Pope John Paul II Still Clinging to Life

I probably should not have even read this thread. I'm appalled at the "free speech" being spewed.

I'm a recovering Catholic and am now a Methodist. I have just read that the pope may never be able to speak again. Link: www.nytimes.com...

Because the cut is made below the voice box, medical specialists say, people with tracheotomies have difficulty speaking.

It matters not if you are Catholic, respect the Holy Father, or respect the things he has done. What matters is that he is a human being. To say things like "I wish he'd just die", or "I don't care if he lives or dies" is just not right.

Walk a few miles in the Popes shoes. How would you feel, with the same ailments and suffering, if people wished you would just die? Do you all have relatives with Parkinsons or other life-threatening ailments, and wishing the same thing?

I better not say anything more, or I'll get a warning. I'm just hoping that you all will think about what I'm saying and how it sounds.

Personally I can care less weather he lives or dies.

Kinda cold arent ya!?

[edit on 2/24/2005 by LadyV]

I pretty much think along the same lines Why should I care if the pope dies or lives? To me the Pope is just some old man who spurts his "morals" to the rest of us.
Would You care if a complte stranger died ?

[edit on 25-2-2005 by xpert11]

[edit on 25-2-2005 by xpert11]

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by Croat56

What exactly is wrong with the Catholic Church

How exactly is it not telling the truth

It does not teach salvation through Christ alone. Biblically to receive Christ is to realize that you have sinned against God and need a Savior. Christ is that Savior and when you accept(verbally or silently in your head) His sacrifice as payment for one's sins the Holy Spirit enters you(literally) and brings your dead spirit back to life. You are then a new person and the Holy Spirit renews your way of thinking and acting over the course of your life. He changes you, weeds out your faults and conforms you to the image of Christ.

To receive Christ in the catholic church means to take the eucharist. This bread has somehow the priest has magically changed into the actual body of Christ. When you ingest this you have received Christ. That's not Biblical. And the more you take the eucharist the less time you spend in purgatory( one way of spending less time in purgatory). So that's why there is a daily mass to take the eucharist more. I will repeat it again that is not Biblical. That bread did not change into the body of Christ. Ingesting that bread will not make you justified nor sanctified. Only the realization that you have offended a holy God(we cannot truly know how holy God is until we see Him face to face) and there's nothing you can do to change that. But God in mercy sent Christ to be your replacement in death(then He rose again). That's what changes you, when your heart and mind and view toward sin is changed and you come to the place where you no longer want to sin. You want to trade in your old life for new. Until you realize that sin is wrong you will not change and the only way to be changed from the inside out is by God Himself living in you.
That is the truth that is not expressed by the catholic church.

You do realize the eucharist is to symbolize the last supper. During the last supper Jesus took bread and said this is my body and passed it around to his disciples. He then took wine and said this is my blood. Its not his actual body. Its a symbol of it. We dont believe we will spend less time in purgatory if you eat it. The only way to get out of purgatory is if your friends and family that are still alive pray enough for you to get into heaven. Do you think we go to mass every day? lol we only go once a week. Lets see only accepting Christ gets you into heaven huh? Well what if someone accepts Christ but then goes out and murders someone? He would then go to hell.

Originally posted by xpert11

Personally I can care less weather he lives or dies.

Kinda cold arent ya!?

[edit on 2/24/2005 by LadyV]

I pretty much think along the same lines Why should I care if the pope dies or lives? To me the Pope is just some old man who spurts his "morals" to the rest of us.
Would You care if a complte stranger died ?

[edit on 25-2-2005 by xpert11]

[edit on 25-2-2005 by xpert11]

He's not exactly a complete stranger if you know about him is he?

His morals are great

Im not going to debate the pope morals here. Just because I have know of the pope dosnt mean I know the guy. I know that people that live in Tokoy but dosnt mean I know them personaly.

Originally posted by xpert11
Im not going to debate the pope morals here. Just because I have know of the pope dosnt mean I know the guy. I know that people that live in Tokoy but dosnt mean I know them personaly.

I think you misunderstood here. Of course you know that ppl live in Tokyo. You dont know any1 there but you know who the Pope is. So he is not a complete stranger

I think you misunderstood here. Of course you know that ppl live in Tokyo. You dont know any1 there but you know who the Pope is. So he is not a complete stranger

Your missing the point I dont know the pope personaly and I dont chat to the pope online so he is a complte stranger. I know of Hollywood movie stars but there still complete strangers.

Originally posted by xpert11

I think you misunderstood here. Of course you know that ppl live in Tokyo. You dont know any1 there but you know who the Pope is. So he is not a complete stranger

Your missing the point I dont know the pope personaly and I dont chat to the pope online so he is a complte stranger. I know of Hollywood movie stars but there still complete strangers.

But you do know about him so you should feel some compassion.

Originally posted by sosuemetoo

Because the cut is made below the voice box, medical specialists say, people with tracheotomies have difficulty speaking.

i can tell you how that is having a trach tube myself, theres special device called a passing mirror valve that lets you talk but the way it works, being in his condition he cant use it, one reason i cant use it myself.

See the problem I am having in communicating here is that people are going straight for some kind of jab against the pope personally. There was noone of that in my original post, I'll admit I was harsh as to the way I described his ailments, but as far as the man himself, I never discredited him orthe great work he has done... in the past.

My question was again, would it be wrong to remove him from the papacy? Perhaps he could try to live out the rest of his life a little more comfortably, with out the huge work load that I am sure a Pope does have. I don't know where everyone is getting the personal attack thing from, yes the Pope was a great man, he has done some great things during his life, but wouldn't it be ok for a HUGE organization like the Catholic church to want to have a man with all of his faculties as their head? Can anyone dispute this? I mean the Pope right now is suffering, everyone is in agreement about that, whether you care or not is besides the point.

I also wanted to get into a discussion about the future of the Catholic church adn whether their days are numbered. I found it interesting that someone figures it at another century and they will be gone. I would not doubt it. That was the kind of discussion I was looking for, I am not sure where all this anger is coming from.

But why should I feel compassion?
The Pope hasnt done anything for anybody I know. Would somebody explain the great things the pope has done?

Originally posted by xpert11
But why should I feel compassion?
The Pope hasnt done anything for anybody I know. Would somebody explain the great things the pope has done?

Well for me and my people he has done alot of great things. He came all the way to America and begged the U.S. to recognize Croatia as they were the last country to, and helped stop the genocide

Edit: You should feel compassion for every human being

[edit on 25/2/05 by Croat56]

Croat56 fill me in because you arent making much sense.
The Vatican, and with it the Catholic Church, after the disappearance of the Catholic State of Croatia, never claimed any responsibility, not even a partial one, for the atrocities committed there. Indeed, when accused, they disclaimed any connection with the whole Croatian "experiment."

When asked to express their abhorrence for the deeds committed by the Ustashis of Catholic Croatia, they both kept their silence. Silence means approval. That is why, since the downfall of Independent Croatia, the Catholic Church has constantly helped the scattered remnants of the Ustashi at home and abroad. Not only during the pontificate of Pius XII, but equally during those of "good Pope John XXIII" and Pope Paul VI.
source

I have compassion for people I know otherwise you dont have any emotional involvement.

Originally posted by jawapunk

My question was again, would it be wrong to remove him from the papacy? Perhaps he could try to live out the rest of his life a little more comfortably, with out the huge work load that I am sure a Pope does have. Can anyone dispute this? I mean the Pope right now is suffering, everyone is in agreement about that, whether you care or not is besides the point.

God inspired men to make John Paul II the leader of the Catholic Church. When God wants Pope John Paul II to leave his job he will take him home.
The Pope is a very holy man and we cannot know how necessary his prayers are for our world.

I also wanted to get into a discussion about the future of the Catholic church adn whether their days are numbered. I found it interesting that someone figures it at another century and they will be gone. I would not doubt it. That was the kind of discussion I was looking for, I am not sure where all this anger is coming from.

I am a Roman Catholic Christian and I don't believe the days of the Catholic Church are numbered. Perhaps you mean the days of our world are numbered? The Catholic Church will be here until the end of the world.

Speaking as a person of the same religion as the Pope, I can assure you that I have acknowledged and received Jesus as my personal savior, as the Pope has.

And Yes, we believe (John: 6, 51-58) that the Eucharist, when properly consecrated by a validly ordained priest, is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus. But, you cannot even receive the Eucharist until you have the lessons and knowledge that Jesus is our Saviour.

Originally posted by xpert11
Croat56 fill me in because you arent making much sense.
The Vatican, and with it the Catholic Church, after the disappearance of the Catholic State of Croatia, never claimed any responsibility, not even a partial one, for the atrocities committed there. Indeed, when accused, they disclaimed any connection with the whole Croatian "experiment."

When asked to express their abhorrence for the deeds committed by the Ustashis of Catholic Croatia, they both kept their silence. Silence means approval. That is why, since the downfall of Independent Croatia, the Catholic Church has constantly helped the scattered remnants of the Ustashi at home and abroad. Not only during the pontificate of Pius XII, but equally during those of "good Pope John XXIII" and Pope Paul VI.
source

I have compassion for people I know otherwise you dont have any emotional involvement.

Atrocities huh. Let me explain what happened evan though this is very off topic. First Ill tell you that you shouldnt believe any site you see about us since alot of them were created by serbs to spread ignorance. Ive seen alot of sights that put pictures of dead Croatians and said they were serbs. Okay now back then Germany invaded what was then Yugoslavia. We wanted to be our own country, the nazis promised us that. Half of us supported him and half of us supported the alies. Same with the serbs. Infact Belgrade was the only city to declare themselves Jew free. Croatian fought against Croatian, same with serbs. The ustasi did give up jews to hitler. I wont deny that. I dont think any1 is trying to "scatter the ustasa". The ustasa was started in the 1800's and is derived from a hungarian word meaning uprising. Some of them after world war 2 escaped to South America. Now the president of Argentina is half croatian. The croatians were the only ones though to set up an anti-fascist regime in all of yugoslavia. Almost an equal amount of people died on both sides during ww2. Infact after the war thousands of Croatians were sent to Bleighburg and excecuted for no reason. No one ever talks about that though.

interesting thing I just heard they are in a rush to try and get a name bestowed on the pope like john paul the great or something, why the rush is he worse that the vatican is making out or is he okay conflicting stories vs actions what up with that?

croat56 I didnt meant to imply that croatians were monsters
I was trying to figuer out were the Catholic church was in that mess.

[edit on 25-2-2005 by xpert11]

wwwwoooooopppppssss ill come back later hey croat see you later after this gets done.....

Originally posted by Croat56
You do realize the eucharist is to symbolize the last supper. During the last supper Jesus took bread and said this is my body and passed it around to his disciples. He then took wine and said this is my blood. Its not his actual body. The only way to get out of purgatory is if your friends and family that are still alive pray enough for you to get into heaven. Do you think we go to mass every day? lol we only go once a week. Lets see only accepting Christ gets you into heaven huh? Well what if someone accepts Christ but then goes out and murders someone? He would then go to hell.

You need to check into what is being done. I have heard it from actual mouths of catholics that the priest literally changes it into the body of Christ And have also researched myself. Yes what Christ meant as symbolism for His broken body and His blood shed for remission of sins has been perverted by the catholic church. Your trying to tell me in larger cities there isn't a daily mass at catholic churches, there is. Only acceptance of Christ for salvation is how one enters eternity with God. Telling people you can be prayed out of "purgatory"(there is no such place) is another offense to what Christ has done and accomplished. If someone accepts Christ and goes out and murders, that person needs to question if he really did accept Christ.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by Croat56
You do realize the eucharist is to symbolize the last supper. During the last supper Jesus took bread and said this is my body and passed it around to his disciples. He then took wine and said this is my blood. Its not his actual body. The only way to get out of purgatory is if your friends and family that are still alive pray enough for you to get into heaven. Do you think we go to mass every day? lol we only go once a week. Lets see only accepting Christ gets you into heaven huh? Well what if someone accepts Christ but then goes out and murders someone? He would then go to hell.

You need to check into what is being done. I have heard it from actual mouths of catholics that the priest literally changes it into the body of Christ And have also researched myself. Yes what Christ meant as symbolism for His broken body and His blood shed for remission of sins has been perverted by the catholic church. Your trying to tell me in larger cities there isn't a daily mass at catholic churches, there is. Only acceptance of Christ for salvation is how one enters eternity with God. Telling people you can be prayed out of "purgatory"(there is no such place) is another offense to what Christ has done and accomplished. If someone accepts Christ and goes out and murders, that person needs to question if he really did accept Christ.

I researched the meaning of the Eucharist for years and I mean years. When I was Protestant I heard that Catholics where cannibals for wanting to “eat Jesus”. Yes this is preached in some of the more “way out there” churches. So here is what I found, ready. The Eucharist was practiced by the first Christians right after Christ. The first Christians where Jewish and where considered a Jewish sect. They would commit to the day of the Sabbath and afterwards meet in each others homes to discuss Jesus and celebrate the breaking of the bread. Don’t believe me? Read a history book. Now after Paul of Tarsus Christians where no longer bound to the Jewish traditions and “mass” was starting to be celebrated in churches, the first church starting in Jerusalem. Mass is almost like Jewish services without a gospel reading and Eucharist of course. Symbolism is common in the Catholic Church, but some newer churches have done away with some of it. The reason for all the symbolism is that the Catholic Church is about 2000 years old. Not everyone through history could read or write so symbolism comes into play.


The word purgatory is not in the bible but there are several scriptures that relate to it. Also Catholics do not go to mass everyday only on Sundays and Holy days. The question about “being saved” is that can you be forgiven for all of the sins you committed and also after you are saved what if you sin again.