I can't imagine not having a national health service funded by taxes.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

I don't think that argument will work with the lovers of socialism and having someone else take care of you whether it is health or finances.

Hey lets just give the majority of our paycheck to the government and they can decide how it is distributed. Whey would I need to burden myself with any of those decisions? Then the 10% (dramatization) of my paycheck that I actually get to keep with permission from my benevolent government, I can just spend recklessly. No need to save up for retirement, the government has my back. No need to save up for emergencies, the government has my back.

Hmmm, if that is the case, why even work a demanding job? I can just get a mindless 8-5 that pays crap wages, but what do I care as I don't get to keep the majority of it anyways?

Does socialism actually breed more socialism? Once a person starts down that path they have to continue and erase all logic that there is any other way, or that other ways could actually be better.

If we really wanted to reform our healthcare, take insurance out of the picture and make it complete cash basis.

I have a feeling that over the next few years, nationalized socialistic healthcare will provide great entertainment. Well, I guess it won't be funny for those who actually need to rely on it, but for the rest of us


I can see the questions from the lovers of freedom already. 'How did you possibly think this was going to work out'?

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Ahhh, so now it is free huh? No money involved? The doctors work for free? The pharm companies hand out their product for free? Utility companies say 'oh you are healthcare, here have this natural gas and electricity for free'.


I wonder what happens to other segments of our society that rely on socialism, say section 8 housing (tax payer funded housing) or food stamps. I wonder if those people become addicted to the loss of self esteem and free handouts? I wonder if there are actually generational families that have survived off of 'free' that have no intention of becoming self sufficient? That simply soak up taxpayer money and will never contribute or even try to contribute their share back to society that has made living possible?

How is that humane? We are giving them the juice to degrade their humanity and we are not even ashamed of ourselves. In fact, it seems like there are a lot of us clamoring for more more more.

a reply to: ClovenSky

Gosh you posted lots of crap, I can't be arsed debating your crap, but it was crap lol...catch you in another thread

a reply to: ClovenSky

with little drama the rough taxation for an average wage, in the UK an average yealry salary is £25000 (depending on location) with tax on that being £2835 (see page 1), so it works at about %12 and we get a few tanks with whats left, not a bad deal

a reply to: ClovenSky

...and learn to read, I clearly stated free at the point of need so quit yer whining lol.

Why the # are US folk getting their panties in a twist as well? They can do whatever the # they want, just I prefer the system the rest of the majority of the world uses,

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
Why the # are US folk getting their panties in a twist as well? They can do whatever the # they want, just I prefer the system the rest of the majority of the world uses,

Lol, might want to change your quote on the bottom then.

originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy
I wonder if there are actually generational families that have survived off of 'free' that have no intention of becoming self sufficient? That simply soak up taxpayer money and will never contribute or even try to contribute their share back to society that has made living possible?

You are right there are, but that problem could be debated as a problem with humans in general not the system, is employment at %100 where you live, i am sure there will be what I term "scroats" in every society regardless of the sytem they live under

Currently the system can even afford to carry the extra weight, dont get me wrong its not far from broken but like i said that system is paying for the deserving and also some that are not deserving, so i focus on the positive but am not blind to the negative, do you focus on the negative while being blind to the positive, only you can answer that

a reply to: Muninn
Why? My comment stands, it would be boring if we all agreed with each other.
Stop looking for lame off topic # to disagree with.

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: Muninn
Why? My comment stands, it would be boring if we all agreed with each other.
Stop looking for lame off topic # to disagree with.

So why complain when Amercans disagree with you?

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Because Europe's bad ideas spread like chlamydia among US liberals and tend to find their way here eventually, thus Obamacare. If the US isolated itself against this crap I wouldn't give a rat's hairy ass if the UK taxed citizens at 100% and provided everything in your lives up to and including Theresa May tucking you each in at night with a kiss to the forehead. Sadly, half the US is too goddamned dumb to isolate and your crap flows down our necks, eventually.

Let me ask you this, why does the US not having universal care bother you so? You don't live here, so what's it to you?

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Because Europe's bad ideas spread like chlamydia among US liberals and tend to find their way here eventually, thus Obamacare. If the US isolated itself against this crap I wouldn't give a rat's hairy ass if the UK taxed citizens at 100% and provided everything in your lives up to and including Theresa May tucking you each in at night with a kiss to the forehead. Sadly, half the US is too goddamned dumb to isolate and your crap flows down our necks, eventually.

Let me ask you this, why does the US not having universal care bother you so? You don't live here, so what's it to you?

originally posted by: Muninn

So why complain when Amercans disagree with you?

Actually I have to say ...... the only people I come across on ATS who

constantly complain about health care are the Americans!!


I'd like to add something about the NHS that no one has pointed out

That for 12% of income (fairly nominal imo) on what people pay for

credit and entertainment in their lifetime it is care from pre natal

(sometimes actually to create the individual) to helping when they

fall on hard times to a pension for how ever many years you live in

retirement.


Not bad for 12%

What we should be doing is figuring a way to lower prices rather than figure out a way on who is going to pay for it.
Only America, do you have billions spent by Lobbyists to protect their cash cow.

People that complain about their money going to support others with their dollars should be just as outraged about their money going to enrich others that hate capitalism.

www.opensecrets.org...


Industry Total
Pharmaceuticals/Health Products $4,001,631,064
Insurance $2,751,743,572
Electric Utilities $2,384,646,037
Electronics Mfg & Equip $2,265,674,175
Business Associations $2,254,317,913
Oil & Gas $2,130,959,766
Misc Manufacturing & Distributing $1,711,453,232
Education $1,651,855,249
Hospitals/Nursing Homes $1,628,529,677
Securities & Investment $1,571,585,579
Real Estate $1,560,196,283
Telecom Services $1,559,003,678
Health Professionals $1,473,898,726
Civil Servants/Public Officials $1,455,196,910
Air Transport $1,415,833,437
Health Services/HMOs $1,116,511,600
Defense Aerospace $1,114,819,742
Automotive $1,109,408,742
Misc Issues $1,069,275,817
TV/Movies/Music $1,049,917,835


Also they limit the supply of doctors going in to keep prices high.
Everything is rigged folks and rather than blame the lobbyists, we point the finger at the ones that do not purchase politicians.

The way to control physician fees is to increase the supply of physicians, but this would require forcing the AMA -- arguably the world's most powerful labor union -- to operate under free market principles, including easing of unnecessary costs and other barriers in the training of new practitioners.

There are a lot of ways we could lower costs and kill their cash cow.
Get rid of employer funded insurance. - This benefits the finance sector and big business by forcing people to work to get that insurance when they may have enough to retire.
Ban Corporate and Banking Lobbyists.
Open up the doors for Doctors.

Everything is being done in this country to enrich the already rich and punish everyone else.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
It wasn't perfect before, but nothing ever is and at least it was affordable to the majority... unlike this horsecrap socialist inspired hell we now have.

I think if socialism entered into the equation, you wouldn't still have Big Health robbing y'all the way they are.

a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

Socialism is anathema to freedom and liberty, that should not be on the table.

Explain something to me, why should those members of society who have taken full personal responsibility for themselves also be demanded to take responsibility for those who reject responsibility for themselves? Name me one single ecosystem in the history of the world where restricting the strong to support the weak has lead to a more sustainable, stronger collective of organisms. You can't because man is the only animal that allows himself to be handcuffed against nature like that.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck

Socialism is anathema to freedom and liberty, that should not be on the table.

Explain something to me, why should those members of society who have taken full personal responsibility for themselves also be demanded to take responsibility for those who reject responsibility for themselves? Name me one single ecosystem in the history of the world where restricting the strong to support the weak has lead to a more sustainable, stronger collective of organisms. You can't because man is the only animal that allows himself to be handcuffed against nature like that.

How is it freedom and liberty when we have to pay for Insurance and Pharma lobbyists infesting DC artificially keeping prices high?

It looks like it is Freedom and Liberty for them to purchase politicians and enslavement for everyone else.

From another members thread IN PRAISE OF the UK's NHS.


www.abovetopsecret.com...

Australia has a similar system too that we call medicare. I find it hard to fathom why a nation wouldn't want it either. It levels the playing field when it comes to health. Under these schemes, no matter how poor you are, you can access world class healthcare and will not be burdened with paying back medical bills for the rest of your life. In Australia, if you are a pensioner, on disability or unemployed, it's even cheaper, and medications are also heavily subsidised. For pensioners, those most likely to need healthcare, medications are subsidised to the point that they cost only a fraction of their market value. Without that, they would never be able to afford these drugs/treatments.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

I can't speak for Blaine, but it was massively less costly and the services more beneficial for me before Obama and his half asked attempt at socialized medicine entered the picture.

Before Obama Care maybe $600 a month, $500 deductible. Since its gone up a lot each year. What I mentioned would be next year. Every birthday drives it up.

Anything under say $25,000 it's likely cheaper to negotiate with the hospital and doctors. The hospital gave me 90% off last time and the MD's 50% off. Not all but most will. I think my total bill for my woes of the last few years has totaled maybe $150,000, but I got it down to more like $50,000 total by simply talking to them.

There has got to be a better way. I can't for the life of me so how Medicare for all, for life, can't be far cheaper if implemented right and contracted out to the private sector.

One thing that concerns the systems in other countries, is we need to stop bearing the brunt of research costs and overpaying to supplement them paying far less. It needs to be an even playing field with some kind of universal truth in pricing controls. If a pill costs a US dollar in the UK, it needs to cost the same here or Canada or anywhere. We are getting the shaft in that regard.