Cave paintings and jewelry deemed too old to be made by Homo Sapiens

a reply to: one4all

I agree we go through cycles of destruction and rebirth as such, from what I understand of the Mayans they left evidence the cycle was around 5000 years.

Anyhow if times up, we may as well enjoy what time we have because when it breaks down it's going to be a meager existence for the survivor's.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: one4all

I agree we go through cycles of destruction and rebirth as such, from what I understand of the Mayans they left evidence the cycle was around 5000 years.

Anyhow if times up, we may as well enjoy what time we have because when it breaks down it's going to be a meager existence for the survivor's.

Yes and no......yes some few people will be in sufferage....but not many...most will be gone.....any DUMBs that survive will be well equipped to restart society on every level in small areas .

Consider that ALL Emergency Shelters which are not underground in bedrock and waterproof will fail....consider that massive DUMBS will also fail....consider that most Continents will be buried under water then mud from Mountain to Valley.

The vast majority of people who survive the prime event will be spread willy-nilly across the planet absolutely displaced with no resources under the most extreme conditions....meaning without food water or medical supports or shelter the MAJORITY of survivors of the initial event will perish within days to weeks....the Mad Max scenario will never happen...you might need guns to protect yourself from hungry carnivores and desperate animals trying to survive but in all likelihood you will not see any humans possibly for most of your remaining life.....they will be so few and far between.

Yes ...many many will fold their hands and just let it happen...it depends on what you plan for and wish for....personally I am planning for long term education and survival of Family and a few others beyond my own mortal lifetime be it days weeks months years or decades.

If you happen to know any multi-millionaires who are willing to fund my preperations I am willing to teach them the hows whats whens and wheres of survival...and NO ONE ONLINE is anywhere near the key points....only the Royal Family to my knowledge have hedged their bets in the right places....sooooo....if you are worth 30-40 million or simply enough to give me a couple million so we can prepare equally and for enough people....PM me.

a reply to: one4all

I wish you luck, I do know a few millionaires, problem is they spend all their time in the pursuit of making more money and they have no time for end of the world type of scenarios .

As another poster said on another thread some time ago..... We need to throw out the "established time line".

At this point, we're like the clergymen from a thousand years ago, holding on to the belief that the Earth is flat.

With all of the evidence we have of lost civilizations, missing species, stories and evidence of natural disasters, etc, it's much much more logical that there have been multiple rises and falls of civilization. It's like we're taking all 3 reboots of the Spiderman movies and trying to put them all on a single timeline. It's stupid, it doesn't make sense, it doesn't work, no matter how hard you try.

originally posted by: dothedew
As another poster said on another thread some time ago..... We need to throw out the "established time line".

At this point, we're like the clergymen from a thousand years ago, holding on to the belief that the Earth is flat.

With all of the evidence we have of lost civilizations, missing species, stories and evidence of natural disasters, etc, it's much much more logical that there have been multiple rises and falls of civilization. It's like we're taking all 3 reboots of the Spiderman movies and trying to put them all on a single timeline. It's stupid, it doesn't make sense, it doesn't work, no matter how hard you try.

I wonder who has done up a timeline of the "reboots" if anyone.

I guess without hard data on dating things it would be hard to do.

a reply to: 727Sky

Denisovian perhaps? Denisovians were contemporary with Neanderthals and homo sapien, I believe they have found a bracelet of denisovian manufacture in a Siberian cave.

originally posted by: 727Sky
It seems the more we discover about the Neanderthals the more we find out the were not just a bunch of brutish spear chucking, cold weather, guys who evidently had some females who homo-sapiens found attractive; if some of the latest ancestral homo sapien DNA results are to be believed.. Cave art and shells for adornment sounds like they were doing more than chasing a bunch of mega fauna around for supper..

“This is an incredibly exciting discovery which suggests Neanderthals were much more sophisticated than is popularly believed.”

The shell jewelry, found in Cueva de los Aviones, Cartagena, was dyed and pierced ready for adorning to other items or ‘stringing together’ is believed to date back 115,000 years.

The established archeological beliefs put these dates before modern humans were in the area.. So conclusion is.... it must have been the Neanderthals ?
www.theolivepress.es...

Most likely Neanderthals, though we know that H. Erectus also had jewelry and decoration. I think it would be interesting if it were proven Neanderthal.

Chauvet is overwhelming. To become artists like those of Chauvet Neanderthals or Homo sapiens must have practiced so much that geologists would have found hundreds of less beautiful art. That's simply not the case. This is a good find but it just makes clear that Neanderthals or maybe Homo sapiens or even clever monkeys could think symbolic. Due to their physical limitations they must have had a certain advantage to (other) animals to survive the struggle of life. In my opinion Chauvet remains a total mystery.

a reply to: 727Sky

“This is an incredibly exciting discovery which suggests Neanderthals were much more sophisticated than is popularly believed.”

Popular belief of what, Humans were more primitive the further back we go , because life evolved from electric mud puddles?

The only ones promoting that are the evolutionists. Watch how loud they outshout any other opinion.

originally posted by: scraedtosleep
a reply to: 727Sky

Or maybe modern humans have been around much longer than we realize?

Or maybe we've had multiple developed civilizations come and go already. Fallen to wars or disease.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: 727Sky

Interesting find although I never bought into the belief that Neanderthals were stupid and uncultured

You obviously have not met the ones on my estate...

Seriously, if this is true it throws some serious spanners in the how was XYZ created if we now know the Neanderthals were a lot more human like than we first imagined.

originally posted by: RAY1990
Why do we humans have to be so special?

Because of all the large hominids, we're the last ones standing (sorry, Bigfoot). Also, we've been pretty clever at a number of things, most notably our ability to communicate our thoughts to each other beyond death without having to rely on instinct. That's a huge advantage over other critters.

a reply to: 727Sky

I'm curious why all cave paintings look like they were drawn by a 5 yr old. You never have one where you go hmmmmmm that was a good artist. If you took the time to decorate your walls and the best you can come up with is stick figures there's a problem.

a reply to: gortex

Yes Koolaid...

Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health. Lawyers destroy justice. Universities destroy knowledge. Governments destroy freedom. The major media destroy information and religions destroy spirituality. ~ Michael Ellner

To believe that Science 'Fiction' deserves a free pass while medicine, justice, education, governments, media, religion are ALL corrupt is sheer insanity.

To quote vasaga: "Science is no longer serving the purpose of discovering truth".

He created an excellent thread on this: Scientism: The worship of modern mainstream science

originally posted by: vasaga
It has come to light that modern day science is no longer being looked at objectively. Its achievements have clouded our minds. It has gone so far, that we are blindly trusting in it, and are following it just like people following a religion. Science is no longer serving the purpose of discovering truth. It has become the main method of control. We should live our lives as if we are scientists ourselves, and not fall into the religion of scientism.

"...the Illuminati eventually controlled the science departments in all colleges and institutions of higher learning. The plan was to stifle scientific knowledge and then twist what was left to fit the science they wanted the people to believe.

Science - The Illuminati Religion and Mind Control Tool for the Masses

How do you know if you have fallen prey to the cult of 'Scientism'? Answer this question: Can you differentiate between the collective human understanding of 'how' things work in our material world, and the 'why' of how they came to be that way. (or even why it does what it does at all.) Those are two very different questions, that scientists, (who frequenty are very bad philosophers,) often get mixed up. Never forget that 'science' can be as abused for the sake of religious or anti-religious preconceptions as equally as the Bible can be, on both sides of a debate.

This becomes readily obvious when you investigate the unquestioned assumption that most Atheist-leaning scientists tenaciously hold on to as their 'modus operandi'. One way to state this foundational belief is: "Only statements that are verifiable through a scientific method can be held as truth, or objectively knowable."

Now anyone, who has taken a moment to study Epistemology, [the study of how rational thought might determine truth,] should immediately notice the logical fallacy of the above statement. And hopefully those with some common sense might spot it also.

Combating the cult of "Scientism."

"Blinded by Science" This card basically is a depiction of blinding people through the notion that a thing is false if it cannot be explained by science. Its like making science look like the real thing. Many empty headed people buy into it and that allows the corrupt science groups (controlled by illuminati as shown in the card) to publish false stuff.

More on the paintings, as they are a bit more complex than one might figure. Interesting they are found within the cave, outside of their normal realm of habitation.

a reply to: 727Sky

Or maybe our dating system doesn't work as well as we think it does...

originally posted by: stormcell

originally posted by: buddha
Or some thing humans are to arrogant to admitted!
That the ones who made them do Not come
from any branch of the human tree!

Neaderthals brains were larger than modern day humans. But that might be due to more interconnects between brain regions, larger arteries, larger meninginal regions or more white matter.

Their cranial capacity was, on average, slightly larger than our own but the lower end of Neanderthal CC had overlap with the high end of our own CC so there wasn't a huge difference. It's also important to note that cranial capacity has a direct correlation with body mass in mammals.

While not quite as tall as we are, they had much more mass than we do, particularly muscle which is considerably more dense than the other soft tissues. It's also recently been discovered from endocranial casts that Neanderthal had a significantly larger visual cortex.

The most likely explanation for the different organizational structure if the Neanderthal brain is an adaptation to the darker, gloomier ecological niche that was Eurasia along with shorter days/less daylight than their African cousins were used to living with. This also explains why their eyes were, on average, larger than ours and spread a little farther apart than ours are as well.

So while their cranial capacity was slightly larger than ours, the structure of and the way their brain was organized was quite different than our own. Typically, if more room is utilized to improve one region of the brain means that you've got to give up something else to compensate. What exactly this give and take fully consisted of is still unknown. One of the fun things about Paleoanthropology is that the more answers we find, the more new questions arise from these discoveries.

With modern day humans, the more you use a particular brain region, the denser it becomes. With taxi drivers, the hippocampus enlarges as they memorize all the different routes in a city.

I read that paper a few years ago (I'm assuming you're referencing the study of London Taxi drivers 7 or 8 years ago?). It was pretty interesting that the drivers who passed their qualifications (for those who don't know, London has the most difficult and insane taxi driver certification in the known world and it can take 3-4 years to complete) had, compared to non-drivers, more grey matter in the posterior hippocampus and less in the anterior hippocampus.

The other interesting thing about that particular study was that while better at London based memory tasks, they actually performed more poorly on any other memory tasks utilizing visual information.

Perhaps as hunter-gatherers, they memorized hundreds of square miles of land terrain, animal and weather sounds, best hunting strategies for each area, where to find shelter, fish, building materials, other hunter-gatherers would would frequent that area.

It's certainly not outside the realm if possibility. They were seasonal hunter gatherers, moving every few weeks or months following the game and back to slightly warmer climates (during the LGM, warmer is a rather relative concept. It's not like someone from Maine flying to the Bahamas. Not even close). We know that the same shelters were reused and revisited, in some cases, for 10's of thousands of years.

There are a couple of sites in the Levant for example, where everyone from H. Erectus to Neanderthal to H. Sapiens and possibly other contemporary members of our genus used the same shelter over an extremely long period of time.

You're not going to be able to follow herds of animals over huge swaths of geographical terrain and find your way back to the same seasonal shelters, the sake sources of edible plants or the good spots to find supplies for creating lithics time and time again without being able to remember the geography.

Personally I don't understand why people think that it's taught or a part of any curriculum, that Neanderthal were intellectually inferior, grunting brutes. Because outside of cartoons or comedies or other aspects of pop culture, I've never encountered this stereotypical trope yet it's repeated in threads on ATS quite often.

To build on your thought pertaining to the Neanderthals ability to memorize large tracts of geographical areas, they are extremely likely to have mastered sailing long before "we" made our first tenuous steps outside of Africa. There are several island, including Malta, that we find Mousterian lithics and Neanderthal remains and even at the height of the LGM when sea levels were lowest, these islands were still not only impossible to reach without a boat, they were not visible from dry land. This means that the Neanderthal could craft a sea worthy vessel and had at least rudimentary navigation skills. Not quite the accomplishment of people who did nothing but grunt and hit women over the head with a club before dragging them back to their cave.

There is a site in the Levant that shows long term use (in the range of tens of thousands of years) by both Neanderthal and H. Sapiens. Some interesting aspects of this site are that the Mousterian lithics used by the Neanderthal were actually superior to those of the H. Sapiens leaving Africa. Over time, the H. Sapiens began to make the more complex Mousterian tools.

There are a couple of options here. One is that the Sapiens copied the Mousterian lithics. Another, more controversial hypothesis is that the Neanderthal taught the Sapiens. There's no way to know for sure. Both species were found over a lengthy period of time with periods of overlap in the strata. Because the nature of the various Radiometric dating methods used, there's no way to get a super specific date like "March 12th 47,286 BPE" . The closest we're going to get is within decades and that is the most optimistic outlook possible. It all depends on the method used and the age of the material sampled.

The point being, we can show that both species occupied the same site at roughly the same tim periods for a period of X thousand years (I'm going by memory and don't want to give incorrect info hence the variable X) but we can't say for sure that it was exactly the same time and that there was not just admixture, but cohabitation.

Again, it's hypothesis based on decent educated guesses and circumstantial data. In addition to the newly arrived H. Sapiens adoption of Mousterian lithics and use of the same sites but they also buried their dead together and with similar grave goods. That to me, doesn't seem like the practice of people who are foreign to each other. Instead, it looks like there was at least some familiarity if not closer relationships. Perhaps even familial bonds in cases where admixture was in play.

To kind of tie my hypothetical meanderings back in with the OP... The fact that prior to contact with H. Sapiens, Neanderthal had begun the practice of burying their dead along with grave goods and in some cases covering or painting the person in red ochre. Whether or not there was spiritual significance is a big question mark. But this is a big jump from the unceremonious body dump at Sima de Los Huesos to burying the dead with the appearance of reverence, respect and ceremony at that magnitude. And this occurs at sites from Portugal to The Levant and Iraq.

a reply to: 727Sky

Culturally speaking, everything we attribute to modern man as a result of higher brain functions such as language, was learned from older hominids.

Sorry "evolved brain" people.

a reply to: peter vlar

peter v,

I know I always appreciate yout input into matters such as these, the rest of y'all should as well, because this guy knows what he is talking about.
I remember reading about one of the spanish sites, some 30+ years ago, where the remains of a neanderthal boy were found buried with a fully articulated wolf. The wolf was old and didnt appear to have been killed through hunting, and if memory serves me correctly, one was buried before being dug up and reburief with the other.
Both were covered in flowers and ochre, I seem to remember that it dated to a 200k.
The association of reverence between the animal and the boy always stuck with me.
And it does contrast with the work from germany?showing that one group was using the bones of its dead to make tools, or the group in belgium that treated their dead no differently than prey animals.

a reply to: peter vlar

Fantastic analysis. Although I will admit, Amud 1 is quite fascinating.