The most consequential decision of the Trump Presidency Saudi Arabia

a reply to: Fallingdown

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to portray Iran as a paragon of virtue.

The situation in Yemen is very complex but Iran's presence there isn't enough to justify the atrocities committed by the Saudi's in the country.
The Shia'a in Yemen have been fighting IS, Al-Qaeda, the Yemeni Army and Saudi troops.
Saudi actions have resulted in the deaths of up to 100,000 people.

If Iran had been responsible for such actions we would be at war with them now.

I've got no magic solutions....but I do know current US/UK etc policies are hypocritical and morally obscene.
Is there another solution?
I don't know....but I'd like to think that greater minds and more influential people than I were actively looking for them.....but somehow I think not.

This is the least consequential decision Trump can make as far as I am concerned. Let others be who they are even if we don’t agree with them. Frankly, this is not something that will make a difference to me or my family.

so the general conclusion = USA and his allies can do freely everything GOD had forbidden..and are never ever to be blameb for any crime in war and peace

! think end of discussion

originally posted by: ressiv
so the general conclusion = USA and his allies can do freely everything GOD had forbidden..and are never ever to be blameb for any crime in war and peace

! think end of discussion

Who made you the world’s moral authority?

Live your own best life and stop trying to control everyone else.

understand youre confusion of the measurring with 2 standards… just for politic reasons...wat have all "terrorist country's"done wat western country's not done already?
a reply to: Freeborn

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: ressiv
so the general conclusion = USA and his allies can do freely everything GOD had forbidden..and are never ever to be blameb for any crime in war and peace

! think end of discussion

Who made you the world’s moral authority?

Live your own best life and stop trying to control everyone else.

lolll you tell me its different

a reply to: Fallingdown

That sounds a well reasoned position too , but the President has to factor in the public opinion

What they're advising Trump must be that he can't neglect his/the US need to retain some moral authority , both at home and abroad.

People in general don't soak up the idea of a forensic pathologist literally butchering someone to pieces inside a consulate as being an ok thing to happen . Especially when there's clearly evidence -

so if Trump waives this chance to do something concrete about SA's record his neglect of correct morality won't be forgotten that easily .

originally posted by: DoctorBluechip
a reply to: Fallingdown

...Especially when there's clearly evidence -

Can someone point this out to me? Have we received the video/audio yet? Or any of what Turkey alleges?

a reply to: loam

Fair point - I'm going on the fact that what Turkey stated it has, has been taken very seriously by the US administration , and the cold feet that the international financiers suddenly got . On the other hand Lagarde of the IMF is still 'in' until such time as 'out' becomes necessary .

'Apple watch' , 'video and audio' and links from other threads describe what's coming out - who , how , when etc .
Apparently the guy doing the bonesawing told the others present he likes to listen to music while doing that job and advised them to do the same

Meanwhile the consulate general house is being searched today , and he himself has fled back to SA already

originally posted by: loam

originally posted by: DoctorBluechip
a reply to: Fallingdown

...Especially when there's clearly evidence -

Can someone point this out to me? Have we received the video/audio yet? Or any of what Turkey alleges?

I agree, anyone that trust Erdogan r CNN Turk should really re-examine their position.

CNN sold CNN Turk to a personal friend of Erdogan and it is now state media .

originally posted by: Fallingdown
When making this decision everyone needs to consider the elephant in the room .

Iran

Hmm, last I checked we have strict sanction on Iran... For having a government that Saudi Arabia closely resembles. (not in structure, but end results.)

So I know what you're going to say next, Iran is a threat to the west.

That's why they took those pages out of the 9/11 report, because it was about Iran right?

a reply to: loam

After the reported 'confession', SA EXPLICITLY denied knowledge or responsibility of the murder, calling it "baseless". So that reporting was obvious wrong

The reporting was that they were preparing to confirm the death of Khashoggi. The reporting/sources could have been wrong but then again, they may have changed course or it could still be forthcoming — they might even have floated the idea themselves to gauge the reaction to the possibility.

For me it seems like this whole thing screams against a rush to judgement

We certainly should not rush to judgement on anything with stakes this high but Trump should also learn some tact. Specifically, repeatedly saying that King Salman has personally denied any knowledge of anything is... not great either.

He should go with something like, "We're very concerned. This is a very serious allegation and we're doing everything possible to get to the truth of the matter. I'm monitoring the situation closely."

That's all that needs to be said. He's made statements like it but then he has to muck it up with this all this "but he denies it" bull#, floating the "rogue killers" narrative and rambling about how important the US-Saudi relationship with is to the point of actually saying that the US needs Saudi Arabia.

You're right that Turkey and Saudi Arabia are both bad actors though and Turkish motivations for blaming the Saudis should not be disregarded but so far it's not looking good for Saudi denials.

1. His fiance was outside. There's video of him going in. The Saudis confirmed that he'd entered the consulate but initially claimed he left unharmed. The video of the same entrance does not show him coming out and he has not been heard from since entering.

2. Early in the AM of that day, Oct 2, a group of Saudis flew into Istanbul on two private planes. This hasn't been denied by the Saudis but al-Arabiya (station founded/owned by relatives of the Saudi royal family) reported that the men were "tourists."

Turkey has released stills from CCTV footage showing at least one of the planes and the Saudi men going through security at the airport. They also released scans of their passports.

NYT has independently verified the identities of most of the men:

ISTANBUL — One of the suspects identified by Turkey in the disappearance of the Saudi dissident Jamal Khashoggi was a frequent companion of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman — seen disembarking from airplanes with him in Paris and Madrid and photographed standing guard during his visits this year to Houston, Boston and the United Nations.

Three others are linked by witnesses and other records to the Saudi crown prince’s security detail.

A fifth is a forensic doctor who holds senior positions in the Saudi Interior Ministry and medical establishment, a figure of such stature that he could be directed only by a high-ranking Saudi authority.

The New York Times has confirmed independently that at least nine of 15 suspects identified by Turkish authorities worked for the Saudi security services, military or other government ministries. One of them, Maher Abdulaziz Mutreb, was a diplomat assigned to the Saudi Embassy in London in 2007, according to a British diplomatic roster. He traveled extensively with the crown prince, perhaps as a bodyguard.

Turkish officials would also have flight plans and apparently its known the two hotels the men checked into after arriving. There's also apparently video of a convoy of six vehicles arriving and departing the consulate, including footage of boxes being loaded into the black van.

3. The Turkish government is claiming to have audio of the events inside the consulate. This is the latest from NYT reporting on leaks in Turkish media (which they point out correctly is tightly controlled by Erdogan's regime):

Audio Offers Gruesome Details of Jamal Khashoggi Killing, Turkish Official Says

ISTANBUL — His killers were waiting when Jamal Khashoggi walked into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul two weeks ago. They severed his fingers and later beheaded and dismembered him, according to details from audio recordings described by a senior Turkish official on Wednesday.

Mr. Khashoggi was dead within minutes, and within two hours the killers were gone, the recordings suggested.

After he was shown into the office of the Saudi consul, Mohammad al-Otaibi, the agents seized Mr. Khashoggi almost immediately and began to beat and torture him, eventually cutting off his fingers, the senior Turkish official said.

“Do this outside. You will put me in trouble,” Mr. al-Otaibi, the consul, told them, according to the Turkish official and a report in the Turkish newspaper Yeni Safak, both citing audio recordings said to have been obtained by Turkish intelligence.

“If you want to live when you come back to Arabia, shut up,” one of the agents replied, according to both the official and the newspaper.

As they cut off Mr. Khashoggi’s head and dismembered his body, a doctor of forensics who had been brought along for the dissection and disposal had some advice for the others, according to the senior Turkish official.

Listen to music, he told them, as he put on headphones himself. That was what he did to ease the tension when doing such work, the official said, describing the contents of the audio recording.

I would assume that the US is being provided all this. There should also be flight records/passport scans/etc from wherever those planes originated from and departed to.

We shouldn't rush to judgement but also doesn't look very good for the Saudi denials. Imo, the reporting/prevailing speculation is probably pretty close to what will happen: the Saudis will eventually throw somebody under the bus and claim that it was a "rogue" general or something and that it was an interrogation that got out of hand.

a reply to: DoctorBluechip
ROFL, this is hardly even registers as in the top ten of most influential things. Evidence has as of yet to even be presented, only claimed.

If it came from a cnn panel, you can be assured The are just parrotting a broken record.

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: loam
We shouldn't rush to judgement but also doesn't look very good for the Saudi denials. Imo, the reporting/prevailing speculation is probably pretty close to what will happen: the Saudis will eventually throw somebody under the bus and claim that it was a "rogue" general or something and that it was an interrogation that got out of hand.

I don't really disagree with this as a possibility.

But it does bother me how many in the media, as well as politicians on both sides of the aisle, rushed to an immediate judgement.

I'm standing by for more...

We shall see.

a reply to: Freeborn

Those are all good positions.

But you’re missing one point about government atrocities. After the attempted coup Erdogan shut down opposition media and imprisoned 160 journalist .

Kind of doubt all of them made it out alive .

It’s not about who gets their head chopped off. It’s about the mainstream media’s narrative on who had their head chopped off and how it can benefit them.

Putin did it in the past. Thankfully I can’t remember one after 2015 or the liberal media would have used it their political advantage .

People in the Middle East have been chopping each other‘s heads off for over 1000 years. I don’t suspect they will change anytime in the near future .

originally posted by: worldstarcountry
a reply to: DoctorBluechip
ROFL, this is hardly even registers as in the top ten of most influential things. Evidence has as of yet to even be presented, only claimed.

If it came from a cnn panel, you can be assured The are just parrotting a broken record.

Ya . The word was 'consequential' . The op title came from the cnn link in the op and was a statement from the mini-vids that go with the article .
The claim (which they say his advisers are making) is imo over the fact that Trump/US moral authority is ebbing away in public opinion worldwide , and that what Trump decides to do about this Khashoggi episode will either make things worse or he can choose (somehow) to save himself/the US from disaster in terms of the potential for ongoing
and compounded loss of moral authority . In my understandings then moral authority (or at least the outward appearance of it ) has historically been key to the continued power of governing institutions (eg the church) . It goes with the notion that people tend to accept laws and governence which carry some origins in moral authority and conversely they ignore law they see as made for immoral purposes . Very simple , but subtly a very powerful force . Similarly Islamic governance , Buddhist and Hindu legalities and governance too all run along the
exact same lines .

Moral authority is authority premised on principles, or fundamental truths, which are independent of written, or positive, laws. As such, moral authority necessitates the existence of and adherence to truth. Because truth does not change, the principles of moral authority are immutable or unchangeable, although as applied to individual circumstances the dictates of moral authority for action may vary due to the exigencies of human life. These principles, which can be of metaphysical and/or religious nature, are considered normative for behavior, whether they are or are not also embodied in written laws,[1] and even if the community is ignoring or violating them

What is an example of a more consequential decision that Trump has had to make so far ?

a reply to: Fallingdown

People in the Middle East have been chopping each other‘s heads off for over 1000 years. I don’t suspect they will change anytime in the near future .

But only one sovereign government has connections to the only first strike against the US, and on American soil since pearl harbor. (SA)

Politicians don't care who is our enemy, only appeasing those who pay for their campaigns. Hence neither party have gone after Saudi Arabia, and the next Democrat president won't be any better.

The puppets will sure as hell ignore it, deflect it, or simply ignore it.

a reply to: DoctorBluechip
The only consequences that should matter is after there have been court proceedings, a well deliberated trial or plea deal, and a specific defendant (s) convicted . Nobody is even technically guilty of anything yet, in any three courts of the states inolved, or an ICC case, Security council discussion or anything. I prefer to not take kangaroo court seriously.

Business will continue. Erdogan is a treacherous dog, he may have put his intelligence apparatus in charge of it all. Saudis so corrupt their hiring practices are likely shambles. Turkish intelligence builds up a cell in the Saudi consulate. Agents disappear the poor sap. Fixed up the video with hacked software. Saudis get setup due to their own lack of discipline and don't e dilligence.

SAUDI ARABIA WIRES U.S. $100 MILLION AS TRUMP PROCLAIMS M.B.S. INNOCENT

www.vanityfair.com...

Nothing to see here, folks. Just corruption (and state-sponsored terror) all the way to the bottom.

a reply to: 0zzymand0s
And again, the Turks fail to present anything to corroborate their "story".
Want to win a moral victory?? Leak the damn audio fake ass liars from Turkish intelligence with their Russian handlers.

The world witnessed Saddam hang, gadaffi get tortured, that pearlman fella lose his head, 9/11 ..... But they won't release some alleged audio a as of yet fictional story for what? Our sensitivities? Decency?? We can just take their word for it??

It's an Eastern bloc sham story. Turkey's farewell may be sooner than they hoped.