Phantasms, Time-Slips and the Oz Factor

originally posted by: LoneCloudHopper2
I had this experience myself once, but I saw no UFO's, ghosts or time shifts (that I could tell.) I was walking in the woods one day and suddenly everything went quiet. The wind was gone. No trees were blowing or leaves moving at all. No sound. All the songbirds and life in the forest around me ceased making any sound at all. I could hear nor see any sound or movement anywhere, not even from far away. I did not notice if shadows disappeared or not, but otherwise it was exactly as described above. I didn't want to be the only living thing moving and making noise, so I became still and quiet. I half expected to see some giant spectre or something moving through the forest or something terrible that would frighten all living things still and quiet. I could see through some trees over a large hollow and portions of the woods beyond that, but I saw nothing. I sensed that something big was happening, but I could sense nothing in particular (nothing good nor evil, spiritual or alien.) I mention that because I'm usually quite sensitive to such things.

A minute or so later, the forest came back to life. Wind, leaves and limbs moving, songbirds, everything. It was like nothing weird had just happened. I turned back and headed home, unsure what to think about what had just happened.

Note: This was near an area of the woods where I had experienced a supernatural force which had frightened me away one time. I couldn't see or hear any predator or being, but I felt a great mass of negative energy condense not far from me and come towards me, as to frighten me away from something. Not sure how that may relate, but I suspect there are hidden forces in that forest that do not want to be seen by human eyes.

Good post mate as 30 years ago me and my friend experienced the same thing on a cloudy but bright Thursday night in July while we were walking down a street yet noticed no cars, people, sounds of birds or life in peoples house but then we observed a orange ball in the sky staying stationary for around 20 seconds/or onwards and then it just shot up in the sky and disappeared, the strange thing after that we and my friend never mentioned it ?

originally posted by: Kandinsky

The book's in the link and can be DLd to Kindle or whatever.

Ta very much!

originally posted by: Kandinsky

On Christianity? I'm too torn to say much. A good Christian is an asset to society and the typical Christian is paying lip service.

The teachings that have been ascribed to the figure Jesus, or were in fact taught by a chap called Jesus, are wonderful. They teach us how to live in an urban environment and cohabit with those who are different to us. Like most of the progressive faiths, those that profess the importance of the Golden Rule, do. I was raised around Christianity, have always enjoyed the Bible stories, New and Old Testament, so I find myself more attuned to those teachings culturally even if they didn't originally evolve in Europe. I think also, when you look at the way in which European laws and "rights" have been constructed that there is an inherent Christianity about them so that, through trial and quite a lot of devastating errors, we have come through and have created infrastructures that are inherently Judeo-Christian in nature. I don't feel that this is necessarily a bad thing, more of a caution that we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.

The difficulty, as I perceive it, however is that some of those "devastating errors" involved the imposition of Christianity by the sword and that Kings invariably felt the need to impose Christianity as part of a social hegemony - one King, one people - all believing in the same thing, united in purpose, combined with a "gifting" of higher clerical roles to the noble classes as a means of income. Local beliefs and practices that had evolved in conjunction with the environment and it's cycles were forbidden and repressed. Generation by generation we have lost touch with and understanding of those rhythms, hence, for me at least, when the less common beats make themselves heard we are at a loss to comprehend what message they may or may not be conveying.

Part and parcel of that, is how we have treated dissenting voices and categorised different ways of thinking and experiencing as madness (or heresy), particularly as we became immersed in the industrial. In Victorian England, with the re-introduction of a spiritualist belief system this did not change. Those who had experiences that conformed to widely held beliefs, or the system, were "gifted", those that didn't continued to be labelled as "mad". I am sure that you noticed when reading Podmore's book which you linked to in the OP, that the greater emphasis is given to those subjects who have never had any other forms of hallucination, with only a smattering of cases of those we would now term "experiencers". It's the major shortfall in their approach I think, that they do not try to make sense of the ramblings of mad-men and women, and which leads, inevitably, to a study that merely reaffirms, editorially, their own world view, and which leaves them ultimately wanting.

I personally know some truly wonderful people who identify themselves as Christians, clergy included. I kind of suspect though that they would be wonderful however they identified themselves.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Interesting observation. There were pine trees where I was but mostly spruce.

a reply to: 808Funk

Yes, definitely not a coincidence.

I had a very similar experience to this while in the city of Toronto. I don't feel brave enough to describe what I saw (it sounds crazier than an orange light,) but I believe these beings can shape-shift into many different forms, as to mess with our heads, perhaps. Anyway, it was just me and a guy driving and I looked around. No cars in the streets of this residential area we were driving through, just outside the super-busy city at rush hour. No people walking dogs. No dogs in a yard. No one. Nothing. The radio was playing, so I am not sure if everything went silent, but in hindsight it is difficult to say but maybe everything stood still (the Oz Factor.) But I was awestruck at the time by how no one was around, at all, like they all vanished or something...it's one of the most baffling experiences I ever had.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

I personally know some truly wonderful people who identify themselves as Christians, clergy included. I kind of suspect though that they would be wonderful however they identified themselves.

I'm agnostic by trade and can see the positives of Christian values both objectively and because I had a similar upbringing to yourself. All the family are agnostics, Protestants and Catholics.

In Victorian England, with the re-introduction of a spiritualist belief system this did not change. Those who had experiences that conformed to widely held beliefs, or the system, were "gifted", those that didn't continued to be labelled as "mad".

Religious visionary experiences were held in a different light much as they've ever been. Yes, it was a high time for Marian apparitions and all manner of coalescing belief systems. For argument's sake, a man can see a talking, burning bush or an angel in a cave and millions will take it as material fact. Stepping outside of religious belief structures is where the suppositions of madness (or evil) take over and the claimant/s are then held in great doubt.

I'm not arguing that everyone gets to be taken at face value and believed because that really would be madness. There seems to come a point where one thing is dismissed as nonsense whilst another is substantially similar and taken as evidence. Humans, eh?

I am sure that you noticed when reading Podmore's book which you linked to in the OP, that the greater emphasis is given to those subjects who have never had any other forms of hallucination, with only a smattering of cases of those we would now term "experiencers"

It's a fair point and ties in to what I was getting at earlier. Podmore's pursuit was very similar to Charles Fort's or J. Allen Hynek's and Jacques Vallee's and so on. It wasn't coincidence that Fort sought to glean his 'damned data' from academic journals and avoid tabloid hearsay. He wanted to overstep the automatic barriers that are apt to insist so-and-so's been drinking. 'Aha she's woo-woo and he was lying.' Podmore et al had to address the inevitable doubts about credibility or be drowned out by scoffers.

Due to the nature of these discussions, I expect you'll now be thinking I'm against scepticism - not at all! It's only that some forms of scepticism have more value than others. There are debunkers and believers who've already made their minds up, much like modern partisans, and feel their proclamations hold value. For me, a large part of being sceptical is an ability to suspend judgement.

It's the major shortfall in their approach I think, that they do not try to make sense of the ramblings of mad-men and women, and which leads, inevitably, to a study that merely reaffirms, editorially, their own world view, and which leaves them ultimately wanting.

Podmore altered his views over the years and exposure to the reports , and thereby hoaxes, made him more cautious. I believe he was a truly curious individual and a sceptic in his way. Your points are well taken and, as ever, with all of these topics whether they're ghosts, UFOs or NDEs, they are always 'ultimately wanting.'

ETA - here's an example of my scepticism after an oddly banal experience two years ago - Are Ghosts Really Hallucinations? I haven't a clue what happened and err towards a brain fart/hallucination.

originally posted by: LoneCloudHopper2
a reply to: 808Funk

Yes, definitely not a coincidence.

I had a very similar experience to this while in the city of Toronto. I don't feel brave enough to describe what I saw (it sounds crazier than an orange light,) but I believe these beings can shape-shift into many different forms, as to mess with our heads, perhaps. Anyway, it was just me and a guy driving and I looked around. No cars in the streets of this residential area we were driving through, just outside the super-busy city at rush hour. No people walking dogs. No dogs in a yard. No one. Nothing. The radio was playing, so I am not sure if everything went silent, but in hindsight it is difficult to say but maybe everything stood still (the Oz Factor.) But I was awestruck at the time by how no one was around, at all, like they all vanished or something...it's one of the most baffling experiences I ever had.

I often wonder if I should get Hypnotherapy see if I get recollect back then as well as my other experience ?

originally posted by: LoneCloudHopper2
a reply to: 808Funk

Yes, definitely not a coincidence.

I had a very similar experience to this while in the city of Toronto. I don't feel brave enough to describe what I saw (it sounds crazier than an orange light,) but I believe these beings can shape-shift into many different forms, as to mess with our heads, perhaps. Anyway, it was just me and a guy driving and I looked around. No cars in the streets of this residential area we were driving through, just outside the super-busy city at rush hour. No people walking dogs. No dogs in a yard. No one. Nothing. The radio was playing, so I am not sure if everything went silent, but in hindsight it is difficult to say but maybe everything stood still (the Oz Factor.) But I was awestruck at the time by how no one was around, at all, like they all vanished or something...it's one of the most baffling experiences I ever had.

I often wonder if I should get Hypnotherapy see if I get recollect back then as well as my other experience ?

a reply to: 808Funk

A good hypnotherapist could help. Wouldn't hurt to at least try.

originally posted by: KilgoreTrout

The hypnotist involved was George Albert Smith.

en.wikipedia.org...(film_pioneer)

Thanks for providing the source, but it doesn't support your earlier statement, "Podmore himself, with Frederick Myers, was the subject of a hoax with his experiments in Brighton with telepathic communication, despite the magicians involved coming clean, Podmore and Myers refused to believe them."

It doesn't state that Myers and Podmore attended Smith and Blackburn's act in Brighton. Although they continued to employ Smith as a private secretary after Hall had concluded he was a fake, it was only Blackburn who admitted to the hoax, and that was later. Myers refused to acknowledge this, but I've seen nothing to suggest that Podmore was equally blinkered.

originally posted by: Night Star
a reply to: 808Funk

A good hypnotherapist could help. Wouldn't hurt to at least try.

Cheers for that as you wouldn't believe me but saw some red lights in the sky tonight and at one point it looked like they looted up and and moved like a craft, going check my slo mo on my Apple Camera if I caught one of the red lights but my daughter saw one of them.

a reply to: EvilAxis

This is a good article on the controversies of the alleged hoax - Smith and Blackburn.

Incidentally, there's a popular perspective that being hoaxed is proof of poor character, weak judgement and way too much will to believe. I saw the argument made multiple times out on the JREF forums as well as throughout the leading spokespeople in ufology. For me there's a flipside because the hoaxers have shown a propensity to be dishonest and the motivation to act on it. Can they be trusted?

Despite these concerns, it's evident that people can become susceptible to unhealthy beliefs once they've experienced something extraordinary. Have you heard of Kübler-Ross? Her life's work has improved the lives of millions of people; arguably she was amongst the most significant humans of the 20th C. She became involved in NDE research through her work with the dying. She had a couple of strange experiences and came to believe in souls and an afterlife. Such beliefs are fairly common in the hospice care sector so she had confirmation wherever her work took her.

Sadly, she was then exploited by a fake medium who ripped her off and screwed her mind over. Some would argue her psychological demise negated everything else and I take a softer view. When someone is faced with something their rational mind can't satisfactorily explain a domino effect can transpire - an unravelling.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
Religious visionary experiences were held in a different light much as they've ever been. Yes, it was a high time for Marian apparitions and all manner of coalescing belief systems. For argument's sake, a man can see a talking, burning bush or an angel in a cave and millions will take it as material fact. Stepping outside of religious belief structures is where the suppositions of madness (or evil) take over and the claimant/s are then held in great doubt.

I have found it to be a little more complex than that. In a short form, areligious experience can be "good" or "bad", and that value can be placed upon it by the church. If it is deemed "bad" then the experiencer would be encouraged to renounce it, if however they refused to do so and continued to preach/teach or in some other way spread the vision, they would be accused of heresy. You can only be accused of heresy if you are a baptised Christian. Everyone else who has a vision that is not a Christian, unless that vision conforms to doctrine and leads to conversion, is mad. Similarly, in most societies, eccentricities are tolerated or even encouraged as long as the status quo is not questioned. If you question the system, you are mad.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
I'm not arguing that everyone gets to be taken at face value and believed because that really would be madness. There seems to come a point where one thing is dismissed as nonsense whilst another is substantially similar and taken as evidence. Humans, eh?

Indeed.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
It's a fair point and ties in to what I was getting at earlier. Podmore's pursuit was very similar to Charles Fort's or J. Allen Hynek's and Jacques Vallee's and so on. It wasn't coincidence that Fort sought to glean his 'damned data' from academic journals and avoid tabloid hearsay. He wanted to overstep the automatic barriers that are apt to insist so-and-so's been drinking. 'Aha she's woo-woo and he was lying.' Podmore et al had to address the inevitable doubts about credibility or be drowned out by scoffers.

I suspect that much of the problem lies in wanting to prove what cannot be proved because it is by it's nature fleeting and ephemeral for the majority of people, and in being fearful of the answers that may be given by those for whom similar experiences are more manifest. I think though that often, that truth is not one many wish to consider because of the negative connotations, however one could argue that the negative connotations are a modern affix, in the past, certainly the ancient world, the ramblings of mad men and women were, while not welcomed, considered worthy of being listened to, even recorded and those that uttered them were maintained by the community they served.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
Due to the nature of these discussions, I expect you'll now be thinking I'm against scepticism - not at all! It's only that some forms of scepticism have more value than others. There are debunkers and believers who've already made their minds up, much like modern partisans, and feel their proclamations hold value. For me, a large part of being sceptical is an ability to suspend judgement.

I can't make up my mind about anything so I don't unless forced to. It's kind of like being open minded, but not.

originally posted by: Kandinsky

Podmore altered his views over the years and exposure to the reports , and thereby hoaxes, made him more cautious. I believe he was a truly curious individual and a sceptic in his way. Your points are well taken and, as ever, with all of these topics whether they're ghosts, UFOs or NDEs, they are always 'ultimately wanting.'

ETA - here's an example of my scepticism after an oddly banal experience two years ago - Are Ghosts Really Hallucinations? I haven't a clue what happened and err towards a brain fart/hallucination.

I vaguely remember reading that...I think Gurney and Podmore were similarly inclined towards ghosts or similar apparitions being hallucinations but they also believed, as I understood it, that those apparitions occupied physical space and had an objective existence...which I have interpreted to mean that they believed in the possibility of alternate realities, and/or that they believed that the hallucinations were being transmitted telepathically, the latter seems to be what their research in Brighton sought to explore. Myers seems to have been more interested in the concept of soul and the perpetuation of identity beyond death. I can't help but wonder though if Gurney's mysterious death was some attempt at a NDE that went wrong, the two appear to have had a very odd connection.

I've never seen a ghost, as far as I know, but I don't take that as proof that they don't exist, just that it disinclines me towards their belief, which in no way implies that I don't believe people when they say they have seen something, only that I am unlikely to believe it to be a ghost.

originally posted by: EvilAxis
Thanks for providing the source, but it doesn't support your earlier statement, "Podmore himself, with Frederick Myers, was the subject of a hoax with his experiments in Brighton with telepathic communication, despite the magicians involved coming clean, Podmore and Myers refused to believe them."

No, you're completely right, it does not, I was, I believe, conflating events and had also decided to take Blackburn's account as red while discounting Smith's...but I still favour Blackburn. However more pertinently the end of the experiments came prior to Blackburn's confession and so Podmore et al did not know, one way or another, at that time whether that they had been "hoaxed".

I stand thoroughly corrected. Apologies.

originally posted by: EvilAxis
It doesn't state that Myers and Podmore attended Smith and Blackburn's act in Brighton. Although they continued to employ Smith as a private secretary after Hall had concluded he was a fake, it was only Blackburn who admitted to the hoax, and that was later. Myers refused to acknowledge this, but I've seen nothing to suggest that Podmore was equally blinkered.

As I understand it they did go and see their act but as a consequence of seeing it they hired the pair to perform hypnosis for experimental purposes with Smith initially recruiting a number of boys as subjects with the intent to "test" whether, through hypnosis, the boys could be made to transmit and accept telepathic thoughts, and "remote view" distant events. These experiments were carried out between 1883 and 1888, including demonstrations or performances before the SPR and other interested parties. I presume that given that they devoted five years to the pursuit of these studies that they obtained some positive results, I've read that one boy, Parsons, identified Jack the Ripper during one session.

a reply to: 808Funk

That could be very interesting. Hypnotherapy is interesting in itself, as you may recall many different things, even past life memories.

Group visual hysreria my azz.....it's just the demons using their old time outfits to disrupt or get a contact with the humans.....interdimensional yes.....scientific time slip no......I have a ton more....my time slip was the Holy Spirit intervening...I died at DFW airport in 79 at Branniff....on the ramp.....1am, got hit by a 747 loader....ran into my tug, with 6 baggage cars

originally posted by: LoneCloudHopper2
a reply to: 808Funk

That could be very interesting. Hypnotherapy is interesting in itself, as you may recall many different things, even past life memories.

The only drawback in doing so is that I wouldn't want it to freak me out ?

a reply to: 808Funk

I haven't heard many negatives about past life regressions. They even sound fun. The downside (when I looked a few years ago) are fees of £100 an hour and no great way of vetting the hypnotherapist other their social media feedback. If someone was about £50 and had a great reputation I'd easily have a go for entertainment points.

Thanks for the Smith & Blackburn link Kandinsky. I was particularly fascinated to discover Smith's pioneering film work.

originally posted by: KilgoreTrout
I stand thoroughly corrected. Apologies.

No need, I was just trying to get clarity on the matter.

Like you, I have no ghostly encounters to report but I find the subject intriguing because of the rich anecdotal material. I defy anyone to read Andrew MacKenzie's Hauntings & Apparitions (from Society for Psychical Research) at night in an attic bedroom of an old house, as I did many years ago, and say they don't believe in ghosts, at least until the morning.

If they do exist, the most uncanny thing about them is their knack of avoiding cameras. But what am I to make of the many accounts from family, friends and acquaintances who seem in no doubt about what they've 'seen'?

a reply to: Kandinsky

originally posted by: EvilAxis
Like you, I have no ghostly encounters to report but I find the subject intriguing because of the rich anecdotal material. I defy anyone to read Andrew MacKenzie's Hauntings & Apparitions (from Society for Psychical Research) at night in an attic bedroom of an old house, as I did many years ago, and say they don't believe in ghosts, at least until the morning.

I've worked in two hotels in which other people have reported seeing ghosts (both "grey ladies", the most English of ghosts, certainly one of the most common to Victorian buildings) and one of the buildings that I am currently responsible for, parts of which date to the 12th century) is supposed to have a spectral monk. In all those buildings I have been quite happy to be alone. Old buildings are constantly moving and shifting. The woodwork, and sometimes the rats in the walls, can make quite a racket when there is just you and the dark to listen to it. It's only when other humans are there, when they shouldn't be, that I find anything to get spooked about. Or if I make physical contact with a spider. On such occasions I may emit a squeak.