I can't imagine not having a national health service funded by taxes.

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
I have a disease called Meniere's, it is a condition with no cure which results in deafness and permanent lack of balance.

It sounds like you have your parents to thank for that.

The most important hot button issue facing the American public is Health care, especially with an ageing population.

If I was a democrat, I would hammer health care as my primary issue and kick the GOP out.

I'm much more afraid of getting sick and being forced into poverty than continued tax benefits for the rich.

www.businessinsider.com...

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are also Constitutionally mandated. You can't have any of those things if you don't have your health.

Nice sidestep though. You missed my point entirely, intentionally.

Working, exchanging your personal time, only to have your wages go into someone else's pocket to ease their budgeting concerns over health care fulfills the worker's goals of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness how, exactly?

a reply to: Serdgiam

Agreed. More spending isn't going to help anyone.

I think the fundamental problem is that we hate seeing budget cuts. We get used to a particular amount of funds being dumped into whatever program it is and then set the bar there... with any increase in spending the bar moves up, but we never want to see it go down. All the while we have the exact opposite mindset in regards to taxes.

Basically we want vast amounts of welfare programs but don't want to pay for them. And the things we do pay for, we're not willing to sacrifice.

A2D

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are also Constitutionally mandated. You can't have any of those things if you don't have your health.

Nice sidestep though. You missed my point entirely, intentionally.

Working, exchanging your personal time, only to have your wages go into someone else's pocket to ease their budgeting concerns over health care fulfills the worker's goals of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness how, exactly?

But, where do the taxes to fund the military come from?

If you didn't see my previous post, I'm honestly not trolling, I'm just not understanding your reasoning.

originally posted by: Thejoncrichton
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Just think. You're able to have that in your country because America is busy putting all the money in the R&D so medical technology and advances keep coming. Without the US, these innovations would be MUCH SLOWER.

Combine that with your subsidized national defense, thanks to the US. Without those, you would have no national healthcare. Your country basically still lives in mom and dad's basement.

Yes this is correct.

People that compare the US healthcare system to socialized ones are just ignorant.

US health care costs are more than double. Why? Because our doctors are paid 4 times as much, they have to pay for medical malpractice insurance from all the lawyers. Our drug costs are like 10 times higher because our government allows it. Hospital chains have a monopoly on things like MRI licenses so they keep those costs high.

The medical industry is literally 25% of the American economy. Should it be that high - of course not.

How do we drop costs without major turmoil - well it is not easy even if we wanted to. But congress is paid off by the medical industry through lobbyists, and have absolutely no desire to.

The problem 1000% with the US system is medical costs. It has nothing to do with if the system is socialized or not.

Look at the Health insurance companies - they only have profit margins around 5%. Now if you think the government will not produce more than 5% in cost of more inefficiency you don't understand how government works.

The best way to drop costs is have a free market system, and stop allowing the hospitals to hide costs, have different costs for every type of customer, and to be incentivized to pick the most expensive treatment they can get away with.

Costs will drop, and we will continue to have the best medical care in the world.

a reply to: narrator

We seem to be re-embracing tariffs, so there's that.

My point is that, in general, I am opposed to income taxes. They are a form of theft. That said, we seem to be stuck with them. They are used to pay for something which is Constitutionally mandated; the Pentagon. Why, in the world, would anyone call for any additional mandates such as nationalized healthcare to be added to the federal government's required tasks when the result will purely be much higher taxes? Military budgets aren't going to go down, you and I both know that. All universal healthcare will lead to is dramatically higher taxes on Americans and, in some states such as New York, earners are already paying over half of their earnings in the form of taxes. That's unacceptable. It's indentured servitude to the government and that absolutely is not what this country was founded for... in fact it's the opposite of what this country was founded for.

If you want universal healthcare, move to Europe. If you want freedom and personal responsibility, reside in (some of) the States, period.

originally posted by: olaru12
If I was a democrat

Uh, you are. That's been made abundantly clear over these 6 years, so why the "if?"

originally posted by: BrianFlanders

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
I have a disease called Meniere's, it is a condition with no cure which results in deafness and permanent lack of balance.

It sounds like you have your parents to thank for that.

Lol, I'll take responsibility for whatever genetic defect I inherited...I'm just glad I get treated by the hospital free at the point of need from my taxes.
You got any comment about that or just want to make sly jabs at my parents in the usual arrogant and angry style you post?

originally posted by: narrator

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are also Constitutionally mandated. You can't have any of those things if you don't have your health.

Nice sidestep though. You missed my point entirely, intentionally.

Working, exchanging your personal time, only to have your wages go into someone else's pocket to ease their budgeting concerns over health care fulfills the worker's goals of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness how, exactly?

But, where do the taxes to fund the military come from?

If you didn't see my previous post, I'm honestly not trolling, I'm just not understanding your reasoning.

I dont want to get too involved in the middle of y'alls conversation but I feel a small obligation to point out how I feel about the matter.

I will gladly pay taxes for the military. They protect our nation as a whole. Our land, our freedoms... it's for all of us, paid by all of us.

Paying for the nations welfare or healthcare is similar, but not exactly the same. You see, I support universal healthcare...but what I want MORE is health education. I do not want, and do not feel obligated, to pay for the healthcare costs of MILLIONS of Americans who give no #s a out their own health. Diabetes because of unhealthy diets, cancer because of unhealthy habits, accidents because of unsafe practices...

I will GLADLY pay taxes if they go towards NO-FAULT health claims. However if you eat McDonald's everyday and get diabetes...I'm sorry, get your own insulin.

A2D

originally posted by: narrator

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are also Constitutionally mandated. You can't have any of those things if you don't have your health.

Nice sidestep though. You missed my point entirely, intentionally.

Working, exchanging your personal time, only to have your wages go into someone else's pocket to ease their budgeting concerns over health care fulfills the worker's goals of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness how, exactly?

But, where do the taxes to fund the military come from?

If you didn't see my previous post, I'm honestly not trolling, I'm just not understanding your reasoning.

You are not understanding the scale.

Our military funding is close to 800 billion a year. Medicare spending is currently about 700 billion. Medicaid spending is another 560 billion.

It is estimated going full single payer is another 3 TRILLION per year.

All taxes currently collected are about 3.4 Trillion.

Single payor would at a minimum require a doubling of federal taxes. This would destroy the economy.

Combine this with the fact medical costs have risen 8% per year - Do your wages rise 8% a year? NO - not even close.

The problem is costs - feeding more cash or the same amount of cash at a broken system will not fix the system - it will encourage it to continue to grow in cost.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: narrator

We seem to be re-embracing tariffs, so there's that.

My point is that, in general, I am opposed to income taxes. They are a form of theft. That said, we seem to be stuck with them. They are used to pay for something which is Constitutionally mandated; the Pentagon. Why, in the world, would anyone call for any additional mandates such as nationalized healthcare to be added to the federal government's required tasks when the result will purely be much higher taxes? Military budgets aren't going to go down, you and I both know that. All universal healthcare will lead to is dramatically higher taxes on Americans and, in some states such as New York, earners are already paying over half of their earnings in the form of taxes. That's unacceptable. It's indentured servitude to the government and that absolutely is not what this country was founded for... in fact it's the opposite of what this country was founded for.

If you want universal healthcare, move to Europe. If you want freedom and personal responsibility, reside in (some of) the States, period.

No, not period. It's already in the Constitution that it's legal to collect taxes for general welfare (i.e., healthcare), in the same article that makes military taxes legal, so we wouldn't need a convention or anything like that. Just majority % to put it into effect.

I would gladly pay more taxes, if I (and others) were to get things that we care about in return. There is zero justification for the military to have that big of a budget, and I don't particularly like the military to begin with, but I have to pay for it by law. If my taxes were raised in order to pay for healthcare as well, I would feel infinitely better about paying taxes, even though my tax % went up.

I look at it like this. By law, I am required to pay for people to kill other people (military). I'm not ok with that at all. It clearly doesn't go strictly towards defense now (who are we defending the country from often enough that we need $800ish Billion dollars to fund it?). Therefore, it's a budget to go play world police and bomb a bunch of places we have no business being. But, I have to pay it. If I were given the opportunity to pay for life, and health, I would jump at the chance. It would offset the killing tax.

We just have differences in opinion of where our money should go. Neither of us are wrong. Just different opinions.

originally posted by: proximo

originally posted by: narrator

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are also Constitutionally mandated. You can't have any of those things if you don't have your health.

Nice sidestep though. You missed my point entirely, intentionally.

Working, exchanging your personal time, only to have your wages go into someone else's pocket to ease their budgeting concerns over health care fulfills the worker's goals of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness how, exactly?

But, where do the taxes to fund the military come from?

If you didn't see my previous post, I'm honestly not trolling, I'm just not understanding your reasoning.

You are not understanding the scale.

Our military funding is close to 800 billion a year. Medicare spending is currently about 700 billion. Medicaid spending is another 560 billion.

It is estimated going full single payer is another 3 TRILLION per year.

All taxes currently collected are about 3.4 Trillion.

Single payor would at a minimum require a doubling of federal taxes. This would destroy the economy.

Combine this with the fact medical costs have risen 8% per year - Do your wages rise 8% a year? NO - not even close.

The problem is costs - feeding more cash or the same amount of cash at a broken system will not fix the system - it will encourage it to continue to grow in cost.

But most people don't bat an eye, and don't notice it in their paycheck, when the military budget goes up every single year.

I completely understand the scale. I know it'd be hard to implement. But, if we cut the military budget in half and reallocate it towards healthcare, we wouldn't have to come up with as much additional taxes.

I recognize it'd be a dramatic change. In this case, I feel change is good.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Yet you are ok with your taxes going into the military to the tune of $600+ billion dollars? Spare me your alligator tears over taxes.

originally posted by: Agree2Disagree

originally posted by: narrator

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are also Constitutionally mandated. You can't have any of those things if you don't have your health.

Nice sidestep though. You missed my point entirely, intentionally.

Working, exchanging your personal time, only to have your wages go into someone else's pocket to ease their budgeting concerns over health care fulfills the worker's goals of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness how, exactly?

But, where do the taxes to fund the military come from?

If you didn't see my previous post, I'm honestly not trolling, I'm just not understanding your reasoning.

I dont want to get too involved in the middle of y'alls conversation but I feel a small obligation to point out how I feel about the matter.

I will gladly pay taxes for the military. They protect our nation as a whole. Our land, our freedoms... it's for all of us, paid by all of us.

Paying for the nations welfare or healthcare is similar, but not exactly the same. You see, I support universal healthcare...but what I want MORE is health education. I do not want, and do not feel obligated, to pay for the healthcare costs of MILLIONS of Americans who give no #s a out their own health. Diabetes because of unhealthy diets, cancer because of unhealthy habits, accidents because of unsafe practices...

I will GLADLY pay taxes if they go towards NO-FAULT health claims. However if you eat McDonald's everyday and get diabetes...I'm sorry, get your own insulin.

A2D

It's just a difference in opinion then. I thank you for your service, but honestly, I don't gladly pay taxes for the military. I don't feel that in this day and age the military *truly* protects us. They mostly play world police. This isn't to downplay your service, I'm truly thankful for it, and I have several friends and family members who have served as well, and I owe a debt of gratitude to all of them.
But, the military budget is out of hand. It doesn't take $800 billion a year to protect the country.

I have to re-emphasize, I have a ton of respect for you and your service, I just disagree with you on the necessity of having this big of a military.

a reply to: narrator

It is a massive stretch to call healthcare "general welfare", particularly when we have a healthcare system which is primarily expending money of elective procedures and/or procedures brought about by the direct choices of the patient. General Welfare was not a catch-all for the feds to provide things. I could argue food, housing, entertainment, transportation, sex, etc are all "general welfare" issues... yet I can't even write off my rent or grocery bill on my taxes, hell, I can't write off my medical expenses, either, thus... not general welfare issues.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Yet you are ok with your taxes going into the military to the tune of $600+ billion dollars? Spare me your alligator tears over taxes.

I'd be a lot more OK if we'd return to claiming spoils from our military adventures, but yeah.

Simple question:

as citizen of another country looking at the U.S. would you say that you more trust or don't trust the intentions or actions of the United States government?

I'm assuming here, but I'm willing to wager that you most likely fall more on the don't trust side. So you can see our hesitancy to hand over more power and control to an already massively corrupt and bloated entity of sheer darkness and decay.

That being said, I'm in favor of exploring socialized medicine. In fact, with the further advancement of genomics leading to what will inevitably transition to customized healthcare the U.S.'s current insurance system is anachronistic to where healthcare is heading. However, there is a lot more that has to go into it than just flipping a switch and then everything is suddenly hunky dory. The United States has to clean house of a myriad of ills plaguing our government. I don't mean that as a corny Trumpism, but just a simple reality.

a reply to: Agree2Disagree

I definitely feel its a far more expansive conversation than simply whether or not we should spend more. I think how the "debate" has been framed results in.. no results.

For instance, I would support something like a completely inclusive welfare program (anyone who applies is accepted). However, I could never support it under current paradigms.

I'd rather see such programs foster self-sufficiency and self-reliance. Something like: instead of food stamps, leveraging modern technology to enable families to grow & produce their own food (even in urban areas).Though, that just isn't the conversation "everyone" is having. Its more "we spend too much" versus "we need to help."

As you rightly mention, budget allocation is a problem too. Its simplified, but there is little to no incentive to participate in smart spending and PLENTY of motivation to spend tax dollars out the wazoo. That's a problem regardless of whether or not one supports the program in question!

The way I see it, there are quite a few different aspects that are detrimental to sorting anything out here. But, unless and until the general conversation grows beyond throwing or withholding money as some sort of comprehensive, all encompassing solution.. I'm not convinced we will actually make progress in such situations.

Beyond all that, I'm convinced there is something fishy going on with many of these programs. It took me a decade (!!) to get on disability, despite severe documented problems. (ETA: My 3rd rejection was because I am, and I quote, 'partially ambulatory.' Seriously.) In that same timeframe, there were folks in my general social circle that got accepted for things like anxiety in months. It was also made clear to me that doing things like saving my money received was taboo. Granted, the monthly amount is laughable, so in practice its not particularly relevant.

originally posted by: narrator

originally posted by: proximo

originally posted by: narrator

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are also Constitutionally mandated. You can't have any of those things if you don't have your health.

Nice sidestep though. You missed my point entirely, intentionally.

Working, exchanging your personal time, only to have your wages go into someone else's pocket to ease their budgeting concerns over health care fulfills the worker's goals of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness how, exactly?

But, where do the taxes to fund the military come from?

If you didn't see my previous post, I'm honestly not trolling, I'm just not understanding your reasoning.

You are not understanding the scale.

Our military funding is close to 800 billion a year. Medicare spending is currently about 700 billion. Medicaid spending is another 560 billion.

It is estimated going full single payer is another 3 TRILLION per year.

All taxes currently collected are about 3.4 Trillion.

Single payor would at a minimum require a doubling of federal taxes. This would destroy the economy.

Combine this with the fact medical costs have risen 8% per year - Do your wages rise 8% a year? NO - not even close.

The problem is costs - feeding more cash or the same amount of cash at a broken system will not fix the system - it will encourage it to continue to grow in cost.

But most people don't bat an eye, and don't notice it in their paycheck, when the military budget goes up every single year.

I completely understand the scale. I know it'd be hard to implement. But, if we cut the military budget in half and reallocate it towards healthcare, we wouldn't have to come up with as much additional taxes.

I recognize it'd be a dramatic change. In this case, I feel change is good.

So cutting military spending in half - which by the way - will cause other costs to go up, such as oil prices and make many parts of the world unsafe would save 400 billion. I agree some cuts may be possible, but not much is wise.

400 billion is 13 percent of Three trillion. You are not understanding the scale.

So even if it was wise to cut that much you still need 2.6 Trillion. Where are you getting that from?

You raise corporate taxes significantly they move overseas. You raise it on the wealthy, they leave, hide it better, and stop spending.

Not to mention you know we are already running a trillion dollar a year deficit- so that 400 billion would not even cut that in half.

If you know you are paying double prices at a specific store - do you continue to go there, or do you find another store?

You can't do that with our medical system - you have no idea what price you are going to be charged till you get the bill. That is illegal - but it is not being enforced. That is our biggest problem.