A Question Regarding Transgender People and Transitioning

originally posted by: continuousThunder
given that twenty minutes ago you were on an unhinged rant about trans people releasing deadly chemicals into the water and buying off the silence of doctors i find it stretches credibility somewhat that you could now be asking these questions in earnest as an honest way to understand.... however...

Unhinged rant, eh? Me thinks your own confirmation biases are getting in your way. I pointed out very real and legitimate concerns that are widely and well documented. I never said anything about "deadly" chemicals, just endocrine-disrupters polluting our environment. Nor did I say anything about "buying off the silence of doctors," but rather that the research is notoriously limited, and what we have is the best information money can buy... as in that medical research funded by those with a financial incentive.

When one has to mischaracterize and put words in another's mouth, it does indeed stretch someone's credibility...

i will give you the benefit of a doubt...

How generous of you.

...and give you this little illustrative anecdote i've used around here a few times that seems to help people get it;
i think of hormones as being a lot like the oil in your car. you can run an unleaded tank on diesel and it won't immediately explode. It won't be a happy engine by any respect but it will continue to work after a fashion.
Similarly, my body never felt right in my entire life. Even before i knew that trans was a thing and that i could be it, i felt deeply and innately wrong. When i finally summoned the courage to transition and got my body running on the right oil, everything fell right into place and has felt consistently and increasingly right ever since.
it may seem unlikely to someone who's never had to deal with gender stuff, but it's the experience of my body, it's what i've actually lived and it is irrevocable truth.

That I can relate to! Hormones have been hell for me most of my life... from endometriosis to fibroid tumors resulting in a hysterectomy. But I loved being pregnant. I felt wonderful when I was pregnant. So it was no surprise when the doctor who removed the fibroid tumors told me that I'd basically been PMSing since adolescence, and that pregnancy was probably the only time my hormones did what they were supposed to do. Also not surprisingly, I am much less stressed and OCD post-hysterectomy. So I do understand the role hormones can play in our mental and emotional well-being.

ETA: about the clothing thing and trans people being the biggest upholders of gender norms - i think i've worn a dress maybe three times so far this year, and most days i can be found wearing jeans and a shirt of some brutal metal band or other. I feel amazing and feminine in that, just as i do when i wear a dress. it's not about gendered items of clothing, it's about the gender you bring with you.

Okay, and again, that make sense to me. The clothes don't make the person. So what does?

Maybe it would help if I explained where I'm coming from (and probably lots of people). Beyond the physical realities of having female genitalia and its attendant necessities, I don't "live" as a woman. I don't even have my female indoor plumbing anymore, and there was a time when such women were not even considered "real" women anymore. I guess such women were considered no gender at all. But the bottom line is that I'm just me. No matter what plumbing I do or don't have. I cannot think of anything I do or don't do as a woman... I just do me with absolutely no regard for gender.

In other words, my gender only defines my physical reality... it doesn't define who I am or what I do. It's not a factor. So since it's not the superficial accoutrements like clothing, and even "masculine" clothing such as brutal metal band T-shirts make you feel feminine, then what is the difference? How is your life different and/or better living as a woman? What changes?

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Boadicea

Sounds like a mental health issue to me.

That is no doubt one cause, or perhaps just one confounding factor, but only one. Emotional health is also a factor. Given our current level of knowledge, there is no doubt also a physical aspect as well. And we can only imagine how all such factors can compound and aggravate each other.

One would imagine our essence or soul to be of an asexual nature, so how it can be born into the wrong type of body or sexuality is quite frankly beyond me.

This is an excellent point, and one I've pondered as well... but it's also quite subjective!

People that consider becoming Transsexual are perfectly free to do so, that's a given, but it's possibly worth considering that that some things dont grow back.

Takes all sorts to make the world spin through so whatever makes people happy is exactly how they should "live" as the opposite gender.

I agree, and would never deny people the right to do for themselves what they think is best. If folks aren't hurting anyone, let them do as they will. But in my heart, I would much prefer that folks could be who and what they are without feeling the need to take such drastic (and risky) measures to do so. No one should have to change themselves to be accepted and allowed to be their best self in the world. What I don't understand is how much of the need to change is a reaction to society's gender definitions and expectations and how much is something else that I'm completely clueless to! Hence my question...

a reply to: snowspirit

It sounds as though that young man needs a different counselor, one that understands that gay does not mean wrong gender. That is concerning.

It is concerning. Especially because I'm not sure if this counselor is going rogue from recommended best practices... or if this is becoming the industry norm...

a reply to: continuousThunder

Just FYI, birth control pills are endocrine disruptors too. Basically, we're talking about hormones that don't break down in the water.

How much hormone load do you think the entire system is designed to carry and what is that doing to everyone else?

Heck, maybe that's why so many people are messed up.

originally posted by: JokerThe1st
a reply to: Boadicea

...the biggest problem i see with it all is that its artificial. It's all about appearance,how i feel,how i look to myself and others blah blah blah and the truth of the matter is no matter how many operations you have or HRT etc... you will always be what you where born (Reality Check)

Yes, indeed. We can never change how we came into the world. That foundation will always play a role in one's life, no matter what physical changes are made (whether via drugs or surgery) and must be respected for overall health and well-being.

Most of us are not balanced completely by any stretch of the imagination but this is an example of extreme distortion/confusion...

This is very true. I know that studies have been done comparing parts of the brain between transgender persons and non-transgender persons, but I haven't been able to find studies that compare normal variances/ranges in the population. (And I use "normal" in the clinical sense). Maybe I'm just not using the right keywords to search or maybe those studies haven't been done. I don't know. I'm wondering just how "normal" the norm really is. I suspect that we would find wide ranging variances within the overall population.

Also to go to the extreme of having surgery to alter your private parts/your gifts of creation is not only damaging but a possible indicator of serious mental health issues.

Perhaps... but in this age where people are increasingly scared into thinking only docs and their drugs can fix what ails ya, I think this is just another aspect to overall dependency and subjugation to the medical/big pharma industry.

originally posted by: Saiker
Tranny here (no I have not had my junk chopped and I find that idea scary.) I've been married in a traditional marriage for more than ten years. What makes me a girl inside a guys body it was noticed by my wife before I knew. It all came naturally how we talked, how we cuddled, had sex, ate dinner raised our children. I naturally was doing my wife's job (traditional family type stuff) without thinking about it. Then we explored each other sexually and we knew it was so. My wife had a problem with it at first in being secure I would not search out the man of my dreams. After a few years of our struggle, we have found happiness in each other.

I am very masculine as a learned trait over my childhood and would be very offended at the notion im a gay because im not. To those that make assumptions about one's sexuality and their mentality should really be careful one day you may see quite the curveball in your life that you would never have expected because I was once that judgemental and harsh to those that were different.

Thank you for sharing this! I'm so happy you and your wife found your sweet spot

May I ask, do you feel like your genitalia doesn't match your gender? Is that something you would like to change? Or are you accepting that you can do and be what a woman does and is without changing your genitalia? Have you experienced any backlash from society? Or are you accepted for who you are?

a reply to: peter vlar

This entire line of reasoning is based on the concept that there sare only 2 possible genders based on biological outcome and completely ignores the fact that as far as chromosomes go, it isn't a matter of there only being XX or XY as options when that could not be farther from the truth. The world is not just a two tone, black and white reality. There are many colors and shades in between and all of these variable outcomes are expressed genetically

I think this cannot be emphasized strongly enough -- though my perspective of what it means may vary from yours.

I suspect that if we could recognize and measure all the relevant factors, and therefore understood all the whys and wherefores, we would find that biological gender isn't at all what we think it is, and that the norm covers a very wide range. I do agree with those who say that most gender norms are artificial social constructs, and that given the opportunity, we would all explore and develop and thrive in non-gender conforming ways.

a reply to: openyourmind1262

Loved your statement. Star for you!

Now I am just waiting for when "man" (this includes women ....for those feminist who feel offended) wants to be completely converted into a dog, a hog, or a cat maybe a rat.

I think that the whole changing your sex thing is a propaganda started by people and businesses that profit by it.

I know feminine guys, I know masculine girls. I know gay guys and Lesbian girls. You do not have to go through an expensive operation with lots of maintenance medications to change your sex. It is a money making scam, the problem is that our society as a poor definition of masculinity and feminity. Everyone is different, we can all find someone if we need someone. Look at the people who never get married and are not attracted to others sexually much. Just because a person is hormone deficient and in control of their mind doesn't mean they are defective either or even weird. I see more of an issue in society of people judging people by their looks.

originally posted by: rickymouse
I think that the whole changing your sex thing is a propaganda started by people and businesses that profit by it.

That is my biggest fear about the push to transition. At least what feels like a "push" in that direction, ignoring less invasive options.

Just because a person is hormone deficient --

And/or excess hormones.

-- and in control of their mind doesn't mean they are defective either or even weird. I see more of an issue in society of people judging people by their looks.

I see the same problem. And it's a big problem. If we could get past the judging (of all kinds), I wonder how many folks would want to transition? Or even feel a need to transition?

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: Boadicea

Many people with gender dysphoria would still transition medically. Having hormones that fit what your brain is expecting does wonders. So does looking at yourself naked and seeing what your brain expects to see.

I think I just got a little closer to understanding the "expect" part... at least a little!

Often times after going through menopause, women note changes to their bodies... like facial hair. And even knowing it can happen, I'm sure it's still quite a shock... not at all what they expect to see. This may not be the best analogy, but it is opening my mind somewhat. I'll have to ponder this some more...

originally posted by: Boadicea

Having genitals that match your perception of your self is now a reality...

This is where I get lost... how do genitals define the person inside? As I stated, forget the superficial accoutrements, and we'll add our physical genitals, and what is different?

The best way to answer that is to examine how your own genitals do or don't define you, Boad. For example, would you feel something crucial was missing if you had to have them removed, such as for a cancer treatment? Would you reconstruct them to feel like yourself again, or is the importance of genitals regarding identity something more arbitrary for you on a fundamental level? As in, would their loss not bother you, not make you feel like a fish out of water in your body, or would you feel like something utterly critical is missing?
For transgendered people, it's not a cancer loss of a body part that makes them feel foreign in their bodies, it's always been something critical missing.
If it would bother you greatly to not have genitals matching how you perceive yourself, it should be a no brainer to understand how trans folks feel.

a reply to: ketsuko

Or...maybe gays see it as just selfish look at me BS. A transgendered explosion occurred some years ago...…..called the internet.

a reply to: Nyiah

The best way to answer that is to examine how your own genitals do or don't define you, Boad.

The funny thing about that is that in some ways my own circumstances -- my own hormonal issues -- kind of make it impossible for me to do so!

For example, would you feel something crucial was missing if you had to have them removed, such as for a cancer treatment? Would you reconstruct them to feel like yourself again, or is the importance of genitals regarding identity something more arbitrary for you on a fundamental level? As in, would their loss not bother you, not make you feel like a fish out of water in your body, or would you feel like something utterly critical is missing?

I actually have had a complete hysterectomy, and 20 years earlier lost a tube and ovary to a ruptured ectopic pregnancy. At that time, docs told me I could never have kids. I soon found out that some folks look at you different when you're -- gasp! -- "barren." And not so much today, but hysterectomies (and even menopause itself) were once thought to make one "less" of a woman. I could never relate to either. The removal of the tube and ovary were life saving, so I never missed them. They had to go. Stuff happens, right? Same with the hysterectomy, though it wasn't an emergency situation. So no, I've never felt like I was missing something or that I was less of a woman or more of a man... it's just my body, not me. Not my essence and spirit.

For transgendered people, it's not a cancer loss of a body part that makes them feel foreign in their bodies, it's always been something critical missing.
If it would bother you greatly to not have genitals matching how you perceive yourself, it should be a no brainer to understand how trans folks feel.

I guess it's impossible for me to say, because at this point if something changed after all these years, it would be new to me, as opposed to something I always felt was missing. I don't miss the internal organs... and I sure don't miss periods! But I think the health-related issues I had to deal with, I had to separate me from my body, if that makes sense.

originally posted by: Boadicea
I actually have had a complete hysterectomy, and 20 years earlier lost a tube and ovary to a ruptured ectopic pregnancy. At that time, docs told me I could never have kids. I soon found out that some folks look at you different when you're -- gasp! -- "barren." And not so much today, but hysterectomies (and even menopause itself) were once thought to make one "less" of a woman.

Slightly OT to the thread, but I do want to say I can relate in a different sense about being pitied for assumptive reasons. Believe it or not, I've gotten a ridiculous amount of, "Oh, I'm sorry" comments about having had a tubal ligation. Really, people? It was voluntary, I'm done with having kids & made damn sure there were no more. Why the hell are you sorry for my being done? Broodmare I am not, LOL.
I think society unconsciously still thinks of fertility as something to laud to a rather blind degree, & by default, to pity those who can't reproduce or don't/no longer do out of choice.

I guess it's impossible for me to say, because at this point if something changed after all these years, it would be new to me, as opposed to something I always felt was missing. I don't miss the internal organs... and I sure don't miss periods! But I think the health-related issues I had to deal with, I had to separate me from my body, if that makes sense.

I can understand this, but to be fair about it, internal organs can't be looked at, so maybe I should have opted for more clarity and said external genitals (although technically, that's the very definition of "genitals" -- external reproductive goods) If those had to be removed from you for one reason or another, I'd wager you'd feel at least a little out of water, at least for a short while. I would, too, but they don't necessarily matter too much to me. However, I recognize that they do for others, very, very much.
My late grandmother had a mastectomy, and mourned that lost boob for the rest of her life. She did have it reconstructed, but she was one of those rare people who's body rejected the breast implant, so she spent the rest of her life with a false breast bra insert. The very few times she discussed it, she made it clear that she never felt like herself again, and desperately wished the reconstruction had worked (i.e not rejected the implant) She saw herself as incomplete, pretending with a fake boob never worked because now her body was "wrong", it lacked something she found important.

If I apply that mindset to trans folks, I can completely understand where they come from. It was hard for my grandmother to feel like herself again with one breast, so I absolutely can see how someone feeling like their genitals don't match them can feel wrong, too.

a reply to: Nyiah

Slightly OT to the thread...

Oh dear lord. Unfortunately, I know too well what you mean. Do people even hear themselves??? My daughter has gotten some very insensitive and inappropriate remarks since learning she cannot have kids... she's even been told she's no longer "marriageable." Now when people ask her when she's going to have kids, she just says "when it happens."

I can understand this, but to be fair about it, internal organs can't be looked at, so many I should have opted for more clarity and said external genitals (although technically, that's the very definition of "genitals" -- external reproductive goods)

You're right. I didn't even think of breasts -- d'oh! I never got past the urethra in terms of outer genitalia.

If those had to be removed from you for one reason or another, I'd wager you'd feel at least a little out of water, at least for a short while.

No doubt. And I can see how reactions/expectations from others would play into that. Especially given how many folks think it necessary and appropriate to... ahem... share their thoughts...

My late grandmother had a mastectomy, and mourned that lost boob for the rest of her life.... If I apply that mindset to trans folks, I can completely understand where they come from. It was hard for my grandmother to feel like herself again with one breast, so I absolutely can see how someone feeling like their genitals don't match them can feel wrong, too.

That's so sad for your grandmother. When I was looking at reconstructive surgery for my mother after a mastectomy, the satisfaction rate was quite high -- like 99% or close to it. She just fell into that 1%. As if she hadn't gone through enough, right?

Did your grandmother ever speak of any physical sensations? Not necessarily phantom pains, but anything like that?

My thought is that the body can do amazing things for itself and surprising things to itself... so if the mind can send signals to or of a missing limb, can it send signals to non-existent organs if hormones or something are out of whack? Or the wrong synapse gets fired? Or something... I don't know... I'm just thinking out loud I guess...

If you take away all of the outward expressions of humanity then what you are left with is not human. It's not a logical argument at all.

If we're going to get to the root of what this all means I don't believe pigeonholing human factors into non-existence to make a point, one way or another, is a legitimate avenue of exploration.

originally posted by: projectvxn
If you take away all of the outward expressions of humanity...

I would argue that there is a very big difference between "humanity" and "gender," and especially what would constitute the outward expressions of each. But perhaps by conflating the two, you show part of the problem.

...then what you are left with is not human. It's not a logical argument at all.

This conclusion is invalid because the premise is flawed. The outward expression of humanity is to and for humans... all humans. No regard to gender at all. So what we are "left with" is all about humans. Just not about gender.

If we're going to get to the root of what this all means I don't believe pigeonholing human factors into non-existence to make a point, one way or another, is a legitimate avenue of exploration.

Human factors and gender factors are two totally different things. And removing stereotypical "outward expressions" is exactly the opposite of pigeonholing. Like anything and everything else, people are individuals and express themselves as they see fit. And, in fact, I daresay many people don't really outwardly express their gender at all.

a reply to: Boadicea

I believe the logic falls apart when you remove the act of outward expression from the equation in order to ascertain the meaning of gender independently of that expression.