Is voting for Republicans or Democrats worthless?

So I am reading a lot of comments today after the election about how anyone who voted for Republicans or Democrats yesterday merely voted to back the establishment and will change nothing.

I wanted to make a thread to address my opinions on this, and get other peoples.

Suffice it to say, I do not think it is worthless to vote for any democrat or republican.

To begin with, if you are one of the people who said this that I disagree with, dont be upset. First, who cares what I think? I also think being an overweight guy with a beard makes me cool, so what do I know.

In addition, I agree with much of what these people are saying, just have slight disagreements about the conclusions of that. And wouldnty it be boring if we all agreed about everything?

Lastly, I think its great on ats that we can ask a question like the OP instead of the usual "I voting third party throwing away your vote?"

The first problem I have with this mentality is that sometimes it comes off a little smarmy and arrogant. There is nothing like someone who didnt vote acting superior to those that did, calling them dumb and mocking them. Ok yeah, many of us know most politicians suck, you not particpating doesnt make you a smarter ofr better person to those that did.

Now look, I certainly am arrogant myself, and am guilty of being condescending quite often. So I am not saying I am above this, or the people doing this are bad people. I am just saying that not voting for any republican or democrat (or not voting at all) doesnt mean you are somehow smarter to those that did.

Next, although I agree that at the powerful establishment level in national politics, the republicans and dems are basically the same, that is not true at the more local levels. For example, is the person in my town I voted for scholl board who happens to be democrat an establishment person? Of course not.

Once we can concede this is the case, I dont think it ios a far leap to show that even in national politics, having an r or d next to your name does not automatically make you establishment.

Was ron paul establishment? How about tulsi gabbard? What about trump or bernie? Maybe you think some of these people were, but I think there is a case to be made that the perhpas were not, and were preferable to their more establishment opponents.

On trump specifically, although I think the jury is still out on just how anti establishment he will be, it is clear to me that the establishment at least didnt want him.

Hence the intel communities disdain of him, the msm hating him, many people in his own party that were establishment hating him, all cultural institutions overwhelmingly hating him (like celebs, academia, etc.)

Was voting for him over the ultimate establishment candidate hillary really worthless? I dont think so. For one, although perhaps only delaying the inevtiable, it seemed to slow down the rush to war with russia or its allies.

Now maybe you look at some of trumps specific policies and say they are pro establishment. I agree some seem to be.

But that is more constructive to me than saying merely being a republican means he is, and saying all of the establishment railing against him was a clever ruse by the establishment.

That to me is far too simplistic, and reminiscent of post modern garbage like intersectionality, that just yells "Racism" as the answer to everything.

My question is to people who feel that way, what is the alternative?

If you say third party, how does that solve the criticism of just saying "No the establishments dislike of these third parties is just another even more clever ruse, so voting for them is a waste of time as well"

SO then what are we left with? Never voting for anyone? That seems far more worthless to me.

Aagin, I agree that the system needs to change. My strategy for that is 1. voting for candidates that at least seem to be disliked by the establishment. 2. informing people and having discussions about the two parties largely being the same at the top levels. 3. running for office myself.

This solution is woefully inadequate, but its the best I can do now. I am open to suggestions.

But I dont think saying voting for any republican or democratic is worthless is helping matters either.

a reply to: Grambler


"Is voting for Republicans or Democrats worthless?"


Yes.

But it's also amusing.

Look, we're peons. Nothing short of a civil war, zombies, EMP, meteors, plague will ever change the paradigm.

And frankly, most people don't want the change necessary to eliminate the R vs D concept.

Most people watch 30 minutes of news on NBC, CBS, ABC. If they watch it at all.

They don't care as long as their phones work, their bellies are full and gas is in the car.

100%

Why would we keep voting for the same 2 groups (mafias) that have corrupt and sold our nation out to global interest?

Education system - broken
Economy - broken
Political spectrum - corrupted and ruined
Everything is breaking down and the people steering the ship are both Democrats and Republicans working together behind the scenes to do so.

Trump is the best thing to ever happen to both the Democrats and Republicans. Really high voter turnout and look at what they did. Vote the same people right back into office.

a reply to: DBCowboy

Look, we're peons. Nothing short of a civil war, zombies, EMP, meteors, plague will ever change the paradigm.

They don't care as long as their phones work, their bellies are full and gas is in the car.

Our nation is spoiled frogs in a pot of water getting warmer and warmer.

I get it, if you have a full time job, kids, and other things going on, weeding through BS to get accurate representation of current events is a lot.

One day though, people will be forced into the role, and hopefully history repeats itself so we prevail.

Then 20 years down the road when we have true prosperity, something more toxic than Fortnite will come out and we can repeat the process.

originally posted by: toysforadults
100%

Why would we keep voting for the same 2 groups (mafias) that have corrupt and sold our nation out to global interest?

Education system - broken
Economy - broken
Political spectrum - corrupted and ruined
Everything is breaking down and the people steering the ship are both Democrats and Republicans working together behind the scenes to do so.

Trump is the best thing to ever happen to both the Democrats and Republicans. Really high voter turnout and look at what they did. Vote the same people right back into office.

So what the alternative?

Dont vote?

I had only choices of demos and republicans in all races I could vote for other than one.

Would me and many others staying home helped change anything?

Again, although I agree that the two parties are the same at the establ;ishment level, the idea that we cant vite for any r or d seems over simplistic and worthless.

It has become worthless because for every legal voter there's another cheating scamming and invalidating their vote.

a reply to: Grambler

Is voting for Republicans or Democrats worthless?

Yes

the outcome has been the same with both parties in full control.

The same issues still exist today that have existed for the last 50 or years or so despite both Republicans and Democrats having full control to fix and change things. In fact the issues under both parties have only gotten worst for the consumers & tax payers and better for the lobbyist.

Major Study Finds The US Is An Oligarchy


The midterm election shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Typically the power is split between the two parties . the reason for splitting the power is so there is no accountability for either party or lobbyist.

Now we get to continue playing the same game on the hamster wheel.

Republicans will say look we want to lower and reform taxes, fix obamacare, shrink gov't , budget , tighten immigration, and close the rampant misuse of tax payers money but we cant because the democrats are obstructing us.

the democrats will say look we want to eradicate the white male, give everyone free healthcare,free education, $50 dollars an hour minimum wage, open immigration for everyone, but we can't because the republicans are obstructing us.

While the Democrats and Republicans play the blame game the Lobbyist who sponsor both are making qodzillian dollars of the healthcare mess and are lucky enough to always be in the right spot to get the wasteful gov't spending.

As gov't increases under both party the lobbyist get more power over the people. They get to spy on their consumers to better manipulate them and target them. They get to pass bigger Oligarch friendly regulations. they get to create welfare programs under the guise of helping the poor but in reality its about taking money from the middle class to give to a group of people that don't have money in order to buy their products such as iphones, etc.



So yeah more of the same regardless who is in charge.

a reply to: [post=23934879]Gramconstituooalist
I vote for the libertarian candidates and there were 2 green party candidates on the ballot in my state.

NY had Larry Sharpe.

The solution is to vote for the only alternatives until the parties are all reduced in power and size

Republicans and Dems are really just 2 semi right wong globalist parties protecting their own interest

At least the Green party has politicians running on real prpgressive agenda and the libertarians are running on a true constitution Liberal agenda

a reply to: Grambler

Worthless? No.
I keep telling people: "Unless you voted, stop complaining!"

I agree with you about changing the system, but I say with more force and less money. It seems that even in the larger cities, money holds more power and clout than the average person wanting to run. All these elections prove to me is that "status quo" remains a large influencer.

You know how many people I talked to that didn't research their candidates (both sides) and just voted straight ticket? An alarming amount. That in itself frightens me and it doesn't even include the 70% of people that didn't care enough to even vote! Oh but they will bitch and moan about their tax dollars or rights!

Change is inevitable especially in this modern day where information is so easily accessed. Unfortunately, people are still too consumed with the rat race, fakebook, instawhores or whatever other programming developed by Edward Bernays that is still being used today.

Good luck if you run!

Ok so I am getting a lot of responses saying that the two parties are the same, and so voting for either is worthless.

Again, I am not seeing much on the way of solutions.

Let me distill it like this.

Was voting for ron paul worthless because he was a republican, and therefore an establishment shill?

a reply to: Grambler

Ron Paul was a token renegade.

He was chosen to give the impression that there are "outsiders" in DC.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Grambler

Ron Paul was a token renegade.

He was chosen to give the impression that there are "outsiders" in DC.

I disagree.

Chosen by who?

I think he was an outsider who realized he had a far better chance of meaningful change by running as a republican than losing as an independent.

But according to the logic I see in this thread, he should have been rejected for being a republican, thus allowing the establishment candidates to maintain sole control over the two parties and our system.

a reply to: Grambler

It's pointless to vote strait party. You have to think and research about how they have been voting while in office mainly. The new people running you can assume are partly full of crap and wont know until they are in office, but 8f the incomabant is already useless, there is no need to vote again for useless people because they represent a party.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Grambler

It's pointless to vote strait party. You have to think and research about how they have been voting while in office mainly. The new people running you can assume are partly full of crap and wonky know until they are in office, but 8f the incomabant is already useless, there is no need to vote again for useless people because they represent a party.

I agree, I have never voted straight party, and never will.

But that doesnt mean that it is worthless to vote for anyone who is a member of those two parties.

Again, my election had 5 races (i think) only one had an independent.

I dont think that refusing to vote in those 4 races with only republicans or democrats would have helped solve anything, and seems more worthless than coming up with a reason to pick one over the other.

a reply to: Grambler

I agree. In the cases where I have to choose the lesser of two evils I usually choose the non incombant.

My reasoning is it will take a while to learn how to milk the networks and systems of government, there is 0 percent chance of a politicians voting record changing if there is a negative pattern already observable, and perhaps the party that was ousted has to rethink their approach.

Of coarse I am incredibly skeptical of government as you know. So I may be extreme in approach.

a reply to: luthier

See you have a plan at least for how to vote to make things a little better.

I dont always agree with voting all incumbents out, but in general its a good strategy for trying to curb the establishment.

I do not think your vote for the non incumbent, if they be republican or democrat, would be worthless.

However, I am seeing a lot of people saying any vote for any republican or democrat is in fact worthless, and that is what I am disagreeing with.

My opinion may not mean much because I'm Canadian and I don't vote, but if it is indeed pointless and everything is just for show (there's nothing you can do to change the outcome), then what is there to even lose in voting for something that has a slim chance of being different?

That's what I don't understand, people just assuming the worst without even giving it a shot.

Again, what is there to lose?

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: luthier

See you have a plan at least for how to vote to make things a little better.

I dont always agree with voting all incumbents out, but in general its a good strategy for trying to curb the establishment.

I do not think your vote for the non incumbent, if they be republican or democrat, would be worthless.

However, I am seeing a lot of people saying any vote for any republican or democrat is in fact worthless, and that is what I am disagreeing with.

And I would agree with you. I dont always vote incombants out, especially becuae I live in a tiny rural community, so our state reps actually do work at the state level.

However, it's more often than not I am incredibly disappointed in my states federal representation. If that is the case, I vote against them without regard to party.


Voting for a party candidate is not useless or useful until the effects of the politician are known. It's easy to be fooled when nobody is telling the truth.

Not voting is only useful to the parties. They would love if only the zealots voted which has been the unfortunate case of our political with less than half the voters voting.

So for people who think not voting does something positive, it does not, it allows even more control to political extremism.

originally posted by: knowledgehunter0986
My opinion may not mean much because I'm Canadian and I don't vote, but if it is indeed pointless and everything is just for show (there's nothing you can do to change the outcome), then what is there to even lose in voting for something that has a slim chance of being different?

That's what I don't understand, people just assuming the worst without even giving it a shot.

Again, what is there to lose?

Great point.

That is why I was cheering for a bernie vs trump election.

That is why i voted for trump.

Yet that seems to be derided by some people as worthless.

So to that I ask what is the alternative?

a reply to: toysforadults

2 groups (mafias) is on the right track...
but if you noticed when trump took office that most republican politicians had no idea what to do or who to back up?
that means that we have a new mafia....