How come liberals don't want to talk about mental health in relation to school shootings?

a reply to: Liquesence

If you treat them correctly, then there is no problem.

You talk as though all mental issues are completely intractable, and if you end up with one, you're totally boned.

So when I was totally, thoroughly miserable and starting to get suicidal ideation as grade schooler because I underwent intense bullying, you are saying that I never was able to recover from that and that I am still just as mentally screwed up today as I was all those years ago, so I should be on the no firearms list for life?

a reply to: amazing


They wont talk about any issue save taking away the right.

a reply to: Liquesence

I think you missed the point or I didn't say it clearly.

Let's not even talk about guns at all or restrictions. I know that discussion comes later. But let's get to the root causes.

Why does someone snap? That question has nothing to do with guns. Why does he kill and lash out?

Is there an underlying mental illness or disorder? A trauma? A Bullying event? Abuse? Those can be addressed with more funding, more councilers, more early interventions more mental health care options, more training, more public service announcments more awaremeness campaigns etc.

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: amazing

I think many are just annoyed because it's like the "all lives matter" thing. Nobody on the right gave a crap about mental health until the NRA started pushing it to discourage any discussion of our gun culture.

For me personally, I don't want to avoid a discussion about mental health but it shouldn't be brought up as a distraction. If you want to discuss it, take a holistic approach and then you won't seem so agenda-oriented.

But how does this seem Agenda Oriented? Isn't mental Health the core issue here? I had to come back here. Are you saying that talking about mental health is the "Agenda Oriented Distraction"? I'm not sure what you're saying. Can you elaborate? Please?

My main point is that Mental Health, Bullying, Abuse, Trauma. This is the issue. This is the Holistic Approach. Arming Teachers, Raising gun buying ages, banning some types of guns or magazines, more elaborate background checks. That could be some good stuff, but that's addressing the symptoms not the actual issue.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Liquesence

If you treat them correctly, then there is no problem.

You talk as though all mental issues are completely intractable, and if you end up with one, you're totally boned.

So when I was totally, thoroughly miserable and starting to get suicidal ideation as grade schooler because I underwent intense bullying, you are saying that I never was able to recover from that and that I am still just as mentally screwed up today as I was all those years ago, so I should be on the no firearms list for life?

Personally, I do not consider simply being bullied as a prerequisite or excuse for the "mental illness" label.

That said, there is no method to correctly treat/cure every form of mental illness.

But I see where you're going: at what point and who decides what is illness, and/or based upon what treatment and/or for what conditions one has had.


Also, I was bullied extensively.

a reply to: amazing

Sorry. I am not trying to poo-poo your thread. Honest.

originally posted by: ABNARTY
a reply to: amazing

Sorry. I am not trying to poo-poo your thread. Honest.

You're bringing up points, you're part of the discussion. It's all good.

Someone just said this thread was a distraction from the real issue though. What is the real issue?

a reply to: amazing

Wow. That was in my first post on your thread.

I have no clue. It's what I get all the time. Folks get upset like you are trying to obfuscate.

originally posted by: amazing
a reply to: Liquesence

I think you missed the point or I didn't say it clearly.

Let's not even talk about guns at all or restrictions. I know that discussion comes later. But let's get to the root causes.

Why does someone snap? That question has nothing to do with guns. Why does he kill and lash out?

Is there an underlying mental illness or disorder? A trauma? A Bullying event? Abuse? Those can be addressed with more funding, more councilers, more early interventions more mental health care options, more training, more public service announcments more awaremeness campaigns etc.

You're trying to dismiss the firearm argument like you accuse liberals of dismissing mental health.

It doesn't work that way. Since firearms are involved, firearms must be included in the debate about mental health, since it is about access to them by people who shouldn't have them. Both must be addressed.

originally posted by: Liquesence

originally posted by: amazing
a reply to: Liquesence

I think you missed the point or I didn't say it clearly.

Let's not even talk about guns at all or restrictions. I know that discussion comes later. But let's get to the root causes.

Why does someone snap? That question has nothing to do with guns. Why does he kill and lash out?

Is there an underlying mental illness or disorder? A trauma? A Bullying event? Abuse? Those can be addressed with more funding, more councilers, more early interventions more mental health care options, more training, more public service announcments more awaremeness campaigns etc.

You're trying to dismiss the firearm argument like you accuse liberals of dismissing mental health.

It doesn't work that way. Since firearms are involved, firearms must be included in the debate about mental health, since it is about access to them by people who shouldn't have them. Both must be addressed.

But shouldn't we separate them and adress each compoment one part at a time? I'm trying to think of an analogy. The root cause first, right? Guns are not the root cause.

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: amazing

Well the obvious way to Improve mental health would be universal health care.

Not really, but at least you tried. Bless your heart.

a reply to: amazing

But shouldn't we separate them and adress each compoment one part at a time? I'm trying to think of an analogy. The root cause first, right? Guns are not the root cause.

Would you consider an obsession with guns and violence a mental illness? I know people like that and they definitely shouldn't have firearms.

a reply to: Liquesence

No, guns don't have to be involved.

Guns do not make you mentally ill anymore than lack of guns will make a mentally ill person suddenly sane.

Mental illness and the lack of a proper system to treat it, including residential facilities in this country, is a completely separate issue.

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: amazing

But shouldn't we separate them and adress each compoment one part at a time? I'm trying to think of an analogy. The root cause first, right? Guns are not the root cause.

Would you consider an obsession with guns and violence a mental illness?

Only if we're looking at violence in all forms, including media - TV, movies, video games, music.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: amazing

But shouldn't we separate them and adress each compoment one part at a time? I'm trying to think of an analogy. The root cause first, right? Guns are not the root cause.

Would you consider an obsession with guns and violence a mental illness?

Only if we're looking at violence in all forms, including media - TV, movies, video games, music.

How about threatening your neighbors or hoping someone gives you some sh!t so you can shoot them; that kind of violence.

Is it possible a person like that might twist off and go postal. It's not unheard of is it?

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: amazing

But shouldn't we separate them and adress each compoment one part at a time? I'm trying to think of an analogy. The root cause first, right? Guns are not the root cause.

Would you consider an obsession with guns and violence a mental illness? I know people like that and they definitely shouldn't have firearms.

Maybe, but that's maybe not what we're talking about. Like only certain people will snap...it's those with mental illness, or that are bullied so much they can't take it anymore, or they've experienced Truama, have no social skills etc.

That's what we need to look at. There are all kinds of studies out there and strategies and succesful schools and countries with less gun violence, like Canada and Switzerland. We should be looking at what they're doing right and copy that.

We don't necessarily have to talk about gun control yet. Those discussions are already going on, anyway. I think we need way more mental health discussion.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: ScepticScot
a reply to: amazing

Well the obvious way to Improve mental health would be universal health care.

Not really, but at least you tried. Bless your heart.

Why not safety nets? Those with Autism, Schizophrenia, Bi-polar, PTST etc. We give them the help they need, regardless of insurance or ability to pay. Universal...mental health care. Just not in the way that Obama did it.

a reply to: amazing

That's what we need to look at. There are all kinds of studies out there and strategies and succesful schools and countries with less gun violence, like Canada and Switzerland. We should be looking at what they're doing right and copy that.

That sort of reflects on our culture doesn't it? Look at our games, sports, TV, movies. Do they tend to be violent?
Answer opposition with violence and win at all cost. Die with your boots on mentality. Pioneer spirit, gunsmoke, the Rifleman, Gunfight at the ok corral, now...Deadspace, Mortal Combat, Medal of Honor, call of Duty, Assians creed etc. Think that might influence the youthful even childlike psyche? Look at little kids on any elementary school playground and tell me how they act.

It's our culture, perhaps we should take a look at that and see if it might, just possibility contribute to mental illness.

Ever been to Europe...Contrast their TV with the US. Big difference.

As a media person, it's not like we haven't researched what sells in the American market.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: amazing

Mental health.

Then there's how the "Media At Large" trains us all to be fame / popularity obsessed sociopaths.

Then there's the popularrity contest at school; the pecking order bs; and bullying.

Then there's the MSM in their methods of reporting turning shooters into celebrities.

SO you get a kid conditioned to be obsessed with being popular / famous. But they get picked n and bullied. SIck of it all. No popularity. But then they see a shooter become famous so they figure F it, I cant be popular, I'm going to get bullied instead, but I can figure out how to get a gun eventually and then I can get even with those punks at school / society in general AND become famous in the process.

I'll bet your buddies dont want to talk about any of that.

So then the MSM frames the whole issue around guns, thats all they want BOTH sides arguing about. Meaning to fall into their snare is to be their unwitting minion tool.

Trying to play catch up in this thread but had to star and respond here. You have hit on something. Media has shown that they will not be declared crazy but given an almost heroic status and the guns will be blamed. For an individual feeling suicidal and loving the idea of getting revenge for assumed abuse...it would seem like a wonderful way to just end it. Teenagers are impulsive to boot. Add in the media icon hood status that they see given... Mentally they feel it is a win win win scenario all around.

Honestly, that is probably the difference between countries. They may not have mass school shootings but the suicides will probably average out to be the same.

gee, I'm kind of liberal and I brought up the mental health aspect of this just today on another thread.
but, those who a mentally ill don't need to have their gun rights taken away, they need to have access to the care and assistance they need. it's only after they get that, that one could determine weather or not any individual should have their right to own a gun taken from them. and some of the danged medicines that they are handing out now days is another aspect of it.
but let's say that we managed to have all of the population evaluated for mental illness and all we getting the best treatment possible, that those that are incapable of functioning in this society were given the assistance they needed to be able to live as freely as possible while still having the help they needed with their day to day activities... and let's say that we had them all correctly diagnosed and knew who shouldn't have possession of a gun...
we would still need to do some work on the system that we have to let the sellers of the guns know who shouldn't be allowed to buy them... because that is another aspect, our system isn't even close to being adequate. we can't classify every person with a mental illness as being too dangerous to own a gun, many are quit harmless and for many a nice hunting trip might be their way of reducing their stress levels.
but, to be honest, there is no sense in discussing the role mental illness plays in the school shootings because we don't seem to want to invest the money into taking care of the mentally ill! how many damaged, mentally ill vets are out there living on the streets? if we can't find it in our hearts to take care of our vets, what chance is there that others will be taken care of?

another aspect of this that I am sure the conservatives don't want to talk about is well.... have yous listened to yourselves lately?? have you listened to your talking heads on tv and you tube videos? I mean, I can hunt down a video by tomorrow at noon of one of your white separatists speaking after the charlottesville riots telling his gang that they are already in a war! and, how many times on just this thread has it been said that all the liberals are mentally ill with minds clouded with drugs? anyone who doesn't support trump as god's gift is the devils spawn according to some of the far right religious talking heads. well, sorry to say this but if you are using your freedom of speech to caste half of our population as being the "enemy" .... then you are feeding into the loonies delusions!
you are just another aspect of this picture!

but, ya, let's talk about mental health. how about we talk about my most recent experience with the mentally ill. she's in a jail cell at the moment. second time in less than two months. she has no home of her own, a coworker took her in after an event of domestic violence forced her to move out of her home. she can be a nice lady by what I hear, and capable of somewhat functioning in the world.... as long as she's on her meds. but well, don't think she stays on them and she drove the coworker out of their own home! for some reason, this homeless lady decided to go spend good money on a tattoo recently. well, then it got infected, staph infection by what I hear. now, mind you, she has never asked me or the person who let her stay at their place to give her a ride to the doctor's or the hospital or anything, no, for some reason all she wants is whiskey and food... and then calls us as holes because we don't being it to her. well, the first time she was in jail, they just let her out, and let her go on her way with no where to go. I am hoping that this time they at least keep her there long enough to treat the danged infection!
there's I talked about mental health... talk is cheap though, funding for mental health care, school counselors, a support system for the mentally ill, well that isn't as cheap!