun carrying guards ready to shoot to kill. Yet thousands managed to make it to West Germany anyway. More to the point, do we really want to model ourselves after communist East Germany?

This is selective commentary about walls. For example, we know the Israeli southern wall massively reduced illegal immigration from Africa. We know there are other examples of walls working as well.

The “wall” most comparable to what Trump is suggesting is the one along the southern border with Egypt.

That barrier—a “smart” barbed-wire structure equipped with cameras, radar and motion detectors—“was erected to prevent illegal [African] migrants from crossing over a once- porous border into Israel,” Yehuda Ben Meir, head of the National Security and Public Opinion Project at the Tel Aviv-based Institute for National Security Studies, related to The Media Line.

...

After breaking ground in 2010, Israel completed the 242-km. (150-mile) fence in December 2013 at a cost of around $450 million. Whereas about 9,500 Africans crossed into Israel illegally in the first six months of 2012, less than three dozen did so in the first six months of 2013, at which time the major components of the barrier had been completed.

Illegal immigration through Sinai dropped to 11 cases in 2016 and 0 in 2017.

www.jpost.com...

And funny she says a wall would be like East Germany. Why not the Vatican, which has a successful wall? Or for that matter the walls and fences wealthy people who complain about the wall put up around their homes. Her likening to east germany is clearly intentional as she seeks to smear people who want the wall as bad, or she would have chosen any other number of countries with walls, like Israel.

2. Most illegal immigrants are “overstayers.” They come to the US legally — for vacations, business, to study, etc. — and then STAY past their visas. By 2012, overstayers accounted for 58% (THE MAJORITY!) of all unauthorized immigrants. A wall is meaningless here!

Even left leaning politifact says the number of overstays is less than half.

www.politifact.com...

And when you consider that this is using numbers that show there are around 11 million immigrants, where some studies have the number as high as 24 million, there is no real way of knowing that number for sure.

But her point is valid, a wall wont stop these illegals, and they should be looked at as well.

However, these were people that were vetted and allowed in legally, so still slightly better than the ones who come across not vetted at all. And just because the wall wont solve all illegal immigration doesnt seem to be a reason to reject it.

3. Walls have little impact on drugs being brought in to the US. According to the DEA, almost all drugs come in through legal points of entry, hidden in secret containers and/or among legit goods in tractor-trailers. A wall will have little to no impact on the influx of drugs into our country.

I couldnt find the study she is citing, but I did find one saying that much fetnyal comes from palces like trucking routes from Mexico to the US.

thehill.com...

No doubt a wall wouldnt solve all drugs, as china is the main culprit, but surely it would solve some. Again,. hardly a reason to reject the wall.

4. It’s environmentally impractical. Walls have a hard time making it through extreme weather. For example, in 2011, a flood in Arizona washed away 40 feet of STEEL fencing. Torrential rains and raging waters do serious damage. Also, conservative sources generally do not address the environmental harm that walls create, but there is plenty of documentation available that show its potential for irreparable damage to both plant and animal life.

Illegal immigration also causes massive environmental damage.

cis.org...

www.scientificamerican.com...

There is no evidence cited by her how much enc=vironmental damage the wall would create. This seems to be a lame excuse when the same people making this claim will advicate wind mills that severely destroy endangered bird species. So they are selective on their criticism of a strcuture hurting the environment.

5. A wall would forces the U.S. government to take land from private citizens in eminent domain battles. Private citizens own much of the land slated for the wall. The costs of the government snatching private land — and the legal battles that would ensue — are incalculable.

True but so did the interstate highway system, construction of damns, wildlife preserves for endangered habitats, etc. Although a tricky problem, hardly worth scrapping the wall over.

6. Border patrol agents don’t like concrete or steel walls because they block surveillance capabilities. In other words, they can’t mobilize correctly to meet challenges. So in many ways, a wall makes their job more difficult.

This is anecdotal. The polls I read suggest the opposite.

Border Patrol agents say they can’t be much clearer: They want more walls along the U.S.-Mexico border.

In a survey conducted by the National Border Patrol Council, the agents’ union, they overwhelmingly supported adding a “wall system” in strategic locations, embracing President Trump’s argument that it will boost their ability to nab or deter would-be illegal immigrants.

www.washingtontimes.com...

7. Border patrol agents say, “Walls are meaningless without agents and technology to back them up.” Are we prepared to pour countless billions annually — after the wall is built — to create a nearly 2,000 mile, militarized 24-hour surveillance border operation? Because according to patrol agents, that’s the only way a wall would work. Again, are we really, going to use East Germany, a brutal communist state, as our model here?

Yes we need to do more than just the wall. Answered all of her claims of agents and east germany above.

8. Where walls have been built, there was “no discernable impact on the influx of unauthorized aliens.” In other words, they came in elsewhere, primarily where natural barriers such as water or mountainous regions precluded a wall.

Not true as I showed in the case of Israel.

More below

a reply to: DBCowboy

Read the article, read the references to the article.

It's not my job to convince people who are determined to not consider the facts.

a reply to: villagesmithie

No.

If you can't explain it, why should I bother?

a reply to: Lumenari

Yes i'm sure i"m stupid in your mind. Read the article, check the references, prove it wrong.

originally posted by: villagesmithie
a reply to: Lumenari

Read the article.

6. Border patrol agents don’t like concrete or steel walls because they block surveillance capabilities. In other words, they can’t mobilize correctly to meet challenges. So in many ways, a wall makes their job more difficult.

7. Border patrol agents say, “Walls are meaningless without agents and technology to back them up.”

In reply to #6... The Border Patrol wants a slated metal barrier so they can see thru yet block entry.

In reply to #7 we've never said just a wall........

Utilize all techs. Make E-Verify mandatory.


Why are border fences working in S.E. Europe?

9. An unintended consequence is that a wall blocks farmworkers from EXITING when their invaluable seasonal work is done. Farmers are against the wall because it makes getting cheap seasonal labor almost impossible as few American citizens want or can even do those jobs. And if seasonal worker do get in, a wall makes it harder for them to leave! A wall traps migrant farm laborers in our country.

Incredibly dumb argument that contradiucts number 8. Why wouldnt they just leave in the natural barriers she said would be exploited.

Once an illegal wants to leave, they could approach the wall and even tell the border patrol they were illegal and be sent home. Why would the wall force border patrol to allow illegals to stay. This argument is so dumb it makes me question all of the other points she is making.

10. Trump’s $5 billion is a laughable drop in the bucket for what would ACTUALLY be needed. For example, according to the Cato Institute: An estimate for a border wall area that only covered 700 miles was originally 1.2 billion. How much did it REALLY cost? SEVEN BILLION. And that’s only for 700 miles. Whatever we think it’s going to cost, experience shows us we have to multiply it by more than 500%.

11. According to MIT engineers, the wall would cost $31.2 billion. Homeland Security estimates it at $22 billion. Given the pattern of spending mentioned in number 10 (plus Murphy’s Law), that means we’re really talking about pouring endless billions into something that doesn’t even work. And, of course, we taxpayers will be footing the bill, not Mexico. Given all the drawbacks, is that REALLY the best use of our taxes?

First even the 32 billion is a pittance compared to our massive 4.5 trillion dollar budget. Given that we can send hundreds of billions of dollars in foriegn aid without people like this author complaining, why is price only a concern when securing the border?

This author then goes on to say no one could rebut her well reasoned arguments.

Perhaps she needs to be friends with someone like me who did so in about ten minutes.

I still contend the majority opposition to the wall is fear it will work, as the establishment in both parties like the cheap labor of illegal immigrants.