A Question Regarding Transgender People and Transitioning

I have a simple but serious question for those who advocate for transgender people transitioning to their preferred gender:

If we take away all the superficial accoutrements of gender in society -- the clothes, the makeup, the hair, the jewelry, etc. -- and someone decides to live as the opposite gender, what would be different? How exactly would they "live" as the opposite gender?

What could/would the transgender do/be as the opposite gender that they could not/would not do/be as their birth gender?

This is a serious question. And I appreciate all serious replies. Please help me understand.

a reply to: Boadicea

I feel like since we live in a society where there ARE numerous "accoutrements of gender", then it's impossible to tell. They would likely still get a reassignment surgery to live comfortably.

originally posted by: Boadicea
I have a simple but serious question for those who advocate for transgender people transitioning to their preferred gender:

If we take away all the superficial accoutrements of gender in society -- the clothes, the makeup, the hair, the jewelry, etc. -- and someone decides to live as the opposite gender, what would be different? How exactly would they "live" as the opposite gender?

What could/would the transgender do/be as the opposite gender that they could not/would not do/be as their birth gender?

This is a serious question. And I appreciate all serious replies. Please help me understand.

If you take away all of these so-called "superficial accouterments of gender," how exactly would gender be defined, other than by the presence of the sex organs?

-dex

originally posted by: Atsbhct
a reply to: Boadicea

I feel like since we live in a society where there ARE numerous "accoutrements of gender", then it's impossible to tell.

That wasn't the hypothetical proposed...

Every day people of both genders defy so-called "gender norms." Men wear pink and women wear pants, etc. At this point, it seems that transgenders living as the opposite gender are thee most conforming to society's gender standards of all.

They would likely still get a reassignment surgery to live comfortably.

In theory, but not necessarily in practice... all surgeries come with their own risks and adverse outcomes.

But in theory, what would be "more comfortable"? For example, is there an innate urge to pee standing up rather than sitting down? Or vice versa?

a reply to: Boadicea

Many people with gender dysphoria would still transition medically. Having hormones that fit what your brain is expecting does wonders. So does looking at yourself naked and seeing what your brain expects to see.

This transgender crusade is ridiculous. IMHO....it's the "look at me generation". I'm 55 years old. I've never meet a transgendered person. Never in 12 years of school, never in 29 years in the construction industry, never in 55 years of life. Not till recently, past several years. It seems the "look at me generation" has taken control. To be honest, I'm not saying there's no transgendered people, because there are " real" transgendered folks born.....but no where near the rate of transgenders now...look at me generation is what we're dealing with. I have a gay stepson, not a little gay but the " I'm here and I'm queer type personality.....why does he not like transgendered people I wonder. Maybe he see's it for what it is..BS.

a reply to: DexterRiley

If you take away all of these so-called "superficial accouterments of gender," how exactly would gender be defined, other than by the presence of the sex organs?

That's exactly what I'm wondering about.

When gender was first defined (or "assigned"), we didn't know about hormones and chromosomes and all the science behind it. It was simply based on the physical organs. The physical organs are what they are -- nothing more and nothing less.

So beyond the physical reality, and ignoring the superficial and subjective views of "gender," what is really different?

a reply to: Boadicea

Women only wearing dresses or skirts hasn't been a "gender norm" for almost a decade.
Men not wearing pink was only a thing for a short period, and isn't really a thing anymore.

Having genitals that match your perception of your self is now a reality, and the eensy weensy, teensy tiny percentage of the population who feel they are the opposite gender are taking advantage of reassignment surgeries, not to feel comfortable sitting down or standing up to pee, but to feel whole and "right".
Good for them.

given that twenty minutes ago you were on an unhinged rant about trans people releasing deadly chemicals into the water and buying off the silence of doctors i find it stretches credibility somewhat that you could now be asking these questions in earnest as an honest way to understand.... however...

i will give you the benefit of a doubt, and give you this little illustrative anecdote i've used around here a few times that seems to help people get it;
i think of hormones as being a lot like the oil in your car. you can run an unleaded tank on diesel and it won't immediately explode. It won't be a happy engine by any respect but it will continue to work after a fashion.
Similarly, my body never felt right in my entire life. Even before i knew that trans was a thing and that i could be it, i felt deeply and innately wrong. When i finally summoned the courage to transition and got my body running on the right oil, everything fell right into place and has felt consistently and increasingly right ever since.
it may seem unlikely to someone who's never had to deal with gender stuff, but it's the experience of my body, it's what i've actually lived and it is irrevocable truth.

ETA: about the clothing thing and trans people being the biggest upholders of gender norms - i think i've worn a dress maybe three times so far this year, and most days i can be found wearing jeans and a shirt of some brutal metal band or other. I feel amazing and feminine in that, just as i do when i wear a dress. it's not about gendered items of clothing, it's about the gender you bring with you.

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: Boadicea

Many people with gender dysphoria would still transition medically. Having hormones that fit what your brain is expecting does wonders.

Thank you -- this is what I'm trying to understand. The part that goes beyond the material and superficial. Can you expand on that?

And especially how society's demands/expectations influence those feelings? Especially in non-superficial ways. For example, women are known as "nurturers," sometimes rightly and sometimes wrongly! Men not so much -- again, sometimes rightly and sometimes wrongly. But then there's men like my hubby, who have an affinity for animals and are quite nurturing and loving... while other men think it's a sign of their manliness to assert dominance and abuse and torment small creatures. This may be a really bad example. And I apologize for my ignorance if it is...

So does looking at yourself naked and seeing what your brain expects to see.

Now that I don't get at all! I've always expected the worst when looking in the mirror -- especially naked!

But since you mentioned it, I'm wondering about your use of the word "expect" as opposed to "want." I don't know any woman who can't pick her body apart ten ways from Sunday. We see faults in ourselves that no one else sees. But the woman who wants to see larger breasts, for example, knows that's what she wants to see (and have), but it's definitely not what she expects to see. Does that make sense?

originally posted by: openyourmind1262

I have a gay stepson, not a little gay but the " I'm here and I'm queer type personality.....why does he not like transgendered people I wonder. Maybe he see's it for what it is..BS.

He's not alone. Interestingly enough, part of what prompted my question is a young (gay) man I know who is being encouraged to transition by a counselor although he has never felt any gender dysphoria and is content as himself -- a gay man. He's a gentle and loving soul, but I wouldn't call him effeminate. (His counseling is for Asperger's issues.) And I've heard before that this is becoming rather common (encouraging gay men to transition.) It's concerning.

a reply to: openyourmind1262

It may be because for gays, biological sex is enormously important and sort of defines who and what they are. They are generally only/mainly sexually attracted to the same sex.

But for transgenders, biological sex is more or less meaningless and gender which is ill-defined is all important. For the transgender, biological sex is trash and all that matters is what gender they believe they are.

The two concepts will and do collide.

a reply to: Boadicea

Sounds like a mental health issue to me.

One would imagine our essence or soul to be of an asexual nature, so how it can be born into the wrong type of body or sexuality is quite frankly beyond me.

People that consider becoming Transsexual are perfectly free to do so, that's a given, but it's possibly worth considering that that some things dont grow back.

Takes all sorts to make the world spin through so whatever makes people happy is exactly how they should "live" as the opposite gender.

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: openyourmind1262

I have a gay stepson, not a little gay but the " I'm here and I'm queer type personality.....why does he not like transgendered people I wonder. Maybe he see's it for what it is..BS.

He's not alone. Interestingly enough, part of what prompted my question is a young (gay) man I know who is being encouraged to transition by a counselor although he has never felt any gender dysphoria and is content as himself -- a gay man. He's a gentle and loving soul, but I wouldn't call him effeminate. (His counseling is for Asperger's issues.) And I've heard before that this is becoming rather common (encouraging gay men to transition.) It's concerning.

It sounds as though that young man needs a different counselor, one that understands that gay does not mean wrong gender. That is concerning.

originally posted by: Atsbhct
a reply to: Boadicea

Women only wearing dresses or skirts hasn't been a "gender norm" for almost a decade.
Men not wearing pink was only a thing for a short period, and isn't really a thing anymore.

My son wore a pink shirt to brunch this weekend...

Having genitals that match your perception of your self is now a reality...

This is where I get lost... how do genitals define the person inside? As I stated, forget the superficial accoutrements, and we'll add our physical genitals, and what is different?

And for what it's worth, I would consider societal reaction a valid response.

...and the eensy weensy, teensy tiny percentage of the population who feel they are the opposite gender are taking advantage of reassignment surgeries, not to feel comfortable sitting down or standing up to pee, but to feel whole and "right".

Okay, you've told me what you think it's "not." But you haven't told me what you think it is.

What is the difference? I come from a school of thought that says if it ain't broke you don't fix it. If one's plumbing is working correctly, then you should leave well enough alone. So what is the advantage to risking one's physical well-being for invasive surgeries with potential adverse outcomes? How is that preferable to accepting and appreciating a healthy body, and just being the best one can be? Even if society considers it contrary to their superficial definition of what a man or woman "really" is or is supposed to be...

a reply to: Boadicea

This is so hard to answer lol
I don't think these folk would be so in your face about it, the biggest problem i see with it all is that its artificial. It's all about appearance,how i feel,how i look to myself and others blah blah blah and the truth of the matter is no matter how many operations you have or HRT etc... you will always be what you where born (Reality Check) and there is a reason why male and females exist as polar opposites, the marriage of which in the true sense of the word marriage is the combining of two halves to make a whole.
In truth this is an internal struggle which is being externalized or manifested by unbalanced individuals, a person has an inner being which is normally the polar opposite to there external being when this inner influence becomes stronger or dominating over the external polarity or sex of the individual and is allowed to run wild this is what we get people thinking they can just cut,chop and change there outer being to match there inner being.
Most of us are not balanced completely by any stretch of the imagination but this is an example of extreme distortion/confusion and our ''you go for it kid'' attitude towards this does not help the situation.
Also to go to the extreme of having surgery to alter your private parts/your gifts of creation is not only damaging but a possible indicator of serious mental health issues.

Tranny here (no I have not had my junk chopped and I find that idea scary.) I've been married in a traditional marriage for more than ten years. What makes me a girl inside a guys body it was noticed by my wife before I knew. It all came naturally how we talked, how we cuddled, had sex, ate dinner raised our children. I naturally was doing my wife's job (traditional family type stuff) without thinking about it. Then we explored each other sexually and we knew it was so. My wife had a problem with it at first in being secure I would not search out the man of my dreams. After a few years of our struggle, we have found happiness in each other.

I am very masculine as a learned trait over my childhood and would be very offended at the notion im a gay because im not. To those that make assumptions about one's sexuality and their mentality should really be careful one day you may see quite the curveball in your life that you would never have expected because I was once that judgemental and harsh to those that were different.

a reply to: Saiker

... or maybe you actually are a man, but you are a more nurturing one?

I think we as a society are so busy trying to "diagnose" each other that we sometimes just miss that we're all individuals.

I tend to be the tough mom in the house. I'm the sports mom, and I'm going to be the one who says, "Great kid, rub some dirt on it and get back out there!" while my husband is the shrinking violet type who wants to carry his son to the car because he has a scraped knee. But that doesn't make him a woman trapped in a man's body anymore than it makes me a man trapped in a woman's body. It just means he didn't grow up on the sports field like I did.

We're individuals who complement well.

a reply to: ketsuko

Thats very true. We do slap labels on everything. I think many people do slap a label on themselves at the sacrifice of their own happiness. Normally i dont label myself as such, but the way some posters are so judgemental of others made me want to explain why its not good to treat others a certain way because they are different.

originally posted by: JokerThe1st
a reply to: Boadicea

This is so hard to answer lol
I don't think these folk would be so in your face about it, the biggest problem i see with it all is that its artificial. It's all about appearance,how i feel,how i look to myself and others blah blah blah and the truth of the matter is no matter how many operations you have or HRT etc... you will always be what you where born (Reality Check) and there is a reason why male and females exist as polar opposites, the marriage of which in the true sense of the word marriage is the combining of two halves to make a whole.

This entire line of reasoning is based on the concept that there sare only 2 possible genders based on biological outcome and completely ignores the fact that as far as chromosomes go, it isn't a matter of there only being XX or XY as options when that could not be farther from the truth. The world is not just a two tone, black and white reality. There are many colors and shades in between and all of these variable outcomes are expressed genetically

In truth this is an internal struggle which is being externalized or manifested by unbalanced individuals, a person has an inner being which is normally the polar opposite to there external being when this inner influence becomes stronger or dominating over the external polarity or sex of the individual and is allowed to run wild this is what we get people thinking they can just cut,chop and change there outer being to match there inner being.

I think you would be surprised to learn what a low percentage of TG actually undergo reassignment surgery. A large number of them are living, working, dating and marrying without having anything cut or chopped. You just don't know it when you pass them on the street.

Most of us are not balanced completely by any stretch of the imagination but this is an example of extreme distortion/confusion and our ''you go for it kid'' attitude towards this does not help the situation.
Also to go to the extreme of having surgery to alter your private parts/your gifts of creation is not only damaging but a possible indicator of serious mental health issues.

Honestly, this way of viewing things is a very new and very western society view of gender. There are Native American groups that had a 3rd gender until they were forced to "westernize" made to stop using their own languages and their own customs. From ancient Greece to modern Pakistan and India, gender has traditionally been more fluid than people seem to understand and sexual or gender dimorphism has been known since the beginning of recorded history and there is possible evidence in the archaeological record going back to the late Pleistocene.

Society has as much of an affect and role in all of this as biology and genetics do in both a positive and negative fashion. Saying that someone, whose life choices really have no affect on you, has serious mental health issues doesn't help further the dialogue. Especially when it's only an opinion with nothing scientific to back it up. The biggest factor as to why it seems more prevalent today is the internet and the immediacy of information.

No matter how you want to paint the picture though, ones views on gender, its place in society or its fluidity has more to do with the predominant faith of the region in question. Christianity went from performing same sex weddings until the middle ages to executing those who exhibited "abhorrent" sexual behavior. Ironically, right round the time the Islam made its way into Western Europe.