McDonald's: You buy more from touch-screen kiosks than a person. So expect more kiosks

a reply to: TheRedneck

Remember the Luddites!.
For those who never heard that phrase.

I think the more jobs automation takes from people and more people out of work people will start smashing up those machines in protests I bet Neo Luddites will be a bigger thing in the future.

a reply to: testingtesting

Possibly. People do tend to mess in their own bed.

Smashing up machines that are responsible for a business's business in order to create new jobs is, in one respect, akin to shooting all the employees so they have to hire more people. It never works; all it does is raise prices and get rid of businesses.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: testingtesting
a reply to: TheRedneck

Remember the Luddites!.
For those who never heard that phrase.

I think the more jobs automation takes from people and more people out of work people will start smashing up those machines in protests I bet Neo Luddites will be a bigger thing in the future.

I can see this happening. Crazy # goes down at McDonalds. Earlier this year, a guy tried to hang himself from the rafters in the McDonalds by me.

What will all those liberal art degree holders do now

Im all for automation and Universal Basic Income, people will be able to develop their talents and hobbies instead of being depressed stuck in dead end jobs.

a reply to: NeoSpace

Do you really think places like the USA will give out universal basic income when they do not even do it with healthcare?.
Nope they will make us all kill each other off.
I hope they do bring in universal basic income but I really doubt they will.

If you are against kiosks/self service automation can i ask where you draw the line at technology helping?

Or maybe you hanker after the Amish way of life - i know i do, barring the religious side

People have been protesting this since the industrial revolution with little if any success.

originally posted by: testingtesting
a reply to: TheRedneck

Remember the Luddites!.
For those who never heard that phrase.

I think the more jobs automation takes from people and more people out of work people will start smashing up those machines in protests I bet Neo Luddites will be a bigger thing in the future.

My mother worked as a shop assistant before the days of electronic cash registers. In those days, the assistants would sit at tills, enter the item prices, collect the customer payment in cash, put those in a basket on a string. This would be pulled up to the floor above, where the accountant would calculate the change required. Then the change and receipt would come back down in the same basket.

Now even our supermarkets get the customers to check out their own items using the scanners. I always have to get official approval from a member of staff for my purchases because a bottle of Mountain Dew is now a "restricted item".

There was an X-Files episode a couple of months ago about an automated fast food restaurant. It was great. Definitely the future we can all look forward to.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Yes and it is the future, the Luddites protested it and now that word is a derogatory term.

People seem to be under the false impression that it will just be low paid cashier jobs that will be lost to this tech but actually a whole plethora of jobs will be significantly lost. Such as:

1. Insurance Underwriters And Claims Representatives
2. Bank Tellers And Representatives
3. Financial Analysts
4. Construction Workers
5. Inventory Managers And Stockists
6. Farmers
7. Taxi Drivers
8. Manufacturing Workers
9. Journalists

These are just some of the jobs AI and automated machines can do that many people didnt see coming.
Its not all doom and gloom though. What solutions can govenments provide as a counter measure to the loss of jobs to AI and automation?

“One would be the introduction of a basic income payable to all citizens that would give people independence from work as a means of making a living–and give them more freedom to take risks, such as starting a new business,” says Burton-Cartledge. “Or alternatively, the benefits of automation could be shared by reducing the workweek. If automation means higher productivity, do we need people working 40-hour weeks alongside masses of people who can’t find work?”

What I wonder though, is with so many people out of work and not paying taxes, where will govenments find the money to pay people a basic income? Or the universal basic income I've heard touted about? Aren't most coutries up to their eyeballs in debt as it is?

link

a reply to: surfer_soul

You forgot the self driving trucks.

a reply to: dug88

This sounds like a real good deal for the corporation.

The save paying a human to do one job and find a way to piss off a whole lot of customers at the same time.
I say this because I am sure the reliability will not be there very long for these touch screens. What with all the dirty fingers and little kids beating on them.
You know it will happen, its just a matter of time.

a reply to: surfer_soul

Perhaps some day, but for now:

1. Insurance Underwriters And Claims Representatives

... are already at the mercy of computers that calculate odds and profit margins. Yet, I seriously doubt such high-value transactions as these will be replaced completely by machine any time soon. To err is human; to really make a disastrous mess requires a computer.

2. Bank Tellers And Representatives

ATMs have already accomplished some of this, but when it comes to judging trustworthiness, human intuition is still a necessary component. Plus, many banks around my area are going the opposite direction: realizing that customers still prefer a human touch.

3. Financial Analysts

... are already being replaced by computers.

4. Construction Workers

... cannot at this time be replaced by machines. Construction in many instances is a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants profession. Discrepancies arise during any construction project that require human intelligence to correct.

5. Inventory Managers And Stockists

Target stores already do this. I know; I drove dedicated store deliveries for a while. As each item is scanned at checkout, the information is transmitted in real time to the distribution warehouse. Once a day, this information is read and replacement products are pulled and loaded onto trailers, which are sealed and delivered that night.

I assume WalMart and other department stores do similar inventory.

On the other hand, nothing replaces regular inventory checks, and no machine can handle the conditions experienced during a full store inventory. Manual dexterity is required to scan in items stacked on pegs, or to move shelf items around to ensure all product placed on that shelf is found and scanned. That is well beyond the capability of robotics at this time.

6. Farmers

Living in a farming community where my cousin runs the largest farm around, I assure you that while computers do assist them in managing crop rotations, planting planning, and profit analysis, they are nowhere near changing over to full automation. No AI system in existence that can drive a tractor can also diagnose and repair that tractor while in the field during a breakdown. Neither can AI come anywhere close to judging disease or pest infestations and determining not only the needed solution, but the intensity with which it need be used.

7. Taxi Drivers

I keep hearing about this, but it hasn't come to fruition yet. The major issue? A computer's inability to accurately sense and interpret all applicable conditions under all situations.

Recent accidents have also caused the DOT and NTSB to back off approving robotic test vehicles.

8. Manufacturing Workers

This is already happening. Many assembly lines now are almost totally robotic. That is actually the primary use of robotics.

9. Journalists

I doubt this, simply because the required bias on issues would be lost.

AI is not here. Sorry. A computer is still just a machine. It has no thought, no soul, no spirit, and no intuition. It cannot draw on knowledge not programmed specifically into it to handle unanticipated conditions as they arise. I understand how many people think a computer is somehow smart, but in reality it is just as smart as a cash register from days of yore. The only difference is it can make more logical decisions and move much faster than the old mechanical keys.

It still cannot think.

TheRedneck

Read the link I provided with my post, it describes just how AI and robots will do the jobs I listed.
You make some valid counter points though to be fair. My point however was that while AI won't entirely replace all jobs in these sectors, it can, will and is already taking a large chunk of those jobs away.

For instance in contruction work a brick laying machine can do away with 3 human labourers, while it still needs someone to operate and oversee the work done by the machine. That's still 3 human labourers or brick layers no longer required, or paying taxes or earning a wage.

It still cannot think.

That was my view of AI aswell, but then I heard about the bots that facebook created that began to talk to each other in their own made up language which the programers couldn't understand. How do you explain that?
The premise of true AI after all is that it can teach itself, it can learn for itself. The programer isn't providing any intructions to it beyond that.

The AI that beat the world chapion at GO taught itself the rules of the game by playing itself. It even made moves that appeared counter intuitive to human observers. So AI can strategerize far better than we can and spontaniously create it's own language to communicate with other AI that we can't understand. Is it not thinking for itself in this respect?

Also with all the jobs lost to this tech how will that affect the economy? How can governments pay people a basic income while at the same time suffer the loss of massively reduced income tax with so many forced out of paid work?

Not to mention what will happen when the sun throws out annother huge EMP like that of 1859.
en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: surfer_soul

You make some valid counter points though to be fair. My point however was that while AI won't entirely replace all jobs in these sectors, it can, will and is already taking a large chunk of those jobs away.

In my younger days, I made my spending money hauling hay. Soon after I graduated to the adult workforce, the newer round bales began to be popular. They required no help to handle them. The bales were rolled up and left in the field until needed. Then, a tractor with a lift arm picked them up and carried them to their destination. No young kids needed.

At one time, I was the best manual drafter in this part of the country. Today, I can't get a job at manual drafting, because no one wants a manual drafter any more; everything is computerized.

Progress has always replaced lower-skilled workers, and always will. The only way to stop it is to stop progress, which in itself will cost jobs in the R&D field. That's just the way things are. The only way to combat it is to educate oneself so one isn't stuck in a low-wage, menial job that is easily displaced by technology.

Like I did.

That was my view of AI aswell, but then I heard about the bots that facebook created that began to talk to each other in their own made up language which the programers couldn't understand. How do you explain that?

To be honest... I explain it as someone's imagination running away.

Not physically possible.

The AI that beat the world chapion at GO taught itself the rules of the game by playing itself. It even made moves that appeared counter intuitive to human observers. So AI can strategerize far better than we can and spontaniously create it's own language to communicate with other AI that we can't understand. Is it not thinking for itself in this respect?

No, it is not. It is 'learning' (adjusting its own programming) by using algorithms that follow mathematical constructs for efficiency. Every game provides data points to the algorithm and allows for the variables to be adjusted more precisely. It's nothing more than a mathematical equation; the computer is not going "I think this silly human will make this move, so I will counter it early."

A computer can only run a program. In that program, it can add, subtract, multiply, perform logistical operations (invert, AND, OR), and make decisions on what instruction to execute based on the result of those operations. That's it. There is nothing else it can do. Programmers have developed algorithms to allow programs like Firefox to access the Internet and show web pages using only those simple commands. It cannot add in new variables into a program. It cannot change the equations written into the program. It cannot make decisions based on anything other than mathematical/logistical operations. It simply can't do it, any more than a car can sprout wings and become an airplane.

I know that's a hard pill for many to swallow, but it is the truth. A computer is a machine. The Terminator is a movie.

Running a kiosk does not require thought. It is simply a communications application. The customer inputs their choice of menu items, the requests are error-checked, and the order is sent to the kitchen to be prepared. No thought processes required.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Whoisjohngalt

originally posted by: testingtesting
a reply to: TheRedneck

Remember the Luddites!.
For those who never heard that phrase.

I think the more jobs automation takes from people and more people out of work people will start smashing up those machines in protests I bet Neo Luddites will be a bigger thing in the future.

I can see this happening. Crazy # goes down at McDonalds. Earlier this year, a guy tried to hang himself from the rafters in the McDonalds by me.

There's a McDonald's not far away from me that's been closed since February because some dude lit himself on fire inside it.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Not everyone is capable of changing their career/jobs to something that AI/automation can't do. Ecspecially when those roles a filled by someone else. What happens to those people whose jobs have been displaced? What impact does that have on the economy as whole?

AI is making decissions based on the information it has available to it. Which is exactly what we do except when we make decisions based on a whim or gut feeling which we can't really explain.

Running a kiosk does not require thought. It is simply a communications application. The customer inputs their choice of menu items, the requests are error-checked, and the order is sent to the kitchen to be prepared. No thought processes required.

I agree no thought process required, and judging by the amount of people that eat at MacDonalds this seems to be the way society is going. No thought process required. We have our tech to do that for us, or we will.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: Aazadan

The way I see it, they're going to replace menial labor regardless of that labor's cost. So laborers better get whatever they can get now while they have the chance.

The excuse that higher wage demands is fueling automation is a lie that's being pushed to keep workers divided. Companies like McDonald's are already making a huge profit; they just want to share as little as possible of those profits with their workers (which means that a higher share of the profits go to investors/shareholders/etc).

Don't get me wrong, it's perfectly understandable from a business perspective. But they should be more honest about what's going on. At least the article in the OP pointed out that the kiosk usage tended to increase how much customers purchased per visit. If they can get more customers used to kiosks, then there really won't be a business need for human cashiers or order takers. (I actually would prefer that restaurants have kiosks since I can't stand waiters and hate the whole need for tipping.)

You do realize that the vast majority of McDonald's are franchises (i.e. small businesses). The wages for the restaurant are set by the individual restaurant owner, not at the corporate level.

Restaurants have extremely low profit margins. Typical McDonald's does about $2.5 million in annual sales. Net profit is about $150-$200k/yr. Food and labor are largest expenses typically. Raising wages even a little can wipe out profits at the store level.

Corporate profits are distributed to the shareholders via dividends. Company typically reinvests profits into retained earnings or other capital investments.

Pressure to raise wages along with cost of technology decreasing is making the ROI of kiosks a better investment. Companies will always look for ways to innovate and reduce costs. Kiosks would happen regardless, but the two factors above are accelerating their adoption.

originally posted by: surfer_soul
a reply to: TheRedneck

Not everyone is capable of changing their career/jobs to something that AI/automation can't do. Ecspecially when those roles a filled by someone else. What happens to those people whose jobs have been displaced? What impact does that have on the economy as whole?

AI is making decissions based on the information it has available to it. Which is exactly what we do except when we make decisions based on a whim or gut feeling which we can't really explain.

Running a kiosk does not require thought. It is simply a communications application. The customer inputs their choice of menu items, the requests are error-checked, and the order is sent to the kitchen to be prepared. No thought processes required.

I agree no thought process required, and judging by the amount of people that eat at MacDonalds this seems to be the way society is going. No thought process required. We have our tech to do that for us, or we will.

True, not everyone is capable, but it is a reality that you have to constantly be improving yourself personally in the market place.

As others have stated, these jobs were never intended to a career or support families. The jobs are meant as a stepping stone to something better. You work, gain some skills, and find better paying opportunities. If you aren't able to climb a ladder to better opportunities, you either have or continue to make some bad personal and professional decisions.

The thing is though, we all have to deal with progress and technology. I work in banking and I know for fact technology will replace me. I make a several hundred grand a year now, but the writing is on the wall. I am actively looking to transition into something else. However, I see a lot of people who just get too comfortable and think things will always be the same.

originally posted by: tinymind
a reply to: dug88

This sounds like a real good deal for the corporation.

The save paying a human to do one job and find a way to piss off a whole lot of customers at the same time.
I say this because I am sure the reliability will not be there very long for these touch screens. What with all the dirty fingers and little kids beating on them.
You know it will happen, its just a matter of time.

and all the bent quarters forced into the coin slot. The machines will have an out of order sign on them most of the time.