If God is God, Why. . . ?

a reply to: Agartha

And if everything is part of the plan, how can we have free will? When a pervert abuses a child, is that part of God's plan, is it God's ignoring the child suffering or is it God not knowing what's going on. Which is it?

Offering an opinion but not wanting to anger you.

Most people that I have talked to do not understand the teachings of Christ Jesus, and this includes many Christians. As the Creator created this world it was perfect in that He created in His perfect will. At this time all was perfect but all was not revealed. As mankind rejected the perfect and became imperfect, the Creator still loved what He had created but still all was not revealed.

The Creator then allowed the imperfect creation to remain imperfect knowing that the creation must be taught how to be perfect and yet give the creation the choice to remain imperfect or to become acceptable. This He called His permissive will knowing that He could not force choice. Choice is by each one's acceptance or rejection of the Creator's perfect will and if this were to be forced then it could not be choice. The two are direct opposites and cannot exist as one. The Creator then allowed choice to prevail as a teaching tool for His permissive will but only for a certain period. That period ends in death of the body.

What has that to do with a pervert? God only created one man and that man was perfect and then became imperfect. When Adam and Eve procreated their son, they procreated in the imperfect state of body and mind. That means that the creation became corrupt and exists in the permissive will of the Creator by their choice. As the humans procreated and filled the world with imperfect and corrupt flesh and did not obey the laws of the Father, they then built a world of disease of both the body and mind. God had two considerations. His perfect will which would be to annihilate what He created or His permissive will which was to build His family.

God's perfect will is that all of His creation be healthy and flourish with prosperity but that will never happen in this terrestrial existence because the terrestrial existence is also tainted with corruption. So the solution is to salvage that which can be salvaged and destroy that which cannot be salvaged. Perverts are perverts by choice only. Some can become salvageable by choice and some will never be salvageable by their own choice but it is not by God's perfect will that they are perverts.

Then why are you angry at God for allowing perverts to exist if by choice the pervert became a pervert? It seems as though you want God to do the dirty work for you and prevent the pervert from being a pervert. Why doesn't the blame fall upon the people who allow the pervert to be perverts as well as the pervert being a pervert? Didn't God give you the right of choice the same as He gave the pervert? The same as with disease. Why are people suffering with disease? Simply because the choice of people. People abuse their bodies with war and drugs and by choice will not obey the laws of God and create a race of corruption. Why is that God's fault?

Now what if God zapped a pervert and prevented that person being a pervert. The pervert stands in judgment and is accused of being real bad. What is the perverts defense? Could it be --You never gave me a chance, by choice, to repent and clean my record? Now lets multiply that by trillions of people that have lived. God then is accused of being a killer God. Yeh, all He ever does is go around Killing off all those people He doen't like. Heard that before? Yeh, right here on ATS many times. That old testament god is a mad butcher. All He ever does is go around killing women and babies and old people. Bla, Bla, Bla. Who would want a god like that? Damned if He does and damned if He doesn't isn't it?

originally posted by: Seede
Offering an opinion but not wanting to anger you.

LOL thank you but what upset me about other posters is that they immediately resort to saying I lack comprehension and English skills.

Creator then allowed choice to prevail as a teaching tool for His permissive will

Using innocent creatures as prey? How can this be the only way humans can learn?

Perverts are perverts by choice only. Then why are you angry at God for allowing perverts to exist if by choice the pervert became a pervert?

I am angry at the perverts because they abuse those who are vulnerable and I am angry at your God for allowing such atrocities. You cannot be benevolent and omnipotent and allow such pain and suffering. Your God is uncaring. Your 'benevolent' God is indistinguishable from a hating God.

Why doesn't the blame fall upon the people who allow the pervert to be perverts as well as the pervert being a pervert?

Oh the fault lies on the pervert and on the people who allow them to commit despicable acts. And if your God is real, then the fault lies on him too, for allowing such evil.

I am a mother of three. Would I allow my oldest son to hurt his younger brother so that he could learn that's bad and that he shouldn't hurt others? No, I wouldn't allow him because I love them both the same, and my younger son should not have to suffer to allow his brother to learn a lesson. My oldest son's free will is not more important or more valuable than my younger one's. And that's how it should be with your creator.

The same as with disease. Why are people suffering with disease? Simply because the choice of people. People abuse their bodies with war and drugs and by choice will not obey the laws of God and create a race of corruption. Why is that God's fault?

Because men did not create bacteria and viruses that cause pain and suffering. Because men did not create natural disasters, such as earthquakes. People abusing their bodies through addictions or war is people's fault, no argument. But people killed or maimed through natural disaster are not mankind's fault. Then yes, your 'loving' God allows tornadoes to rip families apart and mudslide to suffocate people and die a horrible slow death. Nothing to do with people's choice, as natural disasters have existed since Earth was formed.

All He ever does is go around killing women and babies and old people. Bla, Bla, Bla. Who would want a god like that? Damned if He does and damned if He doesn't isn't it?

He actually has done that already... your famous global flood? Ring any bells?

And I never suggested God to kill people (let alone babies). What I'm saying is that he should prevent killing, by stopping evil men before they hurt others. Because their victims did NOT choose to be hurt. Or is that what you are saying? Are you saying that a baby chose to be abused?

In reality babies do not choose to be abused, that's forced on them, and if your God really existed and if he really was benevolent, then he would protect the innocent, no doubt about it. Which is why I stopped believing and became an Agnostic/Atheist.

But thank you for your reply, even though I do not have your faith and actually disagree with your thinking, you have shown to be a respectful poster... very mature, and that's great.

a reply to: Agartha

Awaiting for your answer (yours, not another youtube video). 

Excuse the delay. Your question now derived is almost tolerable. But please don't discredit Ravi because I chose to use his video on you tube rather
than texting on my phone. If you were more open
minded you would at least admit by now your question isn't the big conundrum you'd like it to be.
Still you persist and demand It with terms. I can only
assume this is your way of targeting for the ridicule
you and others seem to depend on for comfort in your disbelief.
And I don't blame you. You are right to be so insecure with the lack of answers provided by a belief in nothing and that we are the top of the line in regards to intelligence in this controlled system known as the universe. But hey no worries, even tho i could coin a phrase science likes to use often.
Admitting I don't have all the answers but I am learning more everyday. I'll give it a go by first pointing out how fickle your self righteousness
seems to be. As it makes me wonder why you are
so quick to put responsibility for anyones actions
squarely on the shoulders of someones else no matter who they are. Also doesn't it seem a bit retarded to you that God would command us and
give us laws in accordance to living righteously
with all he has provided? See when you are talking of
God you can't ask if God could stop the bullets? Because the definition of the word God provides your answer. So Yes God could stop the innocent sinless baby from being victimized. Even tho the sinless innosence had nothing to with the attack.
It is at this point I find a big problem with you personally. Why are you so quick to judge a God
Whom you clammer with in disbelief? Yet in the world you can't deny your convictions regarding the
innocent are silent. How many times have you done
anything to keep children safe? How do you know it isn"t Gods calling on your life to make a difference and you in your selfrighteousness and narcissism are a complete failure to your true purpose? Wouldn't that be messed up?

Everything happening today in this world man has created is obviously mans responsibility. Playing
the blame game with a God we chose to exclude
from a relationship for the knowledge of evil.
And cowardly finger pointing as Adam displayed
towards Eve from the get go. This world is the result
that we deserve. That's why it's ignorant to try and blame God for it now.

a reply to: randyvs

You have read the OP right? Chester framed questions, in a manner that you either reject or agree. I'm choosing another option. Why just a singular deity. Your holy text admits that there are multiple deities in places (no other god before me, implies... other gods).

Now your statement "the proof is obvious". IF so, show it, in a clear, unambiguous manner. I am a being of deep faith, not yours. I don't think life is a game, I also don't agree that its what you Abrhamic types think it is either. To me its a cycle.

a reply to: Noinden

You need serious help comprehending Gods word
before you make any more choices in this life at all.
As per " No other God before me" is a commandment being made to Gods people. Living in a world obsessed with replacing the one true God
by worshipping man made idols. Gods made of stone. So no you 're just completely wrong thinking it
says other Gods exist.

And thru my eyes its the most obvious everyday
Gorilla in the room.

originally posted by: randyvs
Admitting I don't have all the answers but I am learning more everyday.

I believe none of us has all the answers, but it's really helpful to know your limit so that you won't make the same error the other poster did. Jesus teaches humility.

originally posted by: randyvs Also doesn't it seem a bit retarded to you that God would command us and
give us laws in accordance to living righteously
with all he has provided?

I think it is more retarded that God leaves us copies of copies of bad translations manuscripts and fragments that could be interpreted in many ways, causing segregations and confusion for more than 2 thousands years. If god is so adamant to enforcing his Laws ( as he did in past ), then where is His preserved words, the autograph or the original copies? Why is He no longer vengeful and brutal to preserving his own text? Why allow anonymous heretical gentiles and imposter Jews to make addition, alteration and more lies to His words? If god really want to command us to follow his Laws, he would have done so. He already proven it in the past, and we have seen million people died by his will. So why abandon us now, scratching our head with thousand of leftover obsolete ancient fragments, no language today can comprehend with absolute certainty?

originally posted by: randyvs
God you can't ask if God could stop the bullets? Because the definition of the word God provides your answer. So Yes God could stop the innocent sinless baby from being victimized. Even tho the sinless innosence had nothing to with the attack.

God can't protect his own Jerusalem temple, let alone stop bullet or save babies. He can't protect His own son. Not that I blame him. I understand his intention, and I'm not asking him to. But I'm curious about the change of his behaviour. From active vengeful brutal god, he has become so passive, forgiving and withdrawn. What happen to YHWH EL-ELOHIM?

Please do not refer to ancient texts. Ancient people do not understand 21st century people's dilemma.

originally posted by: randyvs
Everything happening today in this world man has created is obviously mans responsibility.

I agree it's men own responsibility. It's good to know that god finally leaves us with our own accountability. It's good to know that the OLD MAN has finally comes to his sense and stop shouting from cloud or whipping our ass with global natural disaster and wars. But it also break my heart that he leaves us with nothing but thousands of copies of copies of copies of thousand variants incomplete ancient fragments and manuscripts, which is open to million stupid interpretation. I guess the age of information is too much for ancient people to comprehend.

In short, men are left with their own responsibility. That's fine with me. But why leaves void and blank to millions people who seek to know him without the hindrance of understanding ancient scientific illiterate vague scriptures?

a reply to: randyvs

YOUR God is not MY god. My Gods, expect me to own my own choices. I've studied the bible (several different versions thanks), along with Jewish and Islamic texts. Buddhist texts, the Hávamál, The Vedas, and the Homeric hymns. I personally prefer Lebor Gabála Éren and Metrical Dindshenchas.

So again, prove that yoru deity is the one true god (tm) thanks.

“For great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; he is to be revered above all gods”

Seem familiar? Above all gods. The phrase thus shows that your deity, has an ego problem and does not like polytheism. Which while is its choice, still means there are other gods. Your deity is thus not the "one true deity" (R) but rather one of many choices.

quod erat demonstrandum

So I am still awaiting you (that means you randyvs_) to show this obvious proof.

a reply to: randyvs

So no you 're just completely wrong thinking it
says other Gods exist.

Uhm... It does say there is a "god" of this world...

So ya, it does say other gods exist...

And unfortunately the OT god proves to be incompetent and at times oblivious to his own supposed creation

a reply to: EasternShadow

I was pointing to God given laws for men
to live by becoming moot. As a direct result
of God bitch slapping even a baby raper to
disallow his choice to do evil. This isn't the
world God intended for us. We chose this
world when we chose evil. And typically there
are people now just as they were then. Turn
and blame God for it anyway.

The god of this world does not compare
to the Creator God of the universe our Father
In Heaven. Definitely limited and again only
allowed by our choice. But if anyome chooses
to go running off thinking this favors thier
prejudice and contempt for God? Not much
a do about it here. Knock yourself out!
Sure haven't changed anything for me tho.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: EasternShadow

I was pointing to God given laws for men
to live by becoming moot. As a direct result
of God bitch slapping even a baby raper to
disallow his choice to do evil. This isn't the
world God intended for us. We chose this
world when we chose evil. And typically there
are people now just as they were then. Turn
and blame God for it anyway.

Adam choose this world. Not me. Not you. Not everyone else. We are the victims of Adam's mistake. We are corrupted by evil simply because we are born into an evil cursed world. God is the one who cursed this land the day Adam was casted out.

Don't you think it's unfair for us? Surely you could understand why some people become frustrated and blame god for everything? I believe Jesus understand it very much. He never complain while being tortured, dragged and cruxified to his death.

originally posted by: randyvs
The god of this world does not compare
to the Creator God of the universe our Father
In Heaven. Definitely limited and again only
allowed by our choice.

What do you mean? Are you hinting there are more than one god?

But if anyome chooses
to go running off thinking this favors thier
prejudice and contempt for God? Not much
a do about it here. Knock yourself out!
Sure haven't changed anything for me tho.

Jesus would came to the temple and risk his life to deliver his father's words. I am disappointed that you are not willing to follow the path of Jesus. But it's OK. At least, you can tolerate and respect the free will of other people.

Thanks for your opinion.

a reply to: EasternShadow

My views on the subject provide good
reasoning towards understanding Gods
word in opposition to willfully negative
bias to the truth i see in scripture. So it's
a bit more than an opinion.

No i don't see anything unfair at all
in Gods dealing with us. He's provided his
Word as both counsel and even sacrifice for
our redemption.
And your finger pointing to Adam. Is the same
as Adams finger pointing to his own wife.
And all the finger pointing to God himself we
see right here. How can you say it's unfair
when it's obvious he was right? As I recall
God was willing to work with the first couple
even after they trangressed. Right up to the
cowardly finger pointing. Seems to me we
are still cowards. But some of us are work'n
on it when others should be.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: EasternShadow

My views on the subject provide good
reasoning towards understanding Gods
word in opposition to willfully negative
bias to the truth i see in scripture. So it's
a bit more than an opinion.

No i don't see anything unfair at all
in Gods dealing with us. He's provided his
Word as both counsel and even sacrifice for
our redemption.
And your finger pointing to Adam. Is the same
as Adams finger pointing to his own wife.
And all the finger pointing to God himself we
see right here. How can you say it's unfair
when it's obvious he was right? As I recall
God was willing to work with the first couple
even after they trangressed. Right up to the
cowardly finger pointing. Seems to me we
are still cowards. But some of us are work'n
on it when others should be.

OK, so you are saying we all need to be responsible for Adam's mistake, even though we never transgress God's instruction at Eden, since you believe no one should be blamed. But why actually? Men should be accountable for their own action, isn't that you wrote earlier?

I understand it's useless to point out fingers now. But this "fate" could have been easily avoided, if god doesn't blame ALL humanity for the transgressions of a pair of human. I understand, it's may be beyond my limited mind to understand god. But if we don't try, then how could we know god? If we cannot know god, then how can we love HIM? So, we know we have been predestined to live in this cursed world. We know god plan this. We know we are meant to suffer until we redeem ourselves. But is it worth it? Considering we're not the one who offend god in the first place, why would you think humanity be motivated to abide god's words? when humanity have been judged and punished even before they're born, why do you think humanity would accept god? Evilness doesn't exist by itself. It is derived from somewhere. Sometime from within, sometime from without.

You said God was willing to work things out. I understand what you mean, but what's the point? God can not communicate his words properly. All we have now is nothing more than copies of of copies of copies of thousands bits ancient fragmentation manuscripts, no one could translate properly.

a reply to: EasternShadow

But is it worth it? Considering we're not the one who offend god in the first place, why would you think humanity be motivated to abide god's words?

But that is where most people are dead wrong. Everybody that has ever lived has offended God including you and me. Not one guy that has ever been born has ever got it right. Adam and wife got it wrong. The Serpent got it wrong. Adams kids got it wrong and their kids got it wrong and all the kids from their kids have gotten it wrong. Everybody has offended God and not one guy in trillions has not sinned.

That is the problem with all people who think they are a cut above the other guy. Everyone throws rocks at Adam for being a slob and they can't see that they are slobs too. Everybody is a slob. That's why Jesus told the slobs to cast the first stone at the woman who admitted she was a slob. At least she was an honest slob and that is credit due her. But what about the other slob who was not seen or named? I guess he was a cut above her?

Why does everyone die because of Adam and Eve? We don't die because of Adam and Eve. We die because we all ate from that same tree that Adam and Eve ate from. We all offend God and the reward of sin is death. Just as Adam sinned so we all have sinned and not one guy, since Adam, has never sinned and not one guy that will be born will not sin. All life forms have offended God and all life forms reap that which we sow. Jesus loves all slobs that will admit they are slobs and want to do something about it. You know, like saying forgive me for being a slob.

a reply to: Agartha

Oh the fault lies on the pervert and on the people who allow them to commit despicable acts. And if your God is real, then the fault lies on him too, for allowing such evil.

First of all, I want to thank you for being there for the boys. They really need a good loving mom and they are lucky that you are a good mom. But one day mom won't be there for them or maybe they wont be there for mom. Then what? I know that you want the answers and I know that the answers are there if you can see them.

Now Agartha, I would like to hear what your answer would be if I were to ask you just where did evil come from? Would you be surprised to learn that evil was a creation by God? Yep. God did it and you are right on when you say that God allows that which He created.

Isaiah_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Wow, this God did allow evil after all. But why would a loving God create evil? If there were no evil then there would be no perverts so God is to blame for having perverts. So what if God did not create evil? If God did not create evil then the creation would be free from all sin and from all knowledge of sin. Everybody would do as they please and never know right from wrong. Now I did not say that people would not do wrong but I did say that people would not know wrong. Adam was in that same boat. He knew how to procreate, understand language and dress the garden but he did not know the ramifications of realizing wrong.

Evil is the opposite of love and without opposites we have no laws. We simply would go about doing that which was programed for us to do. God could have programed us with no choice but to simply obey His desires but where would be the sense in that? That would be like visiting a toy shop. Can a toy love us and become a procreated family of love?

So how can you get a family to love you? Well first of all they must have choice to love or choice to evil. God had to present opposites in order to make a laws. Hot and cold is one law that we all understand and it must be understood in many ways. Extreme's of either can be evil to our flesh and obeying its laws can be pleasant to our flesh. understanding this law of physics is a must for our benefit and it is applied in a thousand different ways. What if there was not that law?
Well, if that law of opposites did not exist then we could not build what we enjoy today.

Let's take behavior as we are on that subject. Without the law of evil the so called pervert would not be a pervert as you understand the word to mean today. The pervert would simply do as he pleases or become programmed to do as the Creator has programmed. To eliminate the actions of a pervert, there would certainly be no law of choice and it would have to be a programed toy. Now in your case you would not have your children as they are today and they would not have you as they do today. You would be a programmed creation with out the knowledge of love.

You must have opposites in order to have hate and love. That is a law and that comes through choice. Hate is evil and love is of God even though God created evil in order to give you choice of love. How can God give you love if evil did not exist? It's impossible. You must have opposites in order to have reality. Where does all of this lead us? The entire purpose of God creating us is that He so loved His creation that he offers eternal existence if we overcome hate with love. How do we do this? By Choice. And why by Choice? Because there is no other way to know love. It's a law of love by choice and you cannot show hate without knowing love. -- lol

a reply to: EasternShadow

May I say EasternShadow i appreciate the respect and the reserve you' ve shown this conversation. I
believe you are genuine.

To be sure keep in mind the answers I give your questions. Are my own truth and given only to
show my understanding and my own sense of
It all. But mostly that it does make sense, it can
be understood and that it is worthy by it's depth
alone.
I decided for myself very long ago very young
at the age of ten. That atheism was just the
most ridiculous copout in mans existence. I have seen nor heard anything to disuade me from that
conclusion. In fact the stereotype atheist has
productively re enforced that conclusion.
I've quite simply lived almost 50 years of my
life open to anything that might make more
sense. Share more detail more truth historically.
I still with open mind would investigate anything brought to my attention by anyone saying look here
this is a better truth, a better discription of the
Supreme being. Or look this makes way more
sense. Absolutely nothing comes close to
the depth I find in scripture. And that is just me
being honest with myself.

a reply to: Seede

I really enjoyed reading your last transmissio
to Agartha. Balance

a reply to: Noinden

YOUR God is not MY god

Do you have a better one? Why don"t you share..?

a reply to: Specimen

1) all your questions are clearly answered in the OP it seem only semantics is keeping you and others form seeing it.

2) Snake is not a serpent. A point I make often, yet people have not taken the time to figured out what it means, is this. Things that are not equal are not the same.

3) You are correct in this imperfect sinful world, God has completely destroyed and started over, Gen 1:2 a flood that destroyed the throne Lucifer was trying to exalt and usurp the throne of God. You mistake is thinking as most modern so called Christian scholars is that it was just pride. An usurpation is outright war/physical struggle against the one being usurped, not a benign issue of pride (reread Isa 14:12-14 AKJV). Gen 6-8 God flooded out all the world at that time because not only was mankind (giants, Cyclops) corrupted by the sons of God, but so were the animals, Centaurs, Satyrs, Reptiles and so forth (some recorded around the word in prehistorical art, some in the mythologies of the world). But after the second flooding out he promises never to use water again, then he records it will be by fire, when that happens then he has to create a NEW HEAVEN and a NEW EARTH Rev 22.

4) Satan is his own being and must pay for his own sin, just like Adam did, just like Eve did and how Adam's sinfulness was passed down to us. But for the last, circa 2010 years, God has already made a way that made it possible by his grace through our faith on Christ to receive as a gift salvation from the penalty of sin.

Though Satan, the ol' Devil, has already been judged he has not been punished, for a short time 1,000 years, he is placed in solitary confinement in chains in a bottomless pit (Rev20), then he is released for a season (3 months) he rallies his troops form among the nations a second time since the first failed attempt at Christ 2nd advent (still to come) uniting the nations against Christ again only to fail and through us immediately into judgement as seen in Revelation 20.

It is not about anyone being made and example of. That is how men think. God is not a man, except in his human form as Jesus Christ, The Angel of the Lord, the LORD of HOST, The WORD, the KING of Kings and Lord of lords.

originally posted by: Seede

How can you say that? We are not even exist when God cursed Adam. How does a sin of a parent can be justified to a son?

How can you eat the forbidden fruit when you are not yet born?

We are not Adam. We are who we are, just like God is who HE is.

We make mistakes in our life, sure. That's normal.
We are being slobs, sure. That's normal.
The prostitue was a slob, sure. That's normal.
But she was a slob for being a prostitue. Not because of other causes. We are being slobs for what we have done. Not because of what our parents did.

But that is not what I was referring to. I was referring to the first sin, to take the guilt of something we have never done, and that is wrong.

I ask you a simple question. If God accused you for broken His law by eating the fruit he forbade at Eden some thousand years ago, will you admit it?

If you want to take the guilt of others, that's fine with me. But I'm very sure majority of people do not agree with you. No one would want to be burdened by other people's wrong from the moment they are born.

You see the problem of evil is that, we are a cursed creation walking on a cursed land and was meant to suffer until we redeem ourselves. God created this evil out of his love, yet we keep debating why we commit evil. And that bring back to Agartha's question about why god allow the innocent babies to suffer. The answers is, it is meant that way. It is meant that all human has to suffer since the creation of this cursed world. And yes, it is evil thing to do. We are here not to enjoy our life. But to suffer the mistake of the first human, as forseen by god. And yes we continues to rebel and commit evil, until the last day of this planet because, what is written will prevail no matter what.

Technically it is god's fault. It is god's will. I believe god knows that. That is why He sent Jesus to be tortured and crucified to death, as his sacrifice lamb.


Like randyvs said, God was willing to work it out.

And yet.. Here we are. Facing dilemma with many denominations, interpretation, multitude's belief and gods etc... Each claim they are the one and only truth. Yet no one can prove each other right or wrong.

So where does it leaves us?

a reply to: randyvs
I believe you are being honest too, and I can understand your position. I appreciate your thought.


Thank you randyvs.

It's a pleasure to have this discussion with you.