Home owner aged 78 arrested under suspicion of murder stabbing intruder UK

originally posted by: lakenheath24
a reply to: eNumbra

Of course it isn't everyone, nor is it every Yank on here bashing your system. Personally speaking though, I remember that farmer guy trying to protect himself from the gyppos and ending up with life in prison.

There are certainly several instigators though...both sides.

Good points but matey shot the young thug in the back as he was running away. Under UK law there was no way to argue that as reasonable force.
I felt for the guy to some extent but I also think he was wrong to shoot the lad in the back once there was no longer a threat.
As I said earlier, I stabbed a burglar years ago and had no action taken against me because the Crown deemed my use of force to be reasonable.

originally posted by: lakenheath24
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Dude that is awesome! Stab a cat, then comfort him till the police get there...RESPECT! So you "stitched " him up eh!

We had a cat out of his hear on booze an drugs on my back deck in Florida. I pulled out my .44 mag and confronted him. He was like shoot me! I didn't of course, but damn, I was shaking like a leaf.

Haha you read my post then!
Yep I was gutted for him, knife was actually through him so I wrapped a clean towel around it all and told him 'you'll be okay, just don't move, I'm calling for help'
I'll never forget that experience, and I'm happy with 'reasonable force' law in the UK, just be reasonable lol, it ain't rocket science.
I bet the old boy in the OP will have 'no further action' shortly after being released, and I bet the cops are treating him really well, they just had to arrest because a life was lost.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy
To be fair to the guy he was a farmer living in an isolated farmhouse, on his own and they had robbed him numerous times before and he was at the end of his tether. He had even booby trapped his house to try and stop them.
Also the surviving criminal tried to sue him for damages after the event.

originally posted by: lakenheath24
a reply to: eNumbra

Of course it isn't everyone, nor is it every Yank on here bashing your system.

American here.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: gortex

Even with it being a business...i've seen shop owners run outside shooting at robbers, killing them, and not have to spend any time being detained over it. They are the victims of violent crime.

Wow so robery is now punishable by death, I myself have been victim of burgalary by a child who was under 18, wish i had my 6 shooter to pop caps in his ass from the boundary of my home, shooting someone in the back, classy

I understand the right to defend ones possesions but should the punishment be death, no questions asked?

a reply to: crayzeed

I agree to some extent, and sympathise for sure, but knowing 'reasonable force' interpretaion in the UK if he was a mate of mine I'd have called him a tool for thinking there was any chance of being deemed 'reasonable' after shooting the lad in the back.
If he'd shot him in the face I imagine he would never have gone to jail.

I think the main issue here is the language being used. He was arrested, which given the connotation of the word itself means he was taken in to custody. Now to my mind that implies some level of legal culpability on his part, that he was somehow in the wrong and summarily arrested. The fact that he was arrested without charge is even more unsettling, at least in the context of how those of us in the states view the word arrest.

Now if the article had stated that the man had been brought in for questioning in order to aid in the investigation of the incident, that holds a completely different tone. Now our UK folks are saying that is what is happening and I have no reason to believe otherwise. It's just the language being used in this situation seems to imply that he is assumed guilty of a crime from the start.

In the states it's obviously quite a bit different depending on the circumstances, most jurisdictions here would see the situation and as long as no other red flags popped up during his on the scene questioning, he would be invited down to the station at a later time to provide a more formal statement, and once again provided no red flags, released. Now if the later investigation proved he was in the wrong, which I think most of us can agree he most likely was not, he would then be arrested.

Just a terminology thing is really what's throwing most people off here, my 2 cents.

a reply to: UpIsNowDown

Robbing me is absolutely punishable by death, if i can catch you in the act.

Consider where our nation came from. People out on the frontier having to worry about ne'er do wells skulking around in the middle of th enight. Not sure if its someone wanting to steal your only mule (and make you unable to plant your families food) or a Comanche that came to raid your home (and kill you and your family).

This is the environment that help draft the culture we live in today.

Now...ill point out that I made a comment on what the law allows. Not what I would do. And in the spirit of the gist of what the folks from the UK have said here...im not sure why you should take so much offense at our laws.

a reply to: Hypntick

Good interpretation, it is massively different here, I even bet the old boy wasn't even handcuffed.
A life was ended, they had to arrest him for recorded interview, scenes of crime forensics, etc.
He'll be treated well and fed n watered, probably released soon, I'd be shocked if the police apply to a court for an extension to hold him over 24 hours.
I'd be shocked if the Crown Prosecution Service charge him, but it depends what he says in police interview, if he's ranting "I plunged it in the scumbag because he deserved it" instead of "I feared for my safety so took the only option I had", then it could cause him potential problems.
Intent is massively important in UK 'reasonable force' interpretation, so I always feared for my safety and have never been angry...for obvious legal reasons.

a reply to: Hypntick

Great post.

There's a presumption that the guy was taken away in anger or that he was dragged from his home. I highly doubt that. The police will have been sympathetic and friendly. They deal with the type of turds who force entry at 3am all the time and won't have been feeling any sympathy for them. No matter what happened, it will have been harrowing for the guy having been forced to defend his home, life and wife and to take another man's life.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

You're right. The farmer shot the burglar after he'd left the property and had his back to him. In the eyes of the Law, it wasn't a defensive move and couldn't be 'reasonable force.' Saying that, I think near everyone in the UK would have let him off with a caution at best.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

You're right. The farmer shot the burglar after he'd left the property and had his back to him. In the eyes of the Law, it wasn't a defensive move and couldn't be 'reasonable force.' Saying that, I think near everyone in the UK would have let him off with a caution at best.

If I'd have been on the jury I would have been adamant not guilty even if the other 11 followed 'the law' and Judge's recommendation. Scumbags shouldn't have terrorised the chap...but I'd still tell him it was a scummy move to shoot him in the back...certainly a stupid move with 'reasonable force' interpretation in the UK. Should have shot him in the face and he prob would be free.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

He'd have been OK if he'd shot the guy inside the house. People at the time suggested he should have moved the body inside before the police turned up.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: UpIsNowDown

Robbing me is absolutely punishable by death, if i can catch you in the act.

Wow dude, I don't think the same, only do I need to remove a threat.
I mentioned the burglar I stabbed earlier, but I was burgled one other time and gave the guy a savage beating instead, didn't even phone the cops with that one just threw him into the street. I never once thought they deserved death fo simple theft.
I still see the guy I beat 20 odd years later, tragic, don't know how he is still alive, been a heroin addict all these years. An emaciated tragic shell of a human.

a reply to: eletheia

I'd venture to guess that anyone, whether 78 or not, tough enough to go one on two with a knife is made out of something a bit sterner than your average mortal...

Sounds like a tough ol' gaffer to me. ...and much respect to him. Sorry it was necessary for him to do such a thing.

a reply to: UpIsNowDown

If they come into my home, without my permission, armed--they're leaving in a bodybag, if I have anything to say about it.

The fact that they're armed means, to me, that they're OK with harming someone in the process of robbing them.

Nope. I'm simply not going to take the chance. I live with two of my sisters and my brother in law, none of which are physically able to defend themselves very well. I can, though I'm not the 25 year old I keep trying to think I am anymore, either.

So anyone coming into my house with intent to burgle is taking their life into their own hands. They can avoid that by staying the # out of my house. It's really very, very simple.

a reply to: seagull

I recall you had a similar incident a few years back...minus the killing.

The aftermath of violent incidents doesn't always play out like armchair warriors imagine. For many, it's traumatic with not so much satisfaction and lots of remorse or even self-doubts. Same with soldiers too. It's why so few want to talk about it with strangers.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

He'd have been OK if he'd shot the guy inside the house. People at the time suggested he should have moved the body inside before the police turned up.

Poor guy messed up to be fair.
To UK members though, if you get nicked for any violent crime the only defence for your use of 'reasonable force' is fear for your safety or the safety of others. When interviewed never ever show any emotion other than fear of the 'thing' that was going down.

I head butted a prick security guard a few years ago who broke my personal space of around 8 inches minimum, was arrested of course, # me half of the guards in town had me cornered with my back to a wall, but big smiles when the cops arrived, they laughed when I said "Thank #, you can rein the rabid dogs in" or whatever.
I was out 3 hours later 'no further action' because I explained how I feared for my safety when the angry guard approached so close, so quickly. I even chuckled with them in the interview that the Crown Prosecution Service will laugh them out of the office if they present it as a case.
Gotta be sharp when interviewed under caution...never ever be angry, only scared...and reasonable lol

a reply to: Kandinsky

I'm curious? If there is a law that makes little sense or that a majority of the citizens are opposed to, what recourse do you have under your system to force those in power to change things? Do you have a way to do and end run around the government and force a referendum that is binding on the government? Can ordinary citizens change the law?

I've been meaning to learn more and this topic made me wonder about that.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
The aftermath of violent incidents doesn't always play out like armchair warriors imagine. For many, it's traumatic with not so much satisfaction and lots of remorse or even self-doubts.

I still have flashbacks of stabbing the burglar, I'll never forget it and the emotions of the experience.
Horrible to be honest. I remember waiting for the emergency services tending to him and saying why the # man, I didn't want to do this to you ffs etc.

a reply to: Blaine91555

Majority vote in Parliament by MP's can draft any new law.
Try getting that majority with current party politics division is another thing though.
They cut free school meals recently and my MP voted for the cut, I wanted to brick the office window, but chose to be abusive on Twitter instead, but careful abuse, words like shameful, and scumbag...you know how it goes in the UK with our pseudo free speech.