Operation Beluga the plan to discredit Putin.

originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: Wayfarer

But that makes zero sense. The world already knew that. Not only is Russia a world-class nuclear power, but they've poisoned plenty of defector-spies with radioactive substances. And if they were putting the world on notice, why the denials? Why ask for evidence? Why would May refuse to turn over evidence?

Not saying Russia can't possibly be guilty. They may well be. Just that the current information is weak, and no evidence has been presented demonstrating their guilt.

I personally don't care either way. Spies (especially defectors or those who are "doubled") are always living on borrowed time. Just interesting to me how far the left is willing to go to push us into war with nuclear-armed Russia. ....while the same forces ignore the immeasurable atrocities committed by communist North Korea, socialist Venezuela, Cuba (some "leaders" even cried when this POS died) etc. Interesting...

No problem with you all going after Russia. But you're also going to go after North Korea and other pariah states.

Because as I pontificated earlier, the fact that nobody knows exactly also plays into Russia's favor. Instead of everyone agreeing that Russia is the big 'bad-ass' assassin nation, we've got a portion of the citizenry of several nations painting their own countries as the perpetrators. Putin absolutely would prefer this to just outright owning the assassination attempt, because it empowers him further by weakening everyone else's resolve and ability to work together in a cohesive manner.

I can appreciate the fact that you can rationalize both sides of the scenario, and I only posit my thoughts because (to me) they feel like the best fit for Occam's Razor.

a reply to: Wayfarer

Wayfarer, I see the logic behind what you are saying here. You could be entirely right, and it certainly would make sense

I would just like to see where the evidence is (or at least that it has been turned over to OPCW) before we let another Iraq war type blunder happen

But I do agree that the uncertainty would play into any such theoretical game Putin is playing (I don't doubt in the slightest he is indeed playing such "games")

Believe me, no love lost there. I think Ksenia Sobchak would've made a much better President than Putin. She's intelligent, dedicated and seems like a pretty honest person. Of course her Playboy model background is a bit different than Putin's KGB days, but I think having someone that doesn't scheme and plot 24/7 in office there would've been a great thing for Russia.

Like other nations, I want to see their people and culture do well. Their government, however, I care for about as much as I do our own Despite the fact I am relatively content with President Trump's administration (despite some minor-moderate critiques on specific issues)

Anyhow, I appreciate the time you are taking to explain your own POV here and engage in this discussion

To be sure, I am all for punishing those who use WMDs to commit acts of murder (including those in our own governments who do similar things, albeit without WMDs usually). I just want to be *sure* we have the right person this time, to avoid another major disaster and blunder like Iraq post-9/11 (which had zero to do with the WTC attacks on 9/11/01)

a reply to: smkymcnugget420


What is blatantly obvious is if I were a security organization who wanted the death of certain individuals, I wouldn't use a nerve agent that had any connection to me or my organization. In fact they would just be suicide statistics, which seems to be the no fuss method these days.

originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: Wayfarer



I would just like to see where the evidence is (or at least that it has been turned over to OPCW) before we let another Iraq war type blunder happen

I think we can all agree on that friend.

but no longer produced in Russia after 1993, as the 2013 Nobel Peace Prize winning Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) has confirmed. Its chemical formula has been made public, which means that at least in theory anyone could produce it.

www.zerohedge.com...

a reply to: smkymcnugget420


My suggestion for what its worth, is that the stuff in its original state would have finished off any one who got near it, but the sample used was probably old and chemically degraded because it hasn't been stored under the correct conditions. This means it has nothing to do with anyone that knows much about it.

originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: smkymcnugget420


My suggestion for what its worth, is that the stuff in its original state would have finished off any one who got near it, but the sample used was probably old and chemically degraded because it hasn't been stored under the correct conditions. This means it has nothing to do with anyone that knows much about it.

An interesting idea. Would you mind sharing the data for this stuff (potency values over time vs degradation) and where they discovered how/where it was being 'stored'?

a reply to: Wayfarer

Under "Disclosure" It seems the stuff got into the criminals arsenal.
en.wikipedia.org...
I think the idea of these things being binary agents, was to mix the two halves prior to using them because the separate halves were more stable. If they were not made under strict conditions they denatured faster. So the stuff obviously has a shelf life. how long I don't know. I don't think the makers knew either.

a reply to: Wayfarer

Under "Disclosure" It seems the stuff got into the criminals arsenal.
en.wikipedia.org...
I think the idea of these things being binary agents, was to mix the two halves prior to using them because the separate halves were more stable. If they were not made under strict conditions they denatured faster. So the stuff obviously has a shelf life. how long I don't know. I don't think the makers knew either.
If the soviets developed this poison, it was at the time undetectable, as a way of getting past the ban on WMD's. If that's the case you can bet the USA did the same and is probably why Monsanto headquarters is like fort Knox. If a mass of human bodies have died from it, its fair to say that it would be pretty pointless if they stayed toxic forever, its effects are filling the lungs up with fluid so you die of asphyxiation. Atropine is the antidote but it has to be closely monitored or the antidote will finish you off as well.