The Roswell Deception

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8
a reply to: scrounger

Enough of this... You're spreading false information and making it obvious you haven't read the Roswell Report at all. I don't know where your addendums are coming from, but the explanation of the "alien spacecraft" crash IS in the 1994 report. It makes me question your motive or maybe it's simply a lack of ability to focus because of the 993 pages. You're also confusing the two reports.

You keep repeating that the Air Force/government is hiding or trying to backpedal and fill in the holes of the story. READ THE REPORT because you're only making yourself look like an ill-informed blind believer. In MY THREAD I have the explanation of a simple in between service/research/experimental flight crashing on the Foster ranch. I provided the schematics, dates, documentation, and so forth you claim are missing. These are screen grabs and quotes directly from the Roswell Report. Technical drawings and descriptions of the in between flights are shown, the timing of the launch of a "regular sono bouy up in a cluster of balloons" on June 4th is shown, the distance of the launch 80 miles to the southwest of the Foster ranch in Alamogordo is shown, correspondence with the Air Coordinating Committee stating that other balloon flights from Alamogordo were descending in the area of Roswell, NM is shown, the July 14, 1947 news article from Mac Brazel describing debris found made up of rubber strips, foil, tough paper, and sticks is shown- debris that coincidentally match both this "spaceship" and balloon and radar targets. The construction materials, with a blueprint of a radar target, is also shown. Again, all facts supported in the Roswell Report.

If you have anything constructive to say or want to challenge me after reading the facts I provide first, do so in my thread please so I'm not hijacking miragemans. But stop being frantic and repeatedly spreading this false delusion.

Because someone does not believe official explanations regarding Roswell, or any other ufo case, does not make them a believer.

You moan about ufo ET believers and their beliefs, but people like you are doing exactly the same thing! Both as bad as eachother!
All about belief!

Why would SP have a need to know classified speed info about sr71?

A counterintelligence officer would want to know how such info was released to or obtained by SP.

Interesting post tho...

a reply to: scrounger

a reply to: scrounger

You're deflecting. You've been frantically arguing that the government has been stumbling around trying to come up with a good answer for Roswell 70 years later. A few of your quotes:
- along with EVERY ATTEMPT riddled with proven falsehoods, non backed up claims, and to date NO PROOF provided what it was.
- keeping count its now 70 years and roswell still no fact information given.
- the evidence presented (along with the governments bad reports) highly indicates it was not a weather balloon or project mogul.

The fact is that an answer and proof has been provided in the Roswell Report. So instead of frantically and obsessively posting that it hasn't or the explanation isn't good enough for you, now poke holes in the answers given. Poke holes in the documents, dates, timing, location, photographs, correspondence, etc. Follow a line of thought instead of spouting off ramblings. Have you actually studied and researched the incident yourself or are you only parroting what others have written or what you've heard? I have thoroughly researched it. Go poke holes in my thread. Do so from the beginning and development of MOGUL and on systematically as I did. If you're so strong in your convictions, show it as I did. You should have equally strong arguments and it should be easy for you. I'm waiting to be challenged.

Even through all of this, remember the burden of proof still lies with the claimant- Roswell was a crashed alien saucer. It's not up to prove what it wasn't.

originally posted by: Jay-morris
Because someone does not believe official explanations regarding Roswell, or any other ufo case, does not make them a believer.

You moan about ufo ET believers and their beliefs, but people like you are doing exactly the same thing! Both as bad as eachother!
All about belief!

Because they are speaking beliefs as if they are absolutes. They are arguing their belief as if Earth-bound aliens are an established fact. As if giving a balance between an Earthly answer and an alien answer is equal in comparison. It is not. ZERO evidence in 70 years and many thousands of claims establishes this fact.

I am a diehard non believer because the lack of facts. I've never denied that and have no problem with stating it. But that's not to say I'm closed minded to aliens visiting Earth. I am open to it through proven scientific fact. The same with religion. I'm agnostic rather than an atheist. An athesist typically denounces everything, an agnostic is open to the possibilty that there is a single driving force to the universe. This is how I feel in regard to visitation of aliens. It would be foolish to refuse to believe in the possibility.

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8

originally posted by: Jay-morris
Because someone does not believe official explanations regarding Roswell, or any other ufo case, does not make them a believer.

You moan about ufo ET believers and their beliefs, but people like you are doing exactly the same thing! Both as bad as eachother!
All about belief!

I am a diehard non believer because the lack of facts. I've never denied that and have no problem with stating it. But that's not to say I'm closed minded to aliens visiting Earth. I am open to it through proven scientific fact. The same with religion. I'm agnostic rather than an atheist. An athesist typically denounces everything, an agnostic is open to the possibilty that there is a single driving force to the universe. This is how I feel in regard to visitation of aliens. It would be foolish to refuse to believe in the possibility.

This thread, and others like it on Roswell, reminds me of the debates on 9-11, and on religious disputes.

Cold hard facts caught up in the winds of faith and dragged into the mire where their remnants flutter in the breeze; sticks and tin foil catching a glint of sunlight that blinds the passerby, and in his mind whole new universes are created.

The impression I get from these kind of threads is that language is hopelessly inadequate to express deep emotional and psychological impulses in people - which events like Rosell and 9-11 seem to evoke - perhaps we should investigate the reason why some events have this effect but others do not - as I see it people seem to delight in setting fire to the logic of semantics and then standing back to warm themselves from the inferno. Is it because language is anathema to archetypes of the subconcious?

Wasn't language originally devised as an accounting tool?

Perhaps people should paint what they think of Roswell. Or compose some music. How about flower arranging?

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8

originally posted by: Jay-morris
Because someone does not believe official explanations regarding Roswell, or any other ufo case, does not make them a believer.

You moan about ufo ET believers and their beliefs, but people like you are doing exactly the same thing! Both as bad as eachother!
All about belief!

Because they are speaking beliefs as if they are absolutes. They are arguing their belief as if Earth-bound aliens are an established fact. As if giving a balance between an Earthly answer and an alien answer is equal in comparison. It is not. ZERO evidence in 70 years and many thousands of claims establishes this fact.

I am a diehard non believer because the lack of facts. I've never denied that and have no problem with stating it. But that's not to say I'm closed minded to aliens visiting Earth. I am open to it through proven scientific fact. The same with religion. I'm agnostic rather than an atheist. An athesist typically denounces everything, an agnostic is open to the possibilty that there is a single driving force to the universe. This is how I feel in regard to visitation of aliens. It would be foolish to refuse to believe in the possibility.

I need 100% proof that some of these ufos are ET. Have we had that proof yet? No! But we have overwhelming evidence that something in our air space is flying around. Militery and pilot sightings alone tell us this. So This subject needs further investigation to find out what is going on here because something is.

As for roswe'll, I think they care still lying about what happened there. Thst does not mean ET, but they are obviously covering up something. I am open to this theory that Roswell was done to deceive the Russians, and that could be the case.

Like I said earlier, and this is the problem.

Government says weather balloon- people believe that no questions asked.

Then project Mogal- Same people believe that, no questions asked.

Deceiving the Russians ( not official ) same people will believe this, no questions asked.

Can you see the pattern here. It's all belief! Some people would rather believe anything that does not point to ET. They will go with one explanation after another, after a while, ignoring the past explanations they said was fact before.

Some people moan about ufo ET believers and their beliefs, but the funny thing is, those exact people are using their own beliefs, just the other side of of coin.

As long as we have certain ufos that defy explanation, then no one can say what they are until we know. Could be alien, could be secret government craft, could be to deceive other countries, could be anything.

a reply to: Jay-morris

One thing you said is very true: People will believe things without question. There is a spectrum of belief. On the one extreme are the die hard believers that believe that the Ghost Rockets, Roswell, and name any other UFO case is ET in nature. Nothing will convince them otherwise. On the opposite extreme are the diehard skeptics who believe it couldn't possibly be ET and nothing will convince them otherwise. Not because of lack of proof but because when evidence is presented it is ignored.

An organization like MUFON calls itself scientific but it is really on the wide eyed believer end of the belief spectrum. Any new evidence or theory that doesn't lean toward the ET explanation, MUFON ignores. So I don't expect I will be invited any time soon to present at a MUFON symposium. That is not science - that is belief - pure and simple. Skeptic organizations have the same issues just at the opposite end.

If you want to find truth, then you need to migrate to the sober middle of the belief spectrum where you can formulate a hypothesis that others can argue the evidence for - pro and con. Arguing evidence is the only thing that separates opinion from true inquiry. All I have heard so far on this discussion thread is conjecture, belief position and arguing past each other.

Let's take Project Mogul. Is it possible that what was recovered at Roswell was really a Project Mogul balloon? Absolutely! If that is truth, then the ET explanation doesn't hold water. If it was Mogul, it does not negate the theory in my book that the entire flying saucer summer of 1947 was a deception operation. Mogul rules out ET but not deception.

I am open to the possibility of ET visitation. Hell, statistically speaking WE ARE NOT ALONE in the Universe. That does not mean that UFO = ET. Some UFOs could be ET. I just don't see from all of my research from 1947 that ANY of the UFOs seen in 1947 were ET. Zero evidence to support that. If you want to argue your position on Kenneth Arnold, Roswell, or any other case from 1947 then present your best evidence to support your argument. Saying you believe a witness is credible is not an argument, it is an opinion and doesn't prove your position.

My previous post in this this thread was about Roswell facts. No one has argued my facts are incorrect. If you are a pro-ET proponent of Roswell, you should be able to argue against those facts in this thread. If you are a pro-Mogul proponent, those facts don't contradict your position but you are welcome to argue against them as well.

Regards,
James

a reply to: jamescarrion

Very true, people have such a strong willingness to believe something that it appears to override commons sense, facts and evidence or lack of.

I see Ufology as an illness and it seems unfortunately that it's terminal.

There is such a lack of real investigation in most cases to determine what "it" actually is, all we are left with is those that believe, those that don't arguing why they do or don't and no progress is made at all. Noone appears to be bothered to solve the mystery.....as it would go against what they already believe if the opposite were true.

Ufology needs to evolve and the people along with it, that however is probably wishful thinking.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

Sigh
I see you have also not even read the report in anyway.

here is a DIRECT QUOTE (psst I posted it earlier as well)

"In the July 1994 Report of Air Force Research Regarding the Roswell Incident, the Air Force did not dispute that something happened near Roswell, but reported that the most likely source of the wreckage was from the balloon-launched classified government project designed to determine the state of Soviet nuclear weapons research. "

They clearly state SOMETHING crashed in roswell.

they state "most likely source of wreckage.....balloon-launched classified government project"

Not it was project mogul, flight XX launched on XX date.

But "MOST LIKELY " and "BALLOON LAUNCHED CLASSIFIED GOVERNMENT PROJECT"

In short confirmed ZERO.

I can get from ben richards book "the skunk works" the specs on the U2, what payload (and specs) it carried, the pilots, the routes, and even every mission they flew in the 60s .
So you can compare crashes and UFO sighting to its KNOWN FLIGHTS and confirm what it was.

this all available 28 years after the fact.

its now 70 plus years and we get "most likely"
along with there is NOTHING balloon carried in 1947 that has any technical superiority (much less same level) as the U2 , the missions could not be anymore classified than the U2, but yet we still have NO PROOF of it as what crashed.

but yet you scream how I am deflecting, the government has answered what it was, any facts that contradict the government story are false, and that anyone questioning it (like me) is not facing reality... but just a "ufo believer"

again for the 10th plus time

I dont know exactly what crashed in roswell , but I do know the government STILL HASNT CONFIRMED WITH FACTS what crashed there.

there is solid evidence that it MAY (KEY WORD MAY) not be from this planet.

unless you can PROVE EXACTLY WHAT CRASHED THERE you cant claim it was a government secret project.

scrounger

originally posted by: jamescarrion
a reply to: scrounger

Perhaps establishing some facts will make this conversation more productive:

1. It has never been conclusively established that something "crashed" at Roswell, only that something was recovered. There is no contemporaneously recorded evidence from 1947 that shows something was seen flying and crashing.

Um here is A DIRECT QUOTE FROM the government report "roswell case closed"



"In the July 1994 Report of Air Force Research Regarding the Roswell Incident, the Air Force did not dispute that something happened near Roswell, but reported that the most likely source of the wreckage was from the balloon-launched classified government project designed to determine the state of Soviet nuclear weapons research. "


2. There is zero contemporaneous evidence from any of the principles including Jesse Marcel that memorialized at the time the events surrounding Roswell. Contemporaneous as in a diary recorded in 1947 or soon after, a newspaper interview from 1947 or soon after, etc.

so any evidence that doesnt come from an "official government report" isnt evidence?
so (for one example) all the witnesses of what the mob did is not accurate or factual because the mob didnt keep records of all its illegal activites?


3. A "credible" witness does not equate to a "truthful" witness as memories and events can become distorted with time. For example, let's take any of the pilots who claimed to have transported the Roswell debris in 1947. The Roswell AAFB transport unit were known as the Green Hornets and they transported Top Secret material all the time, for example, when transporting atomic bomb equipment and personnel from Operation Task Force 1.5 to Bikini Atoll. How would one of these pilots have remembered exactly which of their "Top Secret" flights was Roswell debris and which was just one of their routine Top Secret flights?

can you prove what the "green hornets" transported was wrong?
what evidence do you have they are "mistaken"?
you have classified files showing what exactly they flew was accurate and what was not?
what proof do you have that major marcel has lied?
that is was prone to fancy and that he would risk his reputation and pension to lie?

4. Witness testimony gathered decades after the fact is suspect. To be believable requires contemporaneously recorded evidence.

we use "witness testimony gathered decades later" all the time
in fact what do you think they use when they convict nazi war criminals from death camps DECADES after the fact?
that is just one example



Regards,
James

In short AGAIN I dont know exactly what crashed (yes the government CONFIRMED IN ITS OWN REPORT YOU QUOTE) at roswell.

the government to date has not given PROOF of what it was.

You cant PROVE what crashed but your so quick to say "it isnt possible in any way to be alien in nature" and anyone who looks at the evidence, government LIES , and testimony and says MAYBE is a "ufo believer"

before I say "case closed" FACTS are needed and alot of theories are possible until then

BTW one quick point of reference....

to say it could NOT BE ALIEN IN NATURE you have to first BELIEVE THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY of a superior lifeform living within our galaxy...
that truly is denial in the extreme

Scrounger

I noticed something in this whole discussion about roswell and UFO research in general

those claiming roswell cant be alien, UFO to exist must have positive verified proof to be believed as a possibility and those calling ANYONE who even suggests aliens have visited earth have to believe in ONE FACT to hold this opinion.

that is there is no intelligent life in the universe (or even in our own milky way galaxy) and that if there is it could not have mastered FTL travel because.... we humans have not or have no proof its possible.

think of the arrogance that says?

that with all the stars in just our galaxy that we are the ONLY LIFE just because we havent found them and we havent ourselves developed FTL tech (or even working theories).

In short because we havent done it someone else/something else cant/doesn't exist?


Seems to me those that claim "its always aliens" are the same as those claiming "it cant ever be aliens".

Im sorry but sometimes it could be aliens and sometimes not.

food for thought

scrounger

After Roswell, aliens recalled that same model of flying saucer, around the galaxy, and made improvements on it, which don't crash so much, now!!

a reply to: scrounger

You stated "there is solid evidence that it may not be from this planet."

Can you please cite contemporaneous evidence from 1947 that backs up that assertion? Yes, there is witness testimony collected decades after the event that supports your statement, but that testimony is suspect based on well researched scientific studies that show memory to be both fallible and subject to change based on outside influence.

Someone in this thread made a statement that people are convicted decades after the fact based on witness testimony, i.e. for Nazi war crimes. That is a true statement but not the whole picture. There is contemporaneously recorded events from the 1930s to the 1940s to back up Nazi victim testimony. For example, a prosecuted concentration camp prison guard has a personnel record that shows they were at the camp. There are meticulously kept records that name the victims of the camp. There are blueprints of the gas chambers, etc. There are bodies that can be examined. If witness testimony was all that Nazi war crimes prosecutors had to go on then I would venture to say those war criminals would be free men today.

If we look at Roswell, we have no contemporaneously recorded evidence that leans towards an ET explanation for what was recovered at Roswell. We would not have a Roswell Report today if the Air Force did not feel the tremendous pressure exerted by the public and politicians to put an explanation on what pro-ET researchers claim Roswell was - an ET event. They would have simply ignored the event as they did prior to all of the sensational claims surrounding it just as they ignored it in their official studies under Project Sign, Grudge and Bluebook. But those outside pressures put the Air Force in the position of having to provide some explanation for what was recovered at Roswell. Mogul was a convenient candidate.

In the end, it doesn't matter whether it was Mogul or a run of the mill weather balloon. UFO researchers spend too much time trying to ascertain WHAT was recovered at Roswell, instead of exploring WHY the 509th put a stamp of authenticity by announcing the recovery. I even heard from a Mogul proponent recently that the 509th HAD to put out a press release. Nonsense - there was no need to add fuel to a raging fire of public consternation because of all of the flying saucer stories making the headlines. The 509th had many options at its disposal - say nothing - admonish Brazel and others to do their patriotic duty and stay quiet, etc. Instead they chose the worst way of keeping something quiet - putting out a press release. My book provides a viable hypothesis for WHY the 509th chose the path of MOST resistance.

Regards,
James

a reply to: scrounger

Let's examine the loosely used term "crashed".

ET proponents - for Roswell to be an alien spacecraft, something had to be flying and crashed. There is zero 1947 evidence to back that up as there are no local witnesses who saw this spacecraft fly overhead and crash and then recorded their memories of the event soon after.

Mogul proponents - for Roswell to be a Mogul balloon, it goes without saying that when a balloon goes up, it must come down, I don't think anyone calls a balloon coming back down to earth a "crash".

The Air Force was simply responding to ET proponents claiming that something "crashed"...

Your assertion that to deny the ET possibility for Roswell is to deny life in the Universe makes no sense. If I said that an ET killed JFK and to deny that possibility would be to deny life in the Universe equally makes no sense. Conflagrating the two is a silly argument. I have already stated that I believe there is life in the Universe but that doesn't mean they have visited Earth or crashed in 1947. We have no solid evidence of either. Yes it is a possibility but based on evidentiary standards, a very low probability.

a reply to: jamescarrion

sigh

first mixing JFK into the discussion is deflection and piss poor at that.

no one EVER suggested an alien killed JFK but a HUMAN .
In that debate it is over wither its Lee harvey oswald , more than him or not him

what you miss is to claim roswell or any ufo incident cant be alien (yes if there is clear facts its terrestrial thats another matter) at all says you must believe either we are the only life or that life cannot have the tech to reach us.

those direct words BTW have been used by "experts".

yes the airforce said something has crashed and not to just silence critics but because the evidence is clear SOMETHING crashed.
the military just doesnt get a bunch of service personnel , cordon off an area, stay there for a day or more, threaten those in the area who may have seen something, gather truckload of pieces and fly it out of there for shlits and giggles.

all of these facts are directly stated by the miltary or undeniable by witnesses.

but AGAIN what crashed is STILL A MYSTERY.

I defy anyone to present FACTS what EXACTLY CRASHED...
because (as I have quoted now three times) from the air force "roswell case closed" they have confirmed a crash, but not what crashed.

so most theories (outside of your silly JFK comment) are still on the table
weather balloon, project mogul, another formerly relevant secret project, and yes even an alien craft.

scrounger

originally posted by: turbonium1
After Roswell, aliens recalled that same model of flying saucer, around the galaxy, and made improvements on it, which don't crash so much, now!!

that is funny but at same time logical

if we constantly have things that fail, crash, and dont work as planned that we fix why would an alien be any different?

Scrounger

a reply to: scrounger

I can see rational arguments won't be of use in this discussion ...

To have a rational argument we must agree on a basis for what constitutes truth... you still can't cite contemporaneous evidence to something crashing at Roswell...instead you focus on what witnesses AND the Air Force said decades after the fact... put your cards on the table and show your proof...

This discussion is akin to someone who doesn't believe in vaccines going to an American Medical Association (AMA) conference and trying to argue their position... a complete waste of time...

Funny how you called my JFK statement a "deflection"... it is far from that ...it simply points out the extreme weakness of your arguments...

a reply to: jamescarrion

sigh

I did provide PROOF

It came from the air force 1994 (correcting date) report.

I stand corrected in that this was the report BEFORE "roswell case closed" 1997

here it is again WORD FOR WORD

"In the July 1994 Report of Air Force Research Regarding the Roswell Incident, the Air Force did not dispute that something happened near Roswell, but reported that the most likely source of the wreckage was from the balloon-launched classified government project designed to determine the state of Soviet nuclear weapons research. "

I have answered you what you asked for as PROOF that something crashed.

its from the AIR FORCE....

now what deflection you gonna use

scrounger

a reply to: scrounger

THAT is your proof of an alien spacecraft crashing at Roswell? Because the Air Force said something crashed, but said it decades later?


Where in your PROOF quote is the word "crashed" ... I don't see it...

Are we even on the same planet?