Phantasms, Time-Slips and the Oz Factor

originally posted by: 808Funk
a reply to: Kandinsky

I suppose millions have experienced some sort of oddity from a different world, time or dimension ( I have a few times) but when we leave this Earth then the answers might be hopefully be answered.

My rational side hopes there's nothing more and that our consciousness simply ends with the last synapse failing to fire. The oddities, life experiences and Forteana suggest there's another facet to reality and I guess the uncertainty slightly unnerves me.

a reply to: Madrusa

I'll come back to this after mulling it over. Being agnostic means being inherently sceptical and choosing words carefully. I don't have the words right now and will wait for them to arrive as they usually do.

a reply to: Klassified

Ah, but who knows what epiphanies and/or events may come out of what is now perceived as mundane.

I've been plagued/haunted/privileged (depending on your perspective) by coincidences/synchronicities for years. Epiphanies are implicit although not necessarily wanted.

I think the new BSG is among the best re-boots of a series I have ever seen. It is a layered show. The surface, the philosophical, and the "Easter eggs" for those with the observational ambition to pick them out. This scene with the few minutes before and after being one of them.

You've sold it well enough that a visit to Pirate Bay is on the (event) horizon.

This is a good account about strange sightings of a Monk but the interesting part starts at the 11 minute mark.
youtu.be...

originally posted by: Madrusa
a reply to: Kandinsky

There is valid religious tradition involved in terms of liminal places and experiences of ascent and descent, take for example Merkaba tradition and the Doctrine of the Heavenly Palace;

These four worlds are spiritual, Heavenly realms in a descending chain, although the lowest world of Assiah has both a spiritual and a physical aspect. The physical level of Assiah is our physical finite realm, including the cosmological Universe studied by Science..


That's highly influential in Masonic tradition were the allegorical Temple of Solomon is such a liminal place reconstructed in the Lodge, a supposed place of ascent, there are variations on this in other traditions as its the basis for any Temple complex.

From my own experience imagine a theme park, Palace of Heavenly Purity Forbidden City, that transcends space and time held together by force fields of pure intellect, a meeting place of minds from across the entire Universe that can manifest in any form within
.

I have experienced these things myself , and especially the sparks flying part.
That dimension of reality exists outside of time , and is where lost souls roam...

a reply to: radarloveguy


The doctrine of that mystical place in Christianity...

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Hebrews 11:10,14-15 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God…

Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

originally posted by: Kandinsky

A lot of what you say is accurate and mesmerism was a popular topic then. Seances, mesmerism, poltergeists and more. With regards to the letter, there's no reference to telepathy or mesmerism. It's a stand-alone missive with intriguing elements and I'm cool if you disagree.

I am not in any way disputing the presence of intrigue in the case, quite the opposite. The author of the letter cannot be verified, nor can the collaborating account from her sister, and the housemaid would have little choice in saying what she was told to say, so her account would not be valid even if given. It has a literary bent, and my first impression would be to conclude that it is a fictional account, whether it was concocted by a stranger writing in, or by someone in the SPR, I don't know. It could be a simple attempt to boost interest, or it could be a malign attempt to lead the SPR astray. Much of the latter was certainly going on towards the latter half of the decade with the Theosophists taking a highly aggressive stance against any competing "faction". But, long story short, while there may be some incidences that could account for all three having a similar experience, synchronicity of their menses for example or as you've discussed some kind of electro-magnetic "anomally", I find it difficult to believe that they all had exactly the same experience unless there were to be another human actor involved pulling the strings in some way.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
'Japes' are always a possibility. It's the same in our time with extraordinary encounters. If we can't explain them, we can brush them off as hoaxes and japes. The existence of hoaxers doesn't persuade me that all claimants are hoaxers. Likewise, being hoaxed doesn't inevitably downgrade the victim to inconsequential status. Again, you could disagree and I'm still cool.

Japes, to me, implies being in it for the giggles, perhaps with a touch of the female neurosis that was so prevalent at the time when women and girls of the upper-middle classes spent a lot of their time in mind numbing pursuits. Those little girls in Yorkshire who made the fairy photos spring to mind, or the Salem Witch Trials if we are to go back a little further. Over-active but under used imaginations have a potency all their own.

I'm slightly less inclined towards it being a hoax in intent, but the beliefs of those involved, and the wishfulfilment that such a letter could offer, would perhaps incline someone to be less critically engaged in evaluating or checking the facts. Besides, they were a fledgling organisation at that time, still finding their feet and material to populate their publication and it is a tidy, well-presented narrative that would engage the imaginations of their readers...but we have the power of retrospect and do not have Victorian mentalities, thankfully.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
I'm reminded of Conan Doyle. His propensity to being conned means I don't take him seriously. Podmore is someone I respect and it's nigh on impossible to avoid falling for the occasional hoax.

I agree. We all have a tendency to crave a little magic and willfully forget to check behind the curtain so as not to spoil the illusion - if there is one.

originally posted by: EvilAxis
Do you have a reference for those experiments and the magicians' names? I couldn't find any.

Myers was far more credulous than Podmore.

The hypnotist involved was George Albert Smith.

It was in Brighton in the early 1880s that Smith first came to public attention touring the city's performance halls as a stage hypnotist. In 1882 he teamed up with Douglas Blackburn in an act at the Brighton Aquarium involving muscle reading, in which the blindfolded performer identifies objects selected by the audience, and second sight, in which the blindfolded performer finds objects hidden by his assistant somewhere in the theatre.[4]

The Society for Psychical Research (SPR) accepted Smith's claims that the act was genuine and after becoming a member of the society he was appointed private secretary to the Honorary Secretary Edmund Gurney from 1883 to 1888. In 1887, Gurney carried out a number of "hypnotic experiments" in Brighton, with Smith as his "hypnotiser", which in their day made Gurney an impressive figure to the British public.

Since then it has been heavily studied and critiqued by Trevor H. Hall in his study The Strange Case of Edmund Gurney. Hall concluded that Smith (using his stage abilities) faked the results that Gurney trusted in his research papers, and this may have led to Gurney's mysterious death from a narcotic overdose in June 1888. Following Gurney's death, his successors, F. W. H. Myers and Frank Podmore, continued to employ Smith as their private secretary. In 1889, he co-authored (with Henry Sidgwick and Eleanor Mildred Sidgwick) the paper, Experiments in Thought Transference, for the society's journal.[5]

Blackburn publicly admitted fraud in 1908 and again in 1911,[6] although Smith consistently denied it.[7][8]

en.wikipedia.org...(film_pioneer)

Podmore's primary role appears to have been the recruitment of subjects which both his work in the GPO and the Fabian Society as a researcher in "unemployed labour" provided ample access to. The studies seemed to focus on working class male youths, their receptiveness to hypnosis and how that that could be utilised to effect thought transference or remote viewing. Myers' brother, Arthur, was an epileptic, so I think that his interest may have arisen through the "visionary" aspect that is commonly reported by sufferers. I'm not sure.

Best thread for Halloween.

originally posted by: 808Funk
a reply to: Kandinsky

I suppose millions have experienced some sort of oddity from a different world, time or dimension ( I have a few times) but when we leave this Earth then the answers might be hopefully be answered.

The answers do not matter once we leave.

Other questions similarly there are not answered.

One big problem.

Someone does not want us knowing the full answers EVER and will do anything to keep us from it.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

I am not in any way disputing the presence of intrigue in the case, quite the opposite. The author of the letter cannot be verified, nor can the collaborating account from her sister, and the housemaid would have little choice in saying what she was told to say, so her account would not be valid even if given.

What purpose would verification serve? There may be letters in the SPR archives and a means of establishing the existence of the correspondent. Even so, I'm not sure if verification would add to, or detract from, the letter.

But, long story short, while there may be some incidences that could account for all three having a similar experience, synchronicity of their menses for example or as you've discussed some kind of electro-magnetic "anomally", I find it difficult to believe that they all had exactly the same experience unless there were to be another human actor involved pulling the strings in some way.

The three lads in the OP had nothing more than a claim either; they were verified and came bearing an extraordinary story. There are lots of unusual reports involving more than one person so the claims in the letter aren't so unbelievable.

Japes, to me, implies being in it for the giggles, perhaps with a touch of the female neurosis that was so prevalent at the time when women and girls of the upper-middle classes spent a lot of their time in mind numbing pursuits. Those little girls in Yorkshire who made the fairy photos spring to mind, or the Salem Witch Trials if we are to go back a little further. Over-active but under used imaginations have a potency all their own.

Yes, such things can't ever be ruled out and japes/hoaxes will account for a lot of the accounts. I actually like the one in the OP and have no issue with someone else thinking it's a stinker.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
Yes, such things can't ever be ruled out and japes/hoaxes will account for a lot of the accounts. I actually like the one in the OP and have no issue with someone else thinking it's a stinker.

Who said it was a "stinker"? The stinker!

I think clearly I find it very interesting and like the story very much, just not for the same reasons as you.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

Well there's no need to be insulting ffs. How dare you!!

I'm joking.

Different perspectives are great amongst adults. I like looking at all sides to these things and enjoyed reading Gurney as much as Houdini a few years ago.

a reply to: Kandinsky

I don't know a tremendous amount about either of them, Houdini almost nothing probably. The SPR lot moved in highly influential circles, and in terms of the reasons that many of them appeared to have developed their interest in "phantasms" has parallels with where we are at today I think, perched on a precipice at the bounds of what is known. I wonder if like them, in frustration, we're retreating into the realms of superstition because reality is getting a little too real. I know that I feel that tug quite frequently...then I look back at them and where that has gotten us and it loosens.

It wasn't my intention to rain on anyone's parade, or to be dismissive of anyone's experiences. I'm jaded I am afraid, but optimistically so.

originally posted by: ParasuvO

originally posted by: 808Funk
a reply to: Kandinsky

I suppose millions have experienced some sort of oddity from a different world, time or dimension ( I have a few times) but when we leave this Earth then the answers might be hopefully be answered.

The answers do not matter once we leave.

Other questions similarly there are not answered.

One big problem.

Hope the Heavens are not governed by the the people who govern our Earth as we be in deep # even after death.

Someone does not want us knowing the full answers EVER and will do anything to keep us from it.

Hope the Heavens are not governed by the the people who govern our Earth as we be in deep # even after death.

I had this experience myself once, but I saw no UFO's, ghosts or time shifts (that I could tell.) I was walking in the woods one day and suddenly everything went quiet. The wind was gone. No trees were blowing or leaves moving at all. No sound. All the songbirds and life in the forest around me ceased making any sound at all. I could hear nor see any sound or movement anywhere, not even from far away. I did not notice if shadows disappeared or not, but otherwise it was exactly as described above. I didn't want to be the only living thing moving and making noise, so I became still and quiet. I half expected to see some giant spectre or something moving through the forest or something terrible that would frighten all living things still and quiet. I could see through some trees over a large hollow and portions of the woods beyond that, but I saw nothing. I sensed that something big was happening, but I could sense nothing in particular (nothing good nor evil, spiritual or alien.) I mention that because I'm usually quite sensitive to such things.

A minute or so later, the forest came back to life. Wind, leaves and limbs moving, songbirds, everything. It was like nothing weird had just happened. I turned back and headed home, unsure what to think about what had just happened.

Note: This was near an area of the woods where I had experienced a supernatural force which had frightened me away one time. I couldn't see or hear any predator or being, but I felt a great mass of negative energy condense not far from me and come towards me, as to frighten me away from something. Not sure how that may relate, but I suspect there are hidden forces in that forest that do not want to be seen by human eyes.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

You may well enjoy Houdini's book, A Magician Amongst the Spirits where he recalled his encounters with mediums and parlour spiritualists. Dunglas Home gets flayed alongside Palladino and there are interesting passages on ectoplasm and so on.

I wonder if like them, in frustration, we're retreating into the realms of superstition because reality is getting a little too real. I know that I feel that tug quite frequently...then I look back at them and where that has gotten us and it loosens.

Has it ever been different? There are always credulous/hopeful audiences looking for a star and hucksters looking for an audience. We see it in the UFO field, superchurches and paranormal TV shows. Guess who's still performing? I couldn't believe my eyes. Derek Acorah! Proof that people don't care to be informed. Acorah would have been a legend back in the late 19th C.

For me, I'm interested in things that remain controversial or unexplained - NDEs, why people see ghosts, what are UFOs? It doesn't mean I believe in afterlives, ghosts or visiting aliens, it's an expression of curiosity as well as enjoying the company of eccentric, though intelligent, people. It's also a search for explanations for things I've experienced or people close have experienced.

Humanity in general seems wedded to superstitious beliefs and arguably conspiracy thinking is filling the hole left by Christianity in the West. Who knows?

a reply to: LoneCloudHopper2

I haven't had that specific experience of sensing presences. I've certainly had the sudden stillness in woods and forests. Pine woods seem to have it more frequently with their sound-insulating carpet of fallen needles adding to the depth of silence. It's good to stand still, pause, and just soak in the quiet (dogs and friends included) until some distant branch of dead wood falls.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: KilgoreTrout

You may well enjoy Houdini's book, A Magician Amongst the Spirits where he recalled his encounters with mediums and parlour spiritualists. Dunglas Home gets flayed alongside Palladino and there are interesting passages on ectoplasm and so on.

Thanks for the recommendation, I shall keep an eye out for it.

originally posted by: Kandinsky

Has it ever been different? There are always credulous/hopeful audiences looking for a star and hucksters looking for an audience. We see it in the UFO field, superchurches and paranormal TV shows. Guess who's still performing? I couldn't believe my eyes. Derek Acorah! Proof that people don't care to be informed. Acorah would have been a legend back in the late 19th C.

For me, I'm interested in things that remain controversial or unexplained - NDEs, why people see ghosts, what are UFOs? It doesn't mean I believe in afterlives, ghosts or visiting aliens, it's an expression of curiosity as well as enjoying the company of eccentric, though intelligent, people. It's also a search for explanations for things I've experienced or people close have experienced.

I do appreciate that, and similarly that is some of what motivates and invigorates me, but I am also interested in how those beliefs reflect the overall health of society.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
Humanity in general seems wedded to superstitious beliefs and arguably conspiracy thinking is filling the hole left by Christianity in the West. Who knows?

Christianity still fills it's own hole. It's power extends far beyond the bums on seats and while it is clear from the actions of it's clergy that, just like the fool, they know in their heart that God is dead, that is quite different from what people will and do say for the sake of appearances. Christianity is very much still a fixture in enforcing social (including criminal) hierarchy in many countries. Superstition is perhaps then a natural antidote to such widespread corruption, and it's tool. No wonder we keep going round in circles.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Very interesting thread topic OP.

You could just about turn this in to a publishable magazine article or a book if you want to.

Kudos, will be interesting to see where this thread leads. I hope it has the legs of the RFI or AATIP threads

Cheers

Krusty

a reply to: Krusty the Klown

Thanks. Formatting was a nightmare because as soon as I hit 'post' it appeared with huge spaces and text all disjointed.

The topic, like you say, is interesting for touching on reality and how much of it we all agree on. Here are three quotes we can all agree on even though they disagree with each other.

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
– Philip K. Dick

2- Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
– Albert Einstein

3- Reality leaves a lot to the imagination.
– John Lennon

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

The book's in the link and can be DLd to Kindle or whatever.

I do appreciate that, and similarly that is some of what motivates and invigorates me, but I am also interested in how those beliefs reflect the overall health of society.

I believe the current animosity to science and rational thinking, and the elevation of anti-intellectualism, shows societies are in poor health. Too much 'good versus evil' as well as almost a rejection of random chance. Tragedies must be scripted rather being random events etc. Someone must be to blame!

On Christianity? I'm too torn to say much. A good Christian is an asset to society and the typical Christian is paying lip service. Your point about going in circles is accurate!