The Serious 9/11 Arguments Compilation.

Which is meaningless if there was no elemental aluminum for a thermite reaction.

This is nonsense Harrit paper said there was and you have no evidence there wasn't.

originally posted by: Jesushere
The thermite reaction does not use aluminum oxide. Is that false?

Yes, it is false Aluminum and oxygen present will form Aluminium oxide.

Harrit theory would even make sense if he observed no Aluminium in the dust samples. You can't have a thermite reaction without it.

Fe2O3 + 2 Al Is the components that make thermite. Show where it was proven there was free elemental aluminum to make the reaction work.

Especially after you claimed

Yes, Harrit found elemental aluminium in his dust samples

You said nothing about Harrit assumed

originally posted by: Jesushere
Which is meaningless if there was no elemental aluminum for a thermite reaction.

This is nonsense Harrit paper said there was and you have no evidence there wasn't.

Prove where Harrit actually tested for elemental aluminum to prove there was active thermite in his sample. You only provided he assumed.

neutronflux Prove where Harrit actually tested for elemental aluminium to prove there was active thermite in his sample. You only provided he assumed.

Why have you been not warned by moderators to stop with your nonsense? Harrit has actually tested for this and found it, you just don't like the results, like those clowns on the JREF forum.

a reply to: Jesushere

Why have you been not warned by moderators to stop with your nonsense? Harrit has actually tested for this and found it, you just don't like the results, like those clowns on the JREF forum.

Then cite the actual test results.

You only cited

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thus, while some of the aluminium
may be oxidized, there is insufficient oxygen present to account
for all of the aluminium; some of the aluminium must, therefore, exist in elemental form in the red material.

One, assuming is not proof of elemental aluminum.

Two, and even more erroneous in there is no proof there was free aluminum available to cause a thermite reaction. Something key to proving ACTIVE thermite.

Then on top of that, your blatant falsehood.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Yes, Harrit found elemental aluminium in his dust samples. You say Milette did not find this can you quote that, please.

Then after being called out again, you still claim

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Elemental aluminium was found in his samples he stated that unless you seeing something I don't quote away. Free what you mean by that?

Your growing list of blatant falsehoods.

a reply to: Jesushere

Chemist Mark Basille also confirmed elemental aluminium was present in the red/grey chips.

Can you cite his lab analysis? Or is that another blatant falsehood? And who verified his analysis of his samples?

www.internationalskeptics.com...

By: rogers619
27 March 14

Any Updates on Mark Basile's Study?

Any news on the research project that Mark Basile has put together?

According to ANETA.org, they reached their goal in January and that the study is in progress.

Also, what lab did they decide was the best for this study?

By benthamitemetric
www.internationalskeptics.com...
1 March 2018

It's now March 1, and so that means Ziggi Zugam can only claim that his lame, bare assertion that Mark Basile has done some Raman spectroscopy study, which may or may not be published in some form in another 2 months, was in actuality his much touted "major" February update on Mark Basile's 4-year long failure to simply submit the chips to an independent lab for testing.

LOL.

Who among you truthers still believes anything Ziggi Zugam claims regarding this project and why?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Jesushere

Why have you been not warned by moderators to stop with your nonsense? Harrit has actually tested for this and found it, you just don't like the results, like those clowns on the JREF forum.

Then cite the actual test results.

You only cited

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thus, while some of the aluminium
may be oxidized, there is insufficient oxygen present to account
for all of the aluminium; some of the aluminium must, therefore, exist in elemental form in the red material.

One, assuming is not proof of elemental aluminum.

Two, and even more erroneous in there is no proof there was free aluminum available to cause a thermite reaction. Something key to proving ACTIVE thermite.

Then on top of that, your blatant falsehood.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Yes, Harrit found elemental aluminium in his dust samples. You say Milette did not find this can you quote that, please.

Then after being called out again, you still claim

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Elemental aluminium was found in his samples he stated that unless you seeing something I don't quote away. Free what you mean by that?

Your growing list of blatant falsehoods.

This not ambiguous or hard to understand.
The properties of these chips were analyzed using optical microscopy, scanning electron microscopy (SEM), X-ray energy dispersive spectroscopy (XEDS), and differential scanning calorimetry (DSC). The red material contains grains approximately 100 nm across which are largely iron oxide, while aluminium is contained in tiny plate-like structures.

Separation of components using methyl ethyl ketone demonstrated that elemental aluminium is present.

a reply to: neutronflux

Can you cite his lab analysis? Or is that another blatant falsehood? And who verified his analysis of his samples?

His an Independent chemist it's laughable that you think JREF has more credibility on this issue. So you trust the opinion of random people on an internet forum? What do Skeptics always assume, the people who don't believe the official 9/11 story have another agenda? You can only support a theory with a evidence. When have you seen someone on JREF forum do their own research, they are clowns in a circus.

Dr Milette promised a peer to review paper in 2012 debunking the red/grey chips and that never materialized. He probably backed off on that because he knew he was fooling people and, would publicise Harrit findings even more and new questions would be asked.

There plenty of photographs online showing fires on floor 12 of WTC had gone out. Floor 13 very light fires not blazing at all. There no raging inferno in the building before it came down.

What it looks like to me the steel core collapsed and that's why the Penthouse fell through. There nothing that suggests column 79 on floor 12 and 13 got knocked off its seat and this lead to a progressive collapse.

Anyone can see they base this conclusion on one thing light fires seen on Floor 13 at 5 pm.

Freefall cannot happen in a building with steel cores. Do you think one girder and steel column falling is going to be strong enough to start a pancake event on the floor beneath (12 floors to 1 floor)

It fairly obvious why NIST removed shear studs from the concrete floor and steel beams they need their theory to sound more plausible to the layperson. Unfortunately, we know shear studs were not removed they were placed there during the construction on this floor.

a reply to: Jesushere


You do realize that the building was severely structurally compromised …….

By 230 in the afternoon had noticed a 3 story bulge forming on the SW corner of WTC 7

This lead to order at 3 pm to create a collapse zone surrounding WTC 7 and clear the area

Gee - now what could cause such bulge to form and for the FDNY to clear the scene in anticipation pf collapse …??

firerescue You do realize that the building was severely structurally compromised?

The only photo i saw was a gash down one corner of WTC7, it slid down 6 floors maybe 8 it was not a bulge. Inside the building, it probably looked more frightening than what looked like from the outside.

Lets us not forget NIST doesn't even claim a bulge helped the building fall down. They are claiming a single column on floor 13 with a steel beam girder attached to the floor of 14 moved off its connection seat due to fire.

There a lot of myths about why they pulled out. Decisions were made based on column 79 would lose stability an hour before the actual collapse, that's what NIST said occurred.

a reply to: Jesushere

Why people dislike conspiracists? They are shameless about telling falsehoods. Try to change the subject when confronted with their falsehoods.

First, what does the below have to do with anything?

The red material contains grains approximately 100 nm across

Some scientific law paint chips cannot be 100 nm across.

Second, from you

while aluminium is contained in tiny plate-like structures.

The aluminum composition positively identified as cited by your source at:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Was “while some of the aluminium may be oxidized“ and “Aluminium particles are covered with a
layer of aluminium oxide” .

This is the equation for thermite,
Fe2O3 + 2 Al

If the present aluminum is covered in aluminum Al2O3, there is no reason the aluminum is going to react with Fe2O3. You can think of aluminum oxide as a “poison” to the thermite reaction. Harrit acknowledges there is aluminum oxide in his samples.

Now quote from Harrit where he actively looked for, and found aluminum free of oxidation that would cause a thermite reaction with an igniter.

You cannot, because he didn’t do anything of the sort from what you cited. But he did find aluminum oxide which would poison and prevent the thermite reaction of Fe2O3 + 2 Al.

Quoted from you cited material:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thus, while some of the aluminium
may be oxidized, there is insufficient oxygen present to account
for all of the aluminium; some of the aluminium must, therefore, exist in elemental form in the red material.

There is nothing about an analysis finding elemental aluminum free of oxide. Is that a false statement?

He only assumes there is elemental aluminum free of oxide. Is that false.

How do you go from assuming you have elemental aluminum when you only have proof of aluminum oxide? Then make the leap of faith the dust proven to only contain aluminum oxide which is poisonous to the thermite is active thermite. You don’t unless it’s pseudoscience.

The again from you source:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

we observed a clear migration and aggregation of the aluminium away from other elements and determined that elemental aluminium and iron oxide must be present

MEK is slightly corrosive to aluminum. And it is used to clean contamination away from aluminum in welding? If MEK is an organic solvent, would it not lift contaminates off metal? And leave oxidized metal behind. I think the wording in the quote from Harrit’s work is backwards.

Ok? So an organic solvent “removed” what to free up the oxidized aluminum and iron?

www.microtonano.com...

Removing Cured Epoxy.

Other solvents which have shown to be effective are: toluene, MEK (methyl-ethyl-ketone) and NMP (n-methyl-pyrollidone)

Well that is strange? MEK is used to dissolve epoxy? And Harrit claimed his chips were not paint or primer? None in the dust from the collapse of 1,400,000 tons of buildings? I think that in itself is impossible. But to separate out the aluminum oxide, remember MEK is slightly corrosive to aluminum, and iron oxide he removed a substance with MEK. MEK that would free up aluminum oxide and iron oxide bound to epoxy? That is strange?

Name what analysis Harrit ran to prove it was not aluminum oxide?

Again, the only thing you cited is where Harrit theorized there was elemental aluminum because there was aluminum oxide. And aluminum oxide is poisonous to a thermite reaction. Harrit never ran a specific analysis to prove there was enough free elemental aluminum which could cause a thermite reaction. To only confirm aluminum oxide which is poisonous to a thermite reaction, than state you have thermite because of aluminum oxide is pseudoscience.

Then you have your blatant false claimes Harrit did something to specially prove there was elemental aluminum to claim active thermite when he only speculated there was elemental aluminum because of aluminum oxide? When the real argument is if there was enough aluminum free of an oxide coating to result in a thermite reaction? Which Harrit provides no proof.

www.abovetopsecret.com...
Yes, Harrit found elemental aluminium in his dust samples.

No, he assumed because aluminum oxide was present.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Elemental aluminium was found in his samples he stated that unless you seeing something I don't quote away. Free what you mean by that?

By what analysis did he prove there was enough aluminum free of oxide to call his sample active thermite?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Aluminium oxide is the chemical signature of Aluminium. If they finding Aluminium oxide that means Aluminium had to be present.

Elemental Aluminium is just Aluminium there nothing fancy about it.

False logic by you. Aluminum oxide has already reacted with oxygen and will not support a thermite reaction. Finding only aluminum oxide, and then assuming there was enough free and exposed elemental aluminum for a thermite reaction is an assumption. Not proof.


Then still waiting on you to cite the findings from the is claim.

Chemist Mark Basille also confirmed elemental aluminium was present in the red/grey chips.

a reply to: Jesushere

Can you please tell me where this statement by you is in the thread?

Chemist Mark Basille also confirmed elemental aluminium was present in the red/grey chips.

Can you cite where Basille confirmed there was enough free elemental aluminum in Harrit’s sample to label it active thermite?

originally posted by: Jesushere
The thermite reaction does not use aluminum oxide. Is that false?

Yes, it is false Aluminum and oxygen present will form Aluminium oxide.

Harrit theory would even make sense if he observed no Aluminium in the dust samples. You can't have a thermite reaction without it.

WTF? The claim by Harrit is active thermite. The active components are Fe2O3 + 2 Al.

You just confirmed the presence of aluminum oxide in Harrit’s sample, not elemental aluminum. Thanks for debunking there was active thermite and Harrit’s paper.

a reply to: Jesushere

What grounds are there to disbelieve him? If thermal measurements were taken each day well then that information has never got released to the public, why not? Just like everything about 9/11 transparency is lacking in the investigation.

Then I guess if he believes in fire related collapse we should believe him in that too.

Again, can you cite the actual recorded survey? Cite the actual equipment used? Can you cite if the thermal imager had the correct emmistivity for a jumbled pile of material. If the point to spot ratio was correct for the heights it was used at.

Is it false you claimed the pile got hotter between surveys? What made that happen. With all the thermal imaging you cite, why was a hot spot of 4,000 degrees F by your fantasy of thermite burning never recovered?

Another false implication by you? Or can you state where NASA claimed a hot spot greater than 1323 F

www.abovetopsecret.com...

neutronflux Nasa exposed this event for what it really is anyway. When images were taken hot spots showed up in excess of 1300c on Sep 16th and could have been hotter on Sep 11th.

And all of that thermal imaging failed to catch a hotspot of thermite burning at 4,000F? And the pile increase in temperature can be attributed to fires in the pile, and the 2800F to open flames.

neutronflux
Never ever did he claim it was standard thermite his claiming its nano-thermite. Chemical formula for it is this Fe2O3 + 2 Al -> 2 Fe + Al2O3

Finding Aluminum oxide in a sample is meaningless. Whats your claim it's not possible that some of the particles could have ignited?

You do not realise nine scientists worked on this paper, everyone would have to be involved in this cover-up?

It was explained in this quote and you posted this already in response. They used Methyl Ethyl Ketone Solvent test.

What they found It was discovered in this process
that a significant migration and segregation of aluminium had
occurred in the red-chip material. This allowed us to assess
whether some of the aluminium was in elemental form.

Elemental Aluminum is when the Aluminum has not combined in this case with the Iron oxide. If there are segregation and migration then it has not reacted, surely? Even with Aluminium oxide present, does not mean the chips are not nano-thermite ( false assumption from you) Aluminium oxide has to be present in a thermite reaction. Harrit is just saying he saw the Aluminum oxide, but he explained why he felt the sample had elemental Aluminium. If you not happy and believe you need more information you can contact him, you probably find an email account online?

Chemist Mark Basille. Already have, I provided a video. If you don't want to watch that you can ask people on the JREF forum about Chemist MAark Basille findings and wait for their response.

Wrong again the MEK test actually confirmed it was not primer paint. The red/chips, when placed in this solution, remained very hard, easy to pick up without deforming. The paint softened and was not hard. If it was painted then the steel surely would be present underneath the primer? Why not flake it off to see the steel? Harrit found silicon, carbon and sulphur in the samples, this would not be found in standard thermite. Those 3 ingredients added to nano-thermite increase the explosive power of it and are when ignited would be near silent

NIST even did their own test on the ceramic coating (Tnermec) primer paint and they said there no organic binder exists to combust." NIST debunked primer paint can ignite and explode. Harrit tests on the primer paint match NIST test.

a reply to: Jesushere

What they found It was discovered in this process
that a significant migration and segregation of aluminum had
occurred in the red-chip material. This allowed us to assess
whether some of the aluminum was in elemental form.

How would MEK cause a migration of aluminum when it is only slightly reactive with aluminum, and that reaction causes corrosion?

The MEK only dissolved away what the aluminum oxide was bound in.

a reply to: Jesushere

Elemental Aluminum is when the Aluminum has not combined in this case with the Iron oxide.

And cite what test was conducted by Harrit to determine if there was enough oxide free aluminum to classify his samples containing active thermite.

neutronflux
How would MEK cause a migration of aluminum when it is only slightly reactive with aluminum, and that reaction causes corrosion?

The MEK only dissolved away what the aluminum oxide was bound in.

These questions are irrelevant and probably babble too, but if you think you know something ask Professor Harrit.

I don't think there is any need to address this when Dr Milette confirmed the chips had termite properties. You can't have thermite properties without aluminium present.

originally posted by: Jesushere

Those 3 ingredients added to nano-thermite increase the explosive power of it and are when ignited would be near silent

If it is silent then it has no explosive power. Explosions exceed the speed of sound.