It seems that Darwinism becoming outdated and obsolete.

a reply to: Noinden

I think phage made a comment and you either took it out of context or deliberately twisted the words to suite your own
needs... The need you have to always make yourself believe you are right is absurd...

It’s almost as bad as your need to tell yourself in every thread that you are a brilliant chemist...

Show your work if you are all you say...

If you are so smart why can’t you realize what tour really said?

You know how he’s not an expert in arguing creationism over evolution...

His findings which only point to design really bothers you that much?
Or is it that you can’t with your field of expertise disprove his opinion?
Lastly has google search failed to provide you with even a flimsy rebuttal?

a reply to: 5StarOracle

Again with you and your ilk attributing things to me, that I've never said. But tell you what you interpret what Tour said all you like. I've said none of the things you attribute to me. But hey, the chance to go Ad hom is strong with you it appears.

Oh and I am not going to expose who I am on here thanks. I know one of your camp is an academic (a geologist) but pretending to be something else, all to appear as if a geneticist is denouncing evolution.

a reply to: Noinden

You must really be ashamed of yourself huh?
Thanks for that...
It helps answer some of my previous questions...
I understand your issue a little better now...

I’m not making anything up and I also addressed what has been said in this thread...

originally posted by: GreenGunther
After reading through 8 pages of this 'back and forth' there is only one conclusion to reach.. Religion indoctrinates.

I'll never touch the stuff

I so agree
But science educates, care to educate us

Or is this an indoctrinating science, you know a faith based religious, no evidence science religion

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: Raggedyman

Sigh, you try and keep up with it. There are bits we are evolving away from needing neighbour.

I asked for scientific evidence

I understand the sigh is just rhetoric for the fact you have no evidence

Run along, i hear the sheep bleating


Can you show me Vestigial organs, please
You say we dont need them, how do you know that, might a future generation need them.
What science do you have to support that Wisdom Teeth are no longer needed, McDonald's restaurants?

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
The sad part is, this wasn't intended as an attack on atheism. I mentioned that at the beginning and the end. I simply want science to move forward from these antiquated fallacies without theism vs atheism being an issue. There is clearly a designer. Whether or not that designer is sentient will always be the philosophical question. There is no such thing as chaos or random, but only simplicity vs degree of complexity. There is no such thing as impossible, only degree of probability.

No, there isn't "clearly a designer".

As you said yourself, the process may just be (currently) immeasurably complex.

To me "a designer" tinkering with natural processes, would quite obviously invalidate the very laws and rules that the "designer" supposedly set in motion at the start of the perceivable universe.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: cooperton

A Boeing jet is not a biological machine. Nor is a computer of any model. Nor is a garage door opener.

Biological machines are even more complex than human-made machines because they can heal themselves and reproduce, yet it is popular belief that biological machines self-assembled. That is the fundamental idea behind evolution and abiogenesis.

well, science does make some fairly compelling arguments.

and history has some input as well.

fascism noun
fas·cism | ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-
Definition of fascism
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

but more than that, the illustrious list of debates, overflowing with articles and videos and credentialed experts who have spent over a century going through every meticulous step in the scientific method to bring us reliable data, has gone a long way toward convincing us of evolution. the link should be right below my post.

so tell me, since humans could not possibly be descended from billions of years of organic self assembly, who made this intelligent designer you keep mentioning? surely such a creature does not just happen. and that whole "he is eternal" business is even worse than you trying to make evolution look bad. you think our evidence is pitiful? hehe

Am I missing the scientific evidence in your reply
Lots of talk, lots of insinuation but no evidence

Big wow, nothing as usual

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: 5StarOracle

Again with you and your ilk attributing things to me, that I've never said. But tell you what you interpret what Tour said all you like. I've said none of the things you attribute to me. But hey, the chance to go Ad hom is strong with you it appears.

Oh and I am not going to expose who I am on here thanks. I know one of your camp is an academic (a geologist) but pretending to be something else, all to appear as if a geneticist is denouncing evolution.

Homeschooling didn't work for you Noindie, thats a pity
Cling to your feeble title, naught more than a children's school teacher in effect

Capable only of telling others what to believe as long as they cant question you
Not that dissimilar to a very bad christian minister preaching their version of faith

a reply to: 5StarOracle

Nice try. I understsand how kooks and kranks work online. I previously have had them contact me privately or at work, thus I don't make it easy. Its called being smart, not ashamed. I don't see you advertising who you are.

I also am not making anything up neighbour.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Home Schooling? Where would you get that idea neighbour? I went to a real school, and the oldest western University in the Southern Hemisphere.

You creationists enjoy your ad hom attacks.

Oh and for the record several posters here have talked with me, and know what my qualifications are. You and your cabal, however, don't get trust.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: Raggedyman

Home Schooling? Where would you get that idea neighbour? I went to a real school, and the oldest western University in the Southern Hemisphere.

You creationists enjoy your ad hom attacks.

Oh and for the record several posters here have talked with me, and know what my qualifications are. You and your cabal, however, don't get trust.

Why do you ignore this all the time
Can you show me Vestigial organs, please
You say we dont need them, how do you know that, might a future generation need them.
What science do you have to support that Wisdom Teeth are no longer needed, McDonald's restaurants?

Ad hom attacks?
Answer the question and prove I am wrong...

a reply to: Noinden

Nobody here wants to call you... always with the make believe crap...
Anything to avoid any semblance of credence of your credentials...
I mean if I saw you blather on about your education once or twice I’d believe you...

I have stated my full name date of birth country city occupation etc several times on this site...
Starting at the age of 13...

I guess I just don’t believe you stranger...

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: GreenGunther
After reading through 8 pages of this 'back and forth' there is only one conclusion to reach.. Religion indoctrinates.

I'll never touch the stuff

I so agree
But science educates, care to educate us

Or is this an indoctrinating science, you know a faith based religious, no evidence science religion

I’m happy to admit I don’t have all the answers and probably never will, atleast not in my lifetime.
But skyfairies are not for me.

Religion has done enough damage to the human consciousness.

originally posted by: GreenGunther

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: GreenGunther
After reading through 8 pages of this 'back and forth' there is only one conclusion to reach.. Religion indoctrinates.

I'll never touch the stuff

I so agree
But science educates, care to educate us

Or is this an indoctrinating science, you know a faith based religious, no evidence science religion

I’m happy to admit I don’t have all the answers and probably never will, atleast not in my lifetime.
But skyfairies are not for me.

Religion has done enough damage to the human consciousness.

Yeah and so has the religion of science, ala Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot
I am embarrassed for people like you and your arguments against religion when you can't tell the difference between the two
Evolution is a scientific religion, you are,as bad as me and you arnt smart enough to see it

I can see the evils of religion, I am alive to them
You are oblivious to yours

a reply to: Raggedyman

If creationists want any respect they need to do what was done with evolution. Gather large amounts of data and evidence.

Until then, you're arguing religion vs science. It's pointless. Evolution is science's best explanation so far. It should be questioned, but to pretend some religious idea can even compete in a scientific debate is nonsense.

Also, google will give better responses to the science and evidence behind evolution. It's a large topic, not sure why you expect people to present pages of science articles and studies..

a reply to: Raggedyman

Am I missing the scientific evidence in your reply
Lots of talk, lots of insinuation but no evidence

Big wow, nothing as usual

thats funny, i was just thinking the same about you. please have a look at the list of debates i have assembled in the before mentioned link, directly below. you will find them quite prophetic. or perhaps this forum is simply predictable. the internet is full of resources for those with the courage to challenge their ignorance. unfortunately the courage is something you have to find in yourself.

maybe while you are looking for that courage, you might find a good answer for that whole "who made god" conundrum. i can wait, i expect it may take some time. much longer than it took to figure out how evolution works and build a solid case to support it.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

This is a tough call but this thread is a failure BP
It failed when you asked a bunch of ignorant non scientificaly minded atheists to watch videos about science
They are never going to watch anything related to science or anything that may force
them to think, they don't understand science
Look at the replies that state " I didn't watch the video but", then they reply like they understand the argument
Point scoring attacks on you personally BP by so many, generally because they havnt a real clue to deal with the issue examined

i have never seen you post anything remotely close to science or even factual.

did you watch the video? did you go through it line by line to isolate every statement and confirm it with a reliable publication? did you read the excerpt where the gentleman in question admits to being underqualified for an actual debate regarding intelligent design and evolution? did you make a bullet point list of all the facts, the methods by which they were derived, and the parties responsible for executing these methods?

for such reasons, i do not like videos. i like books. i like cited quotes, bibliographies, diagrams and visual aids, black and white words that leave no room for interpretation and no quibbling with semantics or metaphors. and such books are full of science you could never understand because you dont want to. none of us have the power to educate you against your will. and that is just fine. your right to be wrong is my right to tell you that you are wrong, and that is how civil rights should work. galileo would have thrived in such a world.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: GreenGunther

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: GreenGunther
After reading through 8 pages of this 'back and forth' there is only one conclusion to reach.. Religion indoctrinates.

I'll never touch the stuff

I so agree
But science educates, care to educate us

Or is this an indoctrinating science, you know a faith based religious, no evidence science religion

I’m happy to admit I don’t have all the answers and probably never will, atleast not in my lifetime.
But skyfairies are not for me.

Religion has done enough damage to the human consciousness.

Yeah and so has the religion of science, ala Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot
I am embarrassed for people like you and your arguments against religion when you can't tell the difference between the two
Evolution is a scientific religion, you are,as bad as me and you arnt smart enough to see it

I can see the evils of religion, I am alive to them
You are oblivious to yours

Jip

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: GreenGunther

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: GreenGunther
After reading through 8 pages of this 'back and forth' there is only one conclusion to reach.. Religion indoctrinates.

I'll never touch the stuff

I so agree
But science educates, care to educate us

Or is this an indoctrinating science, you know a faith based religious, no evidence science religion

I’m happy to admit I don’t have all the answers and probably never will, atleast not in my lifetime.
But skyfairies are not for me.

Religion has done enough damage to the human consciousness.

Yeah and so has the religion of science, ala Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot
I am embarrassed for people like you and your arguments against religion when you can't tell the difference between the two
Evolution is a scientific religion, you are,as bad as me and you arnt smart enough to see it

I can see the evils of religion, I am alive to them
You are oblivious to yours

the only thing in evolution that comes close to being a god is physics, which is a non sentient group of sub atomic forces that have zero interest in our worship.

religion noun
re·li·gion | ri-ˈli-jən
Definition of religion
1a : the state of a religious
a nun in her 20th year of religion
b(1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural

(2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

faith noun
ˈfāth
plural faithsˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāt͟hz
Definition of faith (Entry 1 of 2)
1a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY
lost faith in the company's president
b(1) : fidelity to one's promises

(2) : sincerity of intentions
acted in good faith

2a(1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God

(2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion

b(1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof
clinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return

(2) : complete trust

3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction

what makes science so incredibly useful is that the scientific method corrects its own findings all the time and makes great effort to keep all of the world informed. its perfection is in admitting its own imperfection and tirelessly grinding every hour of every day to improve the tools and techniques of the sharpest minds our species can offer. we trust science precisely because it is so skeptical and demands rigorous examination before accepting any observation as fact, particularly when an observation tries to cheat the world out of reliable data that anyone can test and confirm for themselves. this is the opposite of faith, the opposite of indoctrination, the opposite of spiritual conditioning and logical non sequiturs.

simply calling a system of critical thought a religion does not make it so. because those who are burdened with the responsibility of scientific inquiry can and have presented all of the tests and materials and procedures necessary to reproduce their data. what do you have to show us skeptical folk?

Here's a few books you should read:

The Vital Question by Nick Lane (Norton, 2016)
In Search of Cell History by Franklin m. Harold (2014)
The Origin and Nature of Life on Earth by Eric Smith and Harold Morowitz (2016)

And for a more philosophical consideration (less biochemistry or biophysics oriented)

Incomplete Nature by Terrence Deacon
Neither Ghost Nor Machine by Jeremy Sherman

Many questions remain to be answered, but there is already a solid coherent foundation to work from.

i) Life probably started in the deep seas around 4 billion years ago
ii) Hydrothermal deep sea alkaline vents made of olivine with nano-sized pores were likely the matrix of the first cells
iii) Perhaps oligomers like RNA's or Amino acids were made in space (i.e. asteroids), as many believe; but life didn't begin with replicating molecules like nucleic acids, but with a replicating membrane, a metabolic cycle generated from properties in and around the vents.

Obviously, replication is important, but most researchers believe it isn't the root of life. Metabolism is.

a reply to: TzarChasm

No you are wrong on so many levels so many times TC
Reading you is like reading a religios creed of some wacky denomination