Islamic Terror boss urges west to "respect Islam"

What have they done to earn respect?

Seriously.

Exactly

These losers can kiss a certain part of my anatomy that shall remain nameless because I dont believe in swearing in polite society (at least not in a language people cam understand) I hate fundies of all stripes and I wouldnt lose much sleep if all the fundies in the world killed each other off and left us more civilized people out of their little spat. Unfortunately fundies have bad habt of mucking about in other peoples business unless firmly put out to pasture which unfortunately people are all to rarely willing to do.

I would invite belivers in the Koran to elaborate on the meaning of the passages below.

First, a few general clarifications about Qur'an.
As you all know, Mohammad was just a messenger, acording to islamic belief, and Qur'an is a book from God. The "we" in Koran refers to God, not mohamad, not muslims, not humans. "We" in Qur'an is God (and angels with him in some cases). It is something every single Muslim on this planet is very aware of, but the outsiders often are not, hence the confusion.

There are two kinds of justice in Islam, the one enforced by God and the one enforced by men. Only God can punish entire tribes, nations, countries. ( compare with Bible acounts of Sodom, Gomorah, etc, etc, horrible descriptions of mass murder commited by God).

Another important thing is that Muslims do not view other religions as separate from theirs. It is all one, all a continuous revelation of God's word to Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, and countless other prophets. Muslims believe in all of them, not just Mohammad.

[2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."


So now to verses:

"Koran 17:16-17
When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet transgress; so that Allah's word is proved true against them: then we destroy them utterly. How many generations have we destroyed after Noah? And enough is thy Lord to note and see the Sins of his servants "

Note what I said above. This is divine punishment for those who transgress.

"Koran 8:37
In order that Allah may seperate the impure from the pure, Put All the impure ones (Non-Muslim), one on top of the another in a Heap and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost "

Again, God's punishment AFTER death. It clearly refers to Hell and not something in this life. From which site did you quote this? I am asking because of "non-muslim" added into the text. It does not say so in original, not even in the translation you linked to. Have you added it yourself? Did you copy/paste it from somewhere? The right translation would be separate "the good ones from bad ones", no further deffinition, no mention of muslim, non-muslim.
By now, everyone should be aware of the fact that muslims separate people into believers and non-believers. Christians and jews are believers too, people of the book, receivers of previous scripture.
Just like Christianity, Islam promisses fires of Hell for unbelievers too. Only in Christianity hell is for all who do not accept Christ as Son of God as described in Bible. In Islam Hell is for those who generaly do not believe in a deity, single God, and do evil on Earth.

"Koran 21:11
How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their inequities, setting up in their place other peoples"

Again, it refers to divine punishment that occured in distant past.

"Koran 2:8-10
In their (Non-Muslims) hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease and grievous is the penalty they will incur, because they are false."

Again, the "non-muslim" added into text. Again false.

That part talks about religious hypocrites generaly, I quote:

[2:8] Then there are those who say, "We believe in GOD and the Last Day," while they are not believers.
[2:9] In trying to deceive GOD and those who believe, they only deceive themselves without perceiving.
[2:10] In their minds there is a disease. Consequently, GOD augments their disease. They have incurred a painful retribution for their lying.

Note the emphasis on "God" again, divine intervention and punishment.

Several verses you quoted again have added words into the original, like implying that faith actually means islam. It does not exist in original and it is misinformation at its best. I am surprised that it comes from a moderator of this site.

Most of the verses you quoted refer to Hell, life after death and divine punishment, which is something that exists in all major religions. The concept of Good and Evil, God and Satan, Heaven and Hell, is present everywhere, including Islam, it is nothing new.


"Koran 17:46-47
And we put coverings over their hearts and minds, lest they should understand the Koran, and we put deafness in their ears; when you commemorate your Lord (Allah) and Him alone in the Koran"

hmmmm
I quote the link YOU provided:

45. When thou dost recite the Qur'an, We put, between thee and those who believe not in the Hereafter, a veil invisible:

46. And We put coverings over their hearts (and minds) lest they should understand the Qur'an, and deafness into their ears: when thou dost commemorate thy Lord and Him alone in the Qur'an, they turn on their backs, fleeing (from the Truth).


I think these verses are very clear actually. Note how it says "those who do not believe in the Hereafter", it does not say any particular religion, just unbelievers generaly. It is quite a mystical verse talking about invisible veils and all, but the meaning is quite obvious. Those who do not believe won't really understand the Qur'an, the veil of their own disbelief prevents them from seeing the truth.
I could go into a more mystical aspect of faith here (how the connection between our soul and the Divine is formed), but that would be off topic now. I'll just say that a lot of religions imply that you have to have faith first in order to "see" the evidence of existence of Divine (receiving Holy Spirit by accepting Christ in one example of that). Those who believe understand religious texts differently then those who do not believe.

I run out of time to write more now, there is work to be done, but I shall be back



[edit on 21-2-2005 by paperclip]

Its your want to say no more, but if you have evidence of a muslim country that is ruled by a theocracy, and allows religiouse freedom, please shown me.

Islam is a thinly vieled hatred of all things that oppose it, and for those that say "well christianty was like that in the 1600's!", i will counter that by sayin g that it was way vover 400 years ago, and we have moved on.

We are asked to be tolerant... Islam asks its followers to kill non-muslims.

Im sorry, but i grew up thinking that if you shared and respect others, they would respect you in return.
Respect Islam and allow its spread, and all you get is war. They don't want to intergrate, they want to dominate.

Look at the world today, and tell me thats not true.

"Seperate Islamic states" Thats what they say in all areas of the world Islam is fighting another religion. Seperate states. They don't want to intergrate, they want to dominate, or seperate.

Don't believe me? look at the phillipines, and the trouble the Muslims are causing there, and there goverment was the most tolerant ever of Islam!

It is so easy to quote scripture from the Quran and try to justify your transgressions. To kidnap such noble writtings, twist and distort their peaceful meaning into such grotesque blabbering is surly a farce beyond anything that can possibly be an insult to God. Whether you are a believer or not, anyone claiming a place in civilized society should be alarmed by such total disregard for human life. It is your human right to exist. We have free will so that we may use it. It is what separates us from the ape. Free will to live as we wish, worship whom we wish and the right to raise and nurture our families. There is no greater gift that God gives to a man or women than a child. You teach this child hatred, teach them that muder brings forth a great reward and set them upon innocent society, you have spit in the face of whatever Deity you call God (Alluah). The Chinese believe that there are many different hells. There must be a special Hell for anyone
that convinces impressionable minds that there is a heavenly reward for cold blooded murder. Nothing westerners have done nor anything ever done in the name of religion justifies terror or sucicide bombings. It is a sick
society that contrives such a thing. It is a completely mad society that condones it. It is a sad state of affairs when such evil demands respect.
You and your kind have a just reward coming, but I wouldn't count to much on the milk and honey.

MadGrimbo, Phoenix quoted Qur'an implying that it is the source of extremism. I refuted that.

There is a difference between what Qur'an says and political Islam... actually several forms of political Islam including its most violent expression: Al-Qaeda and other separatist groups in various countries.

Unrepresentative Sample Fallacy

Those are the first words that come to my mind when I see arguments condemning all Muslims and advocating war against all of them.

The Unrepresentative Sample Fallacy demonstrates the error of reaching conclusions based on samples that do not accurately represent the whole. I think I am seeing some of that in this thread.

The primary reason I cannot agree with blanket condemnation of all Muslims is that it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me.

If some people are not out to get you, and just want to go peacefully about their lives, why would you want to attack them?

If the percentage of Muslims that are “evil” is anything less than 100%, then advocating attacks upon them for simply being Muslims is to advocate attacks against people who are not being aggressive.

I think that's wrong.

The overwhelmingly huge majority of Muslims I'm aware of don't want any trouble with anybody. But the small minority that do work out mathematically to be a pretty serious number.

We cannot ignore their attacks upon us and we must do everything within our power to prevent future attacks. Nothing more, nothing less.

If someone is taking shots at us or preparing to do so, then I have no problem whatsoever with using whatever force is necessary to put a stop to that nonsense.

But if someone isn't out to hurt us, we damn sure shouldn't be out to hurt them.

Last I checked, no self-respecting American would ever suggest otherwise.

Your opinion may vary.

Oh i totaly agree paperclip,
its just that on this Earth there is no nation of Muslims that are tolerant, that respect others, or who uphold peoples rights.

I was on an exercise in Saudi, and these thugs ( Religiouse Police) bea the hell out ofthis young lad for being on the streets. Our saudi Army major (translator and very helpful guide)told us to drive past, and that the boy deserved his beating for not being at prayer......

The women, well, i was appalled, total humiliation and degragation, and a medic attached to us was spat at because she had a short sleeved cammo top on... no im sorry, i've seen it for myself, and its not nice. The fact that the Saudi royal family sit at the top of the tree, and lord it over every one else, just makes things worse.

Bet you never knew that there are slums in saudi? no? they are filled with Philippinos and other migrant workers. Avoid saudi, its an extremist hell hole.

Originally posted by Heartagram
As much as I want to counter these anti-Islamic feelings with other religions with the same kind of extremism sect,I won't.Ignorance of the idea that every religion in the world has its extremism sect is truly intolerable.Read the old testament,torah,koran or what have you of any religions,you'll see my point.Furthermore,taking out passages without reading everything won't give you the big picture people.To understand someone's faith,you have to see the big picture.

Criticising a whole group because the acts of few is undeniably childish.

As long as your ignorance towards the understanding of religion remains,I shall speak no more.

Sounds like you are justifying the present with the sins of others in the past. There is NO DOUBT that Mohammed was a pedophile, robber, and murderer, it is obvious that his actions resonate through Islame in the most devout fundamentalist Muslimes. Muslims who consider themselves moderate have no voice in such bastions of the False Prophet as Iran and Saudi Arabia. Even in places like Indonesia they threaten VIOLENCE when the Idea of another religion is introduced.

If you do not like the dirt within your house... clean it. Do not cry when someone does it for you.

Originally posted by Kinja
A huge stumbling block is the wides spread liberal belief that all religions are essentially the same. So if one religion is good and just then all are good and just. This idea that Islam is a religion of peace is nonsense. Everything you people in the west are and have, Islam seeks to destroy. Islam is 10x as Bad as the KKK. Probably worse. Doubters need to tune in to www.memri.org. Go get educated. www.memri.org.

If you don't think that christianity came from judeisim, and islam came from christianity, then you are lost.

It is THEIR kind of ignorance added to YOUR kind of ignorance that got us all in this mess in the first place.

ANYONE who uses religion as an excuse to KILL is a EXTREMIST, islam, christian, satanist, jew, anything.

Do you think Jesus would want you to kill Muslims? Didn't Jesus say it is better to turn the other cheek than to resort to violence? Then again Jesus was a liberal.

Sometimes I wonder if you christians have ever even read the bible.

Originally posted by Wgatenson
ANYONE who uses religion as an excuse to KILL is a EXTREMIST, islam, christian, satanist, jew, anything.

Who is using their religion to kill people?

Do you think Jesus would want you to kill Muslims? Didn't Jesus say it is better to turn the other cheek than to resort to violence? Then again Jesus was a liberal.

The Liberal of then would most definitely be termed, Radical Conservative today. Ideology is not a mathematical equation. You cannot make sush comparisons and expect any level of credibility.

Sometimes I wonder if you christians have ever even read the bible.

Jesus did not dismiss any of the laws God gave to Moses. Didn't Jesus physically force the money changers out from the house of God?

Mark 11:15 - And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;

Appearantly they didn't respond to talking and only became aware of Jesus' displeaseure when he "overthrew" their tables.

It appears sir, you know the Bible only as it is watered down and taught to children.

[edit on 21-2-2005 by Kinja]

The whole story of Islam as an intolerant, hateful religion is untrue. As has been said already, the actions of the few have served to stain the many. There are radicals amongst many religions and I could mention groups, more extreme than the Amish, within Christianity.
One thought I would like to open up is this: the muslim world has not sought to occupy/run/exploit America or any other western country. It is us who need them, not they who need us.
Do you really think that the events of the past years would have taken place had oil not become such a valuable/scarce commodity, and that had those events not occured, that there would be this anti-muslim feeling developing? I appreciate this is probably another topic but feel that the two issues are linked. That is to say, one has led to the other.
I believe that all countries have a right to sovereignty and to structure their societies in the manner they wish. We are not all one culture, we do not all subscribe to American ideals and, lets face it, who's to say what's the right way and the wrong one?

Originally posted by JG0001
The whole story of Islam as an intolerant, hateful religion is untrue.

Please give me the addresse to a Christian Church in Saudi Arabia, maybe you have heard of Saudi Arabia... Christianity is against the law there. Its one thing to talk smack about a religion its another to lock its member in prison. Get educated!

"""islam as a religion is just as "bad" as any other religion.
you cannot judge the entire religion "and culture on actions of few men. """

Yeah, the vation church online shop providers cutting knifes for beheading people, it providers christian suicde vests for christian martyers, it provies rope for kidnapping non christians. It's also provides bowels, for the ritual beheadings of non muslims for the christian god. It's also providers suit cast bomb's for blowing up airplanes for the christian god.

Yeah i agree, Christians and muslims are just as bad as each other.

"""Another important thing is that Muslims do not view other religions as separate from theirs. It is all one, all a continuous revelation of God's word to Adam, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, and countless other prophets. Muslims believe in all of them, not just Mohammad. """

Yeah they believe in them but still only allowed to learn from the words of mohammed. They don't follow the teachings of the bible, because its CORPUTED and mohammed was THE LAST PROHOPT which makes all of GODS past PROHOTS INVAILD!.

Just one prohot of the bible had more common sense then 1000 mohammeds.

The only people that support Islam as peaceful religion is the american government and the american media. They do to this maintain good relationships with TRADING ISLAMIC nations and to distro the preception of the american people.. The people in america don't follow that line, i bet 80% of american believe that Islam is terrorist causing religion.

Islam has already been damaged heavily, the global community, dislikes islam 1000times more then 10 years ago. This is not going to change. Because what happen before, is people never looked into islam before and just assumed it peaceful like christianity and judaism. But ever since sept11, spainish training bombing, beheading of nick berg, killing of children in russia, palastian suicde bombers, arab rapists in australia and europe. This will not change, you can not change the mind's of the global coummnity after this what ever you say, because the action speak louder then words.

Islam is damaged and will not recover, even muslims today feel uncomferable today with it. I suspect some might even be thinking of breaking out of it.

I fear these tapes are used for further justification of western violence against the Middle East than anything else. These tapes only serve to drag out emotions and obviously those living in the Middle East have no hope of being able to compete militarily with western might. So the only thing these tapes do serve is western intentions in that region of the world.

[edit on 21-2-2005 by Frith]

Why are we failing to understand the Muslim mind over this topic?

Because our education system is shot through with humanism. Humanism says "respect everything even if you don't agree with it".

As a result we are trained to respect the muslims right to want the destruction of our society.

Seekerof, whom I respect greatly, is a proponent of the humanist viewpoint in this thread.

We are assuming the silent muslim majority think the way we do, that violence is wrong, that Islam is peaceful, etc. But are we right in our assumptions? The fact that they ARE silent would suggest they are not too uncomfortable with Sharia law in the west, or oppressing christians etc.

Maybe the way we are taught to "trust everyone" and "respect everything" is only leaving us open to maipulation by those who are NOT of the same mindset as ourselves. Sort of like appeasement before WW2, with people hiding from the unpalatable truth.

Humanism and Islam seem to be totally different ideologies, not only incompatable, but humanism has an inherant fatal weakness when it meets a ideology, that proposes domination and conquering its enemies.



[edit on 21-2-2005 by Netchicken]

Originally posted by Netchicken

Humanism and Islam seem to be totally different ideologies, not only incompatable, but humanism has an inherant fatal weakness when it meets a ideology, that proposes domination and conquering its enemies.

[edit on 21-2-2005 by Netchicken]

Humanism is a relgion

When a society support some groups and ban's other, it has agenda and ideology, a relgion. America, is creating a new relgion, for it's people and it's trying to get rid of christianity.

Originally posted by Netchicken
Why are we failing to understand the Muslim mind over this topic?

Because our education system is shot through with humanism. Humanism says "respect everything even if you don't agree with it".

As a result we are trained to respect the muslims right to want the destruction of our society.

Seekerof, whom I respect greatly, is a proponent of the humanist viewpoint in this thread.

We are assuming the silent muslim majority think the way we do, that violence is wrong, that Islam is peaceful, etc. But are we right in our assumptions? The fact that they ARE silent would suggest they are not too uncomfortable with Sharia law in the west, or oppressing christians etc.

Maybe the way we are taught to "trust everyone" and "respect everything" is only leaving us open to maipulation by those who are NOT of the same mindset as ourselves. Sort of like appeasement before WW2, with people hiding from the unpalatable truth.

Humanism and Islam seem to be totally different ideologies, not only incompatable, but humanism has an inherant fatal weakness when it meets a ideology, that proposes domination and conquering its enemies.



[edit on 21-2-2005 by Netchicken]

The Koran holds supremacy in that culture. To speak out would be in violation the authority the Koran holds. Dangerous behavior for sure. ANY muslim will tell you the Koran is without FLAW and is the absolute word of God given to Mohammed. There is no room for doubt.