Secret Door in Great Sphinx leading to the Hall of Records (Cover up!)

Not really a good example , Harte, when you compare to a bowl that can balance on its own centre axis perfectly . It balances on its own egg shaped base because, -I’ll say it again- the centre point is as perfect as it can possibly be.
That is an accomplishment, a feat, a marvel for its time;
yet the truly baffling part to me is that you were a Mechanical Engineer , you see nothing of particular note about this object,and you admonish those who think such a thing . Kind of odd to me as a machinist. a reply to: Harte

Looks like everyone on Earth must have had advanced tools and knowledge that somehow evaporated into thin air, leaving not a trace of evidence.

Im not talking about an advanced metalworking Lathe , here, (the type I work on daily) im talking about a basic horizontal lathe set up to a springy pole (could have been a thin cast copper pole) or large plank to drive it.
Nothing out of the ordinary, no lasers, alien super diamonds, no electricity. So I don’t know why you infer that is the direction I’m going in. Oh, wait, I do know why, it’s a great tactic to gloss over the other points I have made that you don’t really want to answer.
And as a side note, we know the AE obviously recycled their copper tools, not many of those left compared to the number that must have been in existence at one time. a reply to: Harte

a reply to: bluesfreak

Well I actually do think that there was ancient advanced high technology. Electricity, lasers, levitation of stone blocks, etc.

But either way, we need to at least acknowledge the ancient advancements, and try to make sense of it, not just be in denial that they did a lot of things that are more advanced / impossible for modern humans to do.

a reply to: dragonridr

It's people who defend outdated theories that seem to think our ancestors were stupid. I think they were much smarter than people think and some small groups developed tools more advanced than copper chisels and stone hammers. Obviously, we haven't found any such advanced tools as of yet, but that could be down to many things such as time and the fact that they would have been very rare. The pyramids have probably been looted thousands of times over the years too, so all of the good stuff could have been found and recycled.

I think they were WAY smarter than we give them credit for.
And as for any ‘advanced tools’?(that could mean a respectably rigid Lathe, in the instance I’ve been talking about) - We won’t find any of them I’m afraid, long gone, recycled and reused. What we DO find, though, is the forensic fingerprints of the tool used, which gives us a rough indication of the method used for the job,even though many refuse to consider the forensics, or don’t understand them.
I’ve kind of always wondered why people think they are going to find any of these ‘advanced tools’ around the Pyramids themselves, the temples and tombs; when was the last time YOU saw a newly completed building where the builders left everything there that they had used to construct it? The forensics in the stone don’t lie if you know what you are looking at.reply to: Xabi87

originally posted by: bluesfreak
Not really a good example , Harte, when you compare to a bowl that can balance on its own centre axis perfectly . It balances on its own egg shaped base because, -I’ll say it again- the centre point is as perfect as it can possibly be.
That is an accomplishment, a feat, a marvel for its time;
yet the truly baffling part to me is that you were a Mechanical Engineer , you see nothing of particular note about this object,and you admonish those who think such a thing . Kind of odd to me as a machinist. a reply to: Harte

The claim:

This requires that the entire bowl have a symmetrical wall thickness without any substantial error! (With a base area so tiny - less than .15 " sq - any asymmetry in a material as dense as granite would produce a lean in the balance of the finished piece.) This kind of skill will raise the eyebrows of any machinist. To produce such a piece in clay would be very impressive. In granite it is incredible.

It would be impressive if you simply assume it came right off a lathe able to do that.
Please note that the above statement: "This requires that the entire bowl have a symmetrical wall thickness without any substantial error!" is absolutely false.
The bowl could have gone through weeks of work after it was finished, with craftsmen grinding various areas on it - inside and/or outside - so that it would balance so precisely.
Time is a resource they had plenty of.

BTW, I never said there was nothing of note. I'm AM saying that such a thing is not beyond the tools of the time - which doesn't include a lathe.

Harte

It would be impressive if you simply assume it came right off a lathe able to do that. Please note that the above statement: "This requires that the entire bowl have a symmetrical wall thickness without any substantial error!" is absolutely false.

Why?

If, as you say, it may have gone through ‘weeks of work...grinding’ after being roughly bashed into shape, then that makes it an EVEN MORE IMPRESSIVE object if it could somehow manage to be centred so correctly that it balances on its own centre, in fact, I would be more likely to state that THAT can’t be done without measurements, calculating the centre, or where to remove material from.
However, the very basics of Lathework will produce you the required form, centre ,internal shaping and balancing capability that this bowl displays.
Do you still not believe that they had different tooling/methods for different jobs and materials?
They had potters wheels , so therefore perfectly understood the concept of spinning the workpiece and working it whilst spinning; you are SO SURE that this concept couldn’t have been transferred to other methods?
There are perfect circles in the CENTRE of many of these bowls, bowls that show concentric, accurate striations , evenly spaced - a forensic sign of lathework, and you still deny there COULD have been basic, sturdy lathes??
The fact that these forensic tool markings show up in the CENTRE of these pieces, with other striations working toward them, shows the AE understood the concept of centering a workpiece for accuracy. They aren’t accidents . If they didn’t need to be in the centre, as you infer is done by primitive means, why do they show up in the centre?
Here is a piece that’s not even the bowl we’re talking about:

Lathework.
1) By the vertical primitive means, how is the piece kept on centre to ensure those fragile ‘walls’ extending upward aren’t broken, cracked or smashed? Answer: it was centred correctly, and rigidly.
2) by the unsteady primitive means, how is this piece so concentric? Answer: it was centred correctly and rigidly.
3) see the striations toward the centre? See the little circle in the centre? The forensics of Lathework , and a piece centred correctly and rigidly. On a Lathe.
Show this to ANY lathe operator. I dare you.
a reply to: Harte

originally posted by: bluesfreak
Not really a good example , Harte, when you compare to a bowl that can balance on its own centre axis perfectly . It balances on its own egg shaped base because, -I’ll say it again- the centre point is as perfect as it can possibly be.
That is an accomplishment, a feat, a marvel for its time;
yet the truly baffling part to me is that you were a Mechanical Engineer , you see nothing of particular note about this object,and you admonish those who think such a thing . Kind of odd to me as a machinist. a reply to: Harte

When looking at artifacts, the first thing you need to ask is "when was it made"? The stone bowls weren't produced all at one time... and many of the beautiful examples you look at were produced later in Egyptian history and there's a difference in how perfect they are. Earlier objects are not as perfect as those made in the New Kingdom and later.

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: bluesfreak
Not really a good example , Harte, when you compare to a bowl that can balance on its own centre axis perfectly . It balances on its own egg shaped base because, -I’ll say it again- the centre point is as perfect as it can possibly be.
That is an accomplishment, a feat, a marvel for its time;
yet the truly baffling part to me is that you were a Mechanical Engineer , you see nothing of particular note about this object,and you admonish those who think such a thing . Kind of odd to me as a machinist. a reply to: Harte

When looking at artifacts, the first thing you need to ask is "when was it made"? The stone bowls weren't produced all at one time... and many of the beautiful examples you look at were produced later in Egyptian history and there's a difference in how perfect they are. Earlier objects are not as perfect as those made in the New Kingdom and later.

On the other hand, non-organic materials can't be dated in the first place, so it's always an open question when exactly they were made.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but AFAIK only organic materials can be dated, right?

Which leaves artifacts like bowls and pottery as guess-work based on what they were found nearby.

Im pretty sure the stunning self balancing bowl is 2nd dynasty. Think I read it was found at Saqqara. So that makes it pretty early I’d say. But you’re the expert, maybe you could confirm this?
If it IS second dynasty then does that mean the AE got worse at making bowls as time went on, and technology could have advanced? Kind of puts paid to Harte’s “ thousands of years” practise, does it not?
Happy to be corrected on this , of course. a reply to: Byrd

a reply to: Harte

Interested parties will have already noted your dishonest quote mining of Byrd's link. Else why did you truncate the quote before it got to this part? Hard stone vessels were given their form by pounding them with hammerstones (See Drawing 1 in the diagram below) made of stone harder than the work piece itself. Sometimes copper saws were used, where the sawing action was due to quartz sand particles embedded in the metal [5].

No i am not being dishonest. You cannot hammer granite through a truncated swan neck and produce these effects with such balance. What on earth are you on about.

I stand by my statement. For it simply stands to reason that if these techniques have not been replicated. The vessels can not be made. I am correct and you cannot demonstrate otherwise.

If you disagre prove me wrong. Your not going to do it. I have simply debunked you.

a reply to: purplemer

Yeah, he needs to produce some evidence here to support his claim. He is the one making a claim that something can be done (in this case replicated) so he needs to back it up.

If he is right it should be simple to prove.

a reply to: Harte

Here's a diorite bowl from Moundville Alabama made by natives that had no more advanced tools (less advanced, in fact) than the AE's.

No ones cares about the diorite bowl. Stop beating around the bush. No one is disputing that peeps can make granite bowls.
Show me a swan neck that has been lathed out of hard rock to and you will point hold water.

Put up or shut up. Your wriggling about like a fish out of water.

Example shown below. You cant do it. Your point is mute

originally posted by: Xabi87
a reply to: purplemer

Yeah, he needs to produce some evidence here to support his claim. He is the one making a claim that something can be done (in this case replicated) so he needs to back it up.

If he is right it should be simple to prove.

Thank you for your reply.

If correct should be simple to do, Says it can be done but provides no evidence. Thats opinion based on imagination. I require something of more substance.

I think we can safely say at this point that some debunking has occurred. When one is wrong and it is demonstrating that should admit it. Some peeps find this hard to do.

a reply to: bluesfreak

AE got worse at making bowls as time went on, and technology could have advanced? Kind of puts paid to Harte’s “ thousands of years” practise, does it not? Happy to be corrected on this , of course. a reply to: Byrd

Yes that is what happened. Technology diminished over time.

a reply to: Byrd

When looking at artifacts, the first thing you need to ask is "when was it made"? The stone bowls weren't produced all at one time

erm yes they where.

These bowls and stone dishes/platters are some of the finest ever found, and they are from the earliest period of ancient Egyptian civilization. They are made from a variety of materials - from soft, such as alabaster, all the way up the hardness scale to very hard, such as granite.

I have asked you to provide my any evidence to show me how these hard swan necks where made. The link you sent me does not address this issue. Am I to take from this that you do not actually have any evidence and are only providing an opinion based on imagination. If this is the case its a very poor show from someone who allegedly knows there stuff. If you dont know something be honest and say so!

a reply to: Harte

I'm AM saying that such a thing is not beyond the tools of the time - which doesn't include a lathe.

Yawn.. I am saying you have no evidence to show me how this was made and that your opinion has been brutally debunked.

a reply to: bluesfreak

Stocks again getting credit for a proof of concept that doesn’t prove the concept .

That is correct its easy enough with soft stone granite is a different animal. Hard as it is Tap it the wrong way and it will break in an erratic way. I work with granite its not an easy rock to play with.

It looks to me like these so called experts dont exaclty know what they are talking about and make stuff up to fill in the gaps. Let this be a lesson not to always trust the experts and to make sure you use your mind and ask questions.

a reply to: peacefulpete

e: the Dogon tribe: I never got clear myself if that was real or hoaxed, as a lot of sources say, but it's worth researching.

Go and have a look. This peeps have not been hoaxed. This is there culture. Look at there head dressed. Its the orion system. They use the Ankh. They have hats the shapes of Djeds. They measure the Sothic cycle and in there own words they come from the Egyptian priest class and there job is to preserve the knowledge.

They have a wealth of infromation to share. Infact they are being further confirmed because they new about Sirius C too and low and behold peeps are now detecting the gravitational field of a third heavy object.