Media trying to make Nationalism a racist idea

I was just watching CNN international and the anchor was interviewing an author and the anchor was pushing the author to call Nationalism bad. It was sickening to watch but the author was like it isn't bad, the Nazi's perverted it. of course this didn't stop the anchor from keeping on pushing his agenda... I hate the political correctness and then some that the left has pushed, I am starting to see them for what they are.

a reply to: Grambler

Couple main points:

1. I don't think it was a great idea to seize on Trump's comments for this exact reason. Somehow on the Right, in recent years the word "nationalism" has taking on different connotations.

It's almost like a lot folks basically take it to be interchangeable with the word patriotism. I know this and that's why when I want to talk about something like fascism, I make a point of saying "ultranationalism."

2. The word "nationalism" is not interchangeable with the word "patriotism." While there is some gratuitous conflation with "white nationalism" (The Hill by the way is a right-leaning outlet), the word "nationalism" has long had negative connotations that distinguish it from patriotism, going back to probably WWI. In that regard, it's many on the Right and now Trump who are trying to shift the connotations to make "nationalist" mean "super patriot."

It reminds me of when a lot of Trump supporters started identifying as "alt-right" because they couldn't accept that it wasn't some term made up by the Left to denigrate Trump supporters.

So what are the differences between "nationalism" and "patriotism?" Merriam-Webster has a page:

The Difference Between 'Patriotism' and 'Nationalism'

Let’s take a few minutes to go over the respective histories of these two words to see where and when they shared meaning and in what senses they have drifted apart.

Patriotism is the older of the two words, with published written evidence dating back to the middle of the 17th century. Patriotism came from adding the suffix of -ism to the existing word patriot, which itself came into English from the French patriote, and may be traced back further to the Greek word patrios (“of one’s father”).

We do not have any evidence of nationalism occurring until just before the 19th century, almost a hundred and fifty years after patriotism. And in its early use, from the end of the 18th century onward for a number of decades, nationalism appears to have been largely interchangeable with patriotism, with both words primarily being used to refer to a general love of one’s country.

So far so good.

These two words may have shared a distinct sense in the 19th century, but they appear to have grown apart since. Or rather, it would be more accurate to say that only nationalism has grown apart, since the meaning of patriotism has remained largely unchanged. There are still obvious areas of overlap: we define patriotism as “love for or devotion to one’s country” and nationalism in part as “loyalty and devotion to a nation.” But the definition of nationalism also includes “exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.” This exclusionary aspect is not shared by patriotism.

A somewhat subtler difference between the two words may be found in their modifiers and the ideas to which each is connected. When we examine large bodies of recent text we see that patriotism is more often used in a general sense, often in conjunction with such words as bravery, valor, duty, and devotion. Nationalism, however, tends to find itself modified by specific movements, most frequently of a political bent.

So now that we’ve briefly looked over the history of patriotism and nationalism can we draw any firm conclusions about whether one or the other is pejorative? The answer is: it depends. It seems certain that, at least with nationalism, it may mean different things to different people. Of the six different kinds of X nationalism cited just above, it is likely that most people would find some politically questionable, and others not. Patriotism is rarely used in these contexts. In U.S. usage nationalism is now perhaps most frequently associated with white nationalism, and has considerably negative connotations.

As has been brought up a number of times today, Orwell famously made clear the distinction between the two.

George Orwell - Notes on Nationalism

By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’(1). But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.

Then he goes on to enumerate traits of nationalism. I'll post the first sentence or two from each block:

Obsession. As nearly as possible, no nationalist ever thinks, talks, or writes about anything except the superiority of his own power unit.

Instability. The intensity with which they are held does not prevent nationalist loyalties from being transferable.

Indifference to Reality. All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts. A British Tory will defend self-determination in Europe and oppose it in India with no feeling of inconsistency.

I think a simple way to think of it is the difference between a moderate an extremist. Say, a moderate Christian and a Christian who would personally stone a gay person to death because the OT says that's appropriate or a moderate Muslim and a Muslim who will throw gay people off buildings. (unsurprising extremists of both have similar beliefs)

Also, here's The Mooch saying Trump isn't a nationalist and somebody should explain the nuance to him.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Grambler

If you like your country, you're a Nazi.
If you don't want open borders, you're a racist.
If you didn't vote for Hillary, you're a sexist.
If you want lower taxes, you're greedy.
If you served in the armed forces, you're a domestic terrorist.
If you are for free speech you're a Nazi sympathizer.
If you want to preserve the 2nd Amendment, you are a "gun nut".
If you are against terrorism, you're an islamophobe.


Did I miss any?

Wow, you deserve some kind of award for that!

a reply to: Grambler

I'm all for national pride and all, but we need to acknowledge the immigrants who contributed to much of the nations culture.

Most people love Hamburgers and claim that it is an american invention-wrong. It was invented in the US by German migrants from-wait for it-Hamburg. Love spaghetti n' meatballs? who doesn't? americans also claim to have invented it, no-it was the italian immigrants who arrived at Ellis island who arrived in a country without a beef scarcity. Chinese food? that question needs no answer. NASA would never had won the space race if it wasn't for operation paperclip, where German scientists influenced the future science type guys to put the first man on the moon.

The next time someone wants to build a wall then eat a taco, fajita or burrito then they deserve a clothesline from hell. I agree with Trump on one idea-our country, our rules and if you don't abide by our rules...pack your bags. But we should allow anyone with good intentions to make a better life for themselves.

All "Nationalism" is toxic, Right/left far-right/far-left...there are racial and xenophobic connotations

but, name one President that wasn't a Nationalists... and I know you will all say "Obama" but that is just rightists propaganda with some dog-whistling, all presidents are Nationalists, Patriotism and nationalism go hand-hand

Hitler was a Nationalist, and Gandhi was a Nationalist

originally posted by: Thecakeisalie
a reply to: Grambler

I'm all for national pride and all, but we need to acknowledge the immigrants who contributed to much of the nations culture.

Most people love Hamburgers and claim that it is an american invention-wrong. It was invented in the US by German migrants from-wait for it-Hamburg. Love spaghetti n' meatballs? who doesn't? americans also claim to have invented it, no-it was the italian immigrants who arrived at Ellis island who arrived in a country without a beef scarcity. Chinese food? that question needs no answer. NASA would never had won the space race if it wasn't for operation paperclip, where German scientists influenced the future science type guys to put the first man on the moon.

The next time someone wants to build a wall then eat a taco, fajita or burrito then they deserve a clothesline from hell. I agree with Trump on one idea-our country, our rules and if you don't abide by our rules...pack your bags. But we should allow anyone with good intentions to make a better life for themselves.

Exactly, I'm also a fan of " move here and adopt the culture or bugger off " I don't care you are or where your from as long as you make an effort.

Our Commander in Chief definitely should put our country first. It’s why he is elected President. We don’t elect a President to take care of everyone else and a bunch of migrants who think we owe it to them to let them in or a bunch of Marxists who hate free enterprise. This world socialism cr$& is nuts. And yes Hitler was a socialist and he did things to that end. Russian communists also believed in their country. I’m tired of Progressives masking their hatred of America as a love of others.

a reply to: DBCowboy
You got a point .... Vos de La Raza translates to “voice of the race”. How about Puerto Rico.... I’ve heard them crying “Puerto RICO “ all over the place... like when I lived in Orlando they’d say it on the Latino radio programs. Progressives hate America and they hate free enterprise and they want regulations and Open Borders.

Sadly it does appear loving your country is being taken by many as racist. I had an incident about a month ago with the flag. I fly a flag because I spent 20 years in the military so its sort of my tribute to the guys I fought with. While i was out front mowing this woman stopped by the street and honked. So I got off the mower walked over to her only to have her tell me that I shouldn't fly the flag as it would upset someone. I advised her I was unconcerned about someone's opinion of the flag to which she said well don't say I didn't warn you. To which I said I think ill be ok I have guns to keep people off my lawn. Oddly she drove off at first I found it funny but now I see it differently.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Which traditionally is what happens. However the illegal immigrants are not following that tradition in the way past immigrants have. LEGAL hispanic immigrants do.

a reply to: theantediluvian

So good and yet.. so ignored!

Deny ignorance, anyone? There isn't even an ounce of politicsm in this, promised!

a reply to: Thecakeisalie

Your post has nothing to do with the topic. So few people you might as well say no one cares about legal immigrants who are or have come to America.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Arnie123

This is just another failure on the part of leftists who try to associate negative connotations attributed to anyone right of them.

This post is a precuror to Antes post and DB is exactly right, like right on que....

a reply to: theantediluvian

Nationalism and patriotism are not the same thing, but they are entwined. A good father will not see his own son starve so someone else's son can eat because his family comes first, that's nationalism. A good president will put his country first. That does not mean he doesn't care about others and will not help others, only that his own country will always come first.

originally posted by: dragonridr
Sadly it does appear loving your country is being taken by many as racist. I had an incident about a month ago with the flag. I fly a flag because I spent 20 years in the military so its sort of my tribute to the guys I fought with. While i was out front mowing this woman stopped by the street and honked. So I got off the mower walked over to her only to have her tell me that I shouldn't fly the flag as it would upset someone. I advised her I was unconcerned about someone's opinion of the flag to which she said well don't say I didn't warn you. To which I said I think ill be ok I have guns to keep people off my lawn. Oddly she drove off at first I found it funny but now I see it differently.

Good for you ! People like that need to hear the truth !

originally posted by: Thecakeisalie
a reply to: Grambler

I'm all for national pride and all, but we need to acknowledge the immigrants who contributed to much of the nations culture.

Most people love Hamburgers and claim that it is an american invention-wrong. It was invented in the US by German migrants from-wait for it-Hamburg. Love spaghetti n' meatballs? who doesn't? americans also claim to have invented it, no-it was the italian immigrants who arrived at Ellis island who arrived in a country without a beef scarcity. Chinese food? that question needs no answer. NASA would never had won the space race if it wasn't for operation paperclip, where German scientists influenced the future science type guys to put the first man on the moon.

The next time someone wants to build a wall then eat a taco, fajita or burrito then they deserve a clothesline from hell. I agree with Trump on one idea-our country, our rules and if you don't abide by our rules...pack your bags. But we should allow anyone with good intentions to make a better life for themselves.

The problem is with the Left. We all appreciate diverse culture that has made us the Melting Pot but we don’t owe it to everyone else in the world to let everybody just come here and crash the border sneak in and so on. That’s just ridiculous. The Open Borders crowd comes out if Soros and we all know his history don’t we.
Oh yah and our President is doing his job unlike some of his predecessors who are Globalists fir the one world government. Don’t kid yourself Bush and Obama the same globalist team.

American patriotism has been attacked for 20 years now.

Schools taking down American flags
No more pledge of allegiance
Students sent home for wearing American flags
Attacks on Christmas

Not like the kids born and bred from the 80s prior.
Those were some die for your country good ol boys

a reply to: Bloodworth

Apartments telling residents to not hang a flag because it is offensive.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Bloodworth

Apartments telling residents to not hang a flag because it is offensive.

What type of liberal would even have the balls to ask such a thing?

originally posted by: Thecakeisalie
a reply to: Grambler

I'm all for national pride and all, but we need to acknowledge the immigrants who contributed to much of the nations culture.

Most people love Hamburgers and claim that it is an american invention-wrong. It was invented in the US by German migrants from-wait for it-Hamburg. Love spaghetti n' meatballs? who doesn't? americans also claim to have invented it, no-it was the italian immigrants who arrived at Ellis island who arrived in a country without a beef scarcity. Chinese food? that question needs no answer. NASA would never had won the space race if it wasn't for operation paperclip, where German scientists influenced the future science type guys to put the first man on the moon.

The next time someone wants to build a wall then eat a taco, fajita or burrito then they deserve a clothesline from hell. I agree with Trump on one idea-our country, our rules and if you don't abide by our rules...pack your bags. But we should allow anyone with good intentions to make a better life for themselves.

The “wall” everyone gets wound up about is, and always has been, to prevent ILLEGAL immigration. There are very few who deny the important contributions of legal immigrants to the benefit of the US.