Islamic Terror boss urges west to "respect Islam"

Actually, paperclip, the Qoran does have lines that say that: And yes, I have Muslim friends...

-wD

Originally posted by Kinja


Go ahead and put them in context for us you have our utmost attention,

Well, if you bother to read what it says right before the verse you quoted, you will see the following:

[5:44] We have sent down the Torah, containing guidance and light. Ruling in accordance with it were the Jewish prophets, as well as the rabbis and the priests, as dictated to them in GOD's scripture, and as witnessed by them. Therefore, do not reverence human beings; you shall reverence Me instead. And do not trade away My revelations for a cheap price. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the disbelievers.

[5:46] Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.

[5:47] The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD's revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the wicked.

[5:48] Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed.

[5:49] You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations to you. Do not follow their wishes, and beware lest they divert you from some of GOD's revelations to you. If they turn away, then know that GOD wills to punish them for some of their sins. Indeed, many people are wicked.

[5:50] Is it the law of the days of ignorance that they seek to uphold? Whose law is better than GOD's for those who have attained certainty?

[5:51] O you who believe, do not take certain Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

I think that the meaning is very clear here. Each group have their revelations to rule in accordance with them, but each have to respect the diversity of revelations. Those who "uphold the law of the days of ignorance" are the wicked, and not those who rule in acordance with God's revelations.
So, then to the verse you quoted, it is clear that it refers to those who do not respect other faiths and wish to harm others. This is clarified again, if you read just a bit further down:

[5:57] O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture who mock and ridicule your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence GOD, if you are really believers.

Again, it sets the guideline not to befriend those who mock the religion ( absolutely no word there about killing, enslaving or converting anyone, it is just about picking allies and friends. Of course I'm not gonna be best buddy with someone who mocks me all the time and calls me an idiot because of what I believe). Also, note the use of terms "recipients of previous scripture" ( as shown above, those are Christians and Jews) and separate from that the use of term "disbelievers" (obviously not refering to christians and jews with that, as they are already mentioned above).

Oh, and I don't even want to start with putting everything in historical context, regarding of when and why and to whom the certain chapters were revealed, what was the situation back then and so on. That would take a whole book, and not just one post on ATS.

On a side note: I am not mocking Jesus with my signature, it is called satirical humor and it is actually quite true. Jesus' one-liners like "love thy neighbour" are as good as his tricks

I commend your effort to put it in context, and you did a great job, but I reject the Idea that we must compete in a "game" for God. I reject The idea that the Koran is without Flaw, when so clearly you have displayed for me that it is unclear in its meaning and thus FLAWED. I reject that God would give the laws to Moses then Allow Mohammed to break them consistently under the guise of a new "game" told only to Mohammed by the Pagan moon god in the desert. I reject that Muslim world, must perform wuduu, then turn to face the Ka'Bah for prayer, while the Ka'Bah is built out of a moon rock, it is a false Idol. As Mohammed is a FALSE PROPHET!

Also: There were no "tricks", Jesus healed lepers and raised the dead. And according to Muslims ascended into heaven ALIVE!

You do Mock. There is nothing funny about it.

I'm currently studying Islam in school. I can honestly say that I've never felt like I was ever told the 'truth' about religion until now. I was raised Catholic and never understood how a 'human' could stand between God and myself.

If we are all created equal, then why do I have to confess to a 'Man of the Cloth'? Why would God send Jesus as his only son? Were the other prophets not enough?

I admit that I still have so much to learn, but I have come to realize that these islamic (lower case 'i' because I'm using the word as a satire and not the holy 'Islam', since these figures claim to be Islamic and clearly are not) terrorist organizations.

What makes Jesus special over Muhammed? I believe they were equal. I believe Christians made Jesus out to be the 'Son of God', and not himself. Many have their own opinions about Jesus (not to be hashed out on this thread), but I never could buy into the 'Son of God' claim. I think many stories in the Bible have been embellished, especially the NT.

If you would just study a little bit about the Islamic religion I think you will find that it almost mirrors Christianity (except for Jesus).

I'm not Islamic, and don't plan on converting, I just want to share my thoughts on this.

I live in the same town as the two Muslim Imans that were arrested last year for "plotting the purchase of shoulder fire missiles". In fact, they live a few streets away from me. I was so filled w/disgust when this was aired in the media. I immediately pointed fingers and wanted no muslims anywhere near me nor my neighborhood.

I'm just asking a few of you 'like-minded' (like-minded to what I believed before) ATSers to check it out. Read a little about the Islamic religion and culture, you may be just as surprised as me.

Here's a place to start:

Islam Expained

Paperclip, seems you know quite a bit about the Islamic religion. I'd love to pick your brain sometime.

I dont respect Islam because Islam doesnt respect me.

But I respect Osama Bin Laden for at least targeting specifically who he had a problem with rather then blowing up a US City full of innocent people who have no say in US foreign policy. HE did target the World Trade Center (The one's who said were stiffling his people), and he did attack the Pentagon (the one who was likely the driving force behind any action taken against people overseas, or the enforcers).

So I dont look at him as a total terrorist nutcase. He made a calculated attack that signified what he beleived in.

But now Islam and Al Quada are saying that they are going to start targeting US Citizens because we are somehow to blame for the Pentagon, the White House or anybody else.

If you asked me what George Bush did today I would not have a clue. I dont think I should be blamed for things that I mostly dont follow on a day to day basis. And if you asked me what it was like in the Middle East, I have no idea. What does Osama expect?

And really there is just too much I dont know. What was our involvement in the Afghan - Soviet war. Did we betray Osama somehow? Did we turn our back on them? Why did we have sanctions, what was our reason? Why does Osama feel that Afghanistan deserves our respect as a country besides the fact that is where he is from? What kind of people live in Afghanistan and how well organized is their government? What kind of morals do they have? What is the history between the US and Afghanistan? What dont we agree on specifically? And what has ever happened between us that can be considered bad blood?

Osama, there is just too much I dont know.

And for Osama's message to me, I am not going to take his side. Because he threatened me and the people I care about.
If he had presented his case then maybe he can come up with more support.

I beleive in knowing the facts and having my morals make decisions. If the Islams are going to be unreasonable and then demand respect, I will not listen.

I sometimes wonder that maybe because the Koran is the last revision of the Bible that muslims think its perfect, and the answer to all their problems. Perhaps thats why they are so dedicated to their cause (the jihadists).

They refuse to give any other religion a chance but their own because Islam is supposivedly "the fixed and revised" version of Judiasm and Christianity, therefore it MUST be better, and they MUST be right.

Originally posted by Kinja
I commend your effort to put it in context, and you did a great job, but I reject the Idea that we must compete in a "game" for God. I reject The idea that the Koran is without Flaw... blah, blah..... I reject .... blah, blah... I reject that Muslim world blah, blah....... As Mohammed is a FALSE PROPHET!

Oh, thats fine, you do not have to accept anything. I do not want to convert you . You posted a common misconception about Islam and Qur'an, I refuted it by quoting sentences before and after the one you quoted. I think it is pretty clear in its meaning. You do not have to believe in it, that is your choice.
However, judging by everything you posted in this and in other threads, it seems that you know very little about Islam. You talk about things you have very little knowledge of, hence the misconceptions and false information you post all the time.

Note: "blah, blah" I inserted into the quote is to avoid excessive quoting and quote only things that help me make a point

Paperclip, seems you know quite a bit about the Islamic religion. I'd love to pick your brain sometime.

I am Muslim, thats why I know so much

Here is an interesting statement from Prince El Hassan Bin Talal of Jordan, President of the "Club of Rome":



"Islam does not tolerate the irresponsible destructiveness that is terrorism. Such irreligious acts run counter to Islamic practice, as this book will make clear; just as they run counter to the practice of Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, and indeed all other faiths of mankind. Muslims have been vociferous in their condemnation of terrorism, arguing that terrorist acts violate Islamic law. The Islamic scholar Shaykh Zaki Badawi argues that the atrocities of September 11, 2001 are a violation of Islamic law and ethics. Neither the people, who were killed or injured, nor the properties that were destroyed, qualified as legitimate targets in any system of law, especially Islamic law. Sayyed Abdel-Majid al-Khoei has described the attacks as "a criminal and barbaric act removed from every moral code and from every religious and humanitarian principle."

Read the whole statement on Club of Rome website

www.clubofrome.org...


It is good to hear a positive statement about terrorism from a Muslim, but I wonder what his private thoughts are.






.

EDIT


[edit on 24-2-2005 by asala]

Originally posted by paperclip
Oh, thats fine, you do not have to accept anything. I do not want to convert you

. You posted a common misconception about Islam and Qur'an, I refuted it by quoting sentences before and after the one you quoted. I think it is pretty clear in its meaning. You do not have to believe in it, that is your choice.
However, judging by everything you posted in this and in other threads, it seems that you know very little about Islam. You talk about things you have very little knowledge of, hence the misconceptions and false information you post all the time.

Again, your only argument is "all bad things about islam are lies."
I guess if you live by some screwball out in california's watered down happy happy joy joy version of Islame, its easy to point the finger at the middle east and claim all the bad stuff is lies. You are the one being lied to.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
As much as I would like to disagree with Kinja, I can't. We see the incrementalism as Islamic radicalism grows in Europe. We see the conflicts in Asia, Africa and pretty much any area that Islam is expanding into.

Everywhere Islam is, someone is killing somebody because of it. Rather than adapting to the world, Islam seems to want the world to adapt to it. Rather than change itself to take in new knowledge and new needs in the world, Islam would throw all progress aside and take us all back into the 6th Century. They would have us all be slaves to a myth.

You stated the situation perfectly. I voted you for "Way Above ..."

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die. But the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytising faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.

-Winston Churchill

Originally posted by paperclip
MadGrimbo, Phoenix quoted Qur'an implying that it is the source of extremism. I refuted that.

There is a difference between what Qur'an says and political Islam... actually several forms of political Islam including its most violent expression: Al-Qaeda and other separatist groups in various countries.

Right, just like there was a difference in what communist dictatorships claimed to be - "Peoples Democratic Republics" - and what they actually were - brutal dictatorships. I see no difference with these so-called "islamic republics".

my understanding of islam is....it's a fake, a fraud. mohammed a classic competitor desired a religion to rival that of the jews and the christians.[ both religions dismissed mohammed and he didn't like that ]

there are two legends I've heard of , both involved kidnapping , a jewish man of letters , or equvilent . objective, have him write a religious book incorporating all that was known by arab lore, culture , etc, and pagan idol worship , into a book that would rival the Bible. [ I can't prove it , but I'd say it was very possible ]

mohammed heard voices of the jins. and he said, there were good jins, and bad jins , and sometimes I can't tell the difference. [ there is speculation as to the medical condition of mohammed , based on his comments and of those who verified his behaviors and wrote about him.]
some people scoff at such a diagnosis as being absurd. but mohammed had classic epileptic siezures , they were documented. the speculation comes in about what effect they had on mohammeds perceptions of "his visions"

there is more...but I have to go to bed...

I have already stated that I will never respect islam, and I wish to change that stance at this time.

I will respect islam when it's ashes have been scattered over islams ruined earth and it is no more. Then I will say "I respect you for being a dedicated adversary, misled and misguided, you blindly followed moohamad islam's path to the destruction of all your peoples."

Got a problem imam? Bring it on ... I know where YOU live too.

Originally posted by toasted
my understanding of islam is....it's a fake, a fraud. mohammed a classic competitor desired a religion to rival that of the jews and the christians.[ both religions dismissed mohammed and he didn't like that ]

there are two legends I've heard of , both involved kidnapping , a jewish man of letters , or equvilent . objective, have him write a religious book incorporating all that was known by arab lore, culture , etc, and pagan idol worship , into a book that would rival the Bible. [ I can't prove it , but I'd say it was very possible ]

mohammed heard voices of the jins. and he said, there were good jins, and bad jins , and sometimes I can't tell the difference. [ there is speculation as to the medical condition of mohammed , based on his comments and of those who verified his behaviors and wrote about him.]
some people scoff at such a diagnosis as being absurd. but mohammed had classic epileptic siezures , they were documented. the speculation comes in about what effect they had on mohammeds perceptions of "his visions"

there is more...but I have to go to bed...

well the same is to be said for christianity. ask any pagan what the christmass tree represents and you'll see.

sorry to puke all over you PC FOLKS but,

it is my understanding that the koran, is a fake. [ not that the whores who held office in the vatican, weren't equally guilty of perverting the word of God ]

the koran ,inspired by mohammed and put together by a, kidnapped and threatened with death, jewish or orthodox "man of letters", the only kind of person who could write such a book.
the koran is full of jewish numerologies that an arab would NOT have ordinary knowledge of . [ having those numerologies in there, is a HUGE red flag.]
and the arabs of ancient mecca and medina were illiterate. they did not have the skills necessary to write such a book. and so was mohammed...he was illiterate too.
that's NOT 2 say he was ignorant or stupid, cuz from all that was written, it appears that he was quite intelligent.
mohammed also appears to have suffered from epileptic seizures....and he also heard voices of the jins ! " there were good jins and bad jins, and sometimes I cannot tell the difference " !
would a man who could not tell the difference between the GOOD jins and the BAD jins, be allowed to testify in a court of law, let alone be the author/contributor of a so-called holy book ?
I'm sorry, but I need more than what the Koran provides, in order for me to re-consider my position on its' validity as the WORD OF GOD. cuz it is totally inconsistent with the christian bible !

arafat believed Jesus was a palestinian muslim terrorist !

and speaking of that A-hole arafat...during a speech , at the church of the nativity, behind arafat ,hung a sign on the wall in arabic " kill the jews on saturday kill the christians on sunday !"
this is a religion of peace ?

and wtf were the arabic translators doing at cnn and nbc , and msnbc , etc... ? this was NEVER pointed out by the MASS MEDIA ! EVER !

can you say...obfuscation ? hmmmmm? ok...how about...lies by omission...

land of the free my ass...