Woman killed after being bitten in throat by pet pit bulls

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: schuyler

I suspect you are capable of a reasonable conversation, given your post history..

There are some good points in your post, however, when it comes to determining cause, it can only be done through extensive study. Nit of statistics or news reports, but the actual dogs themselves.

Now, to be clear, I am an unabashed apologist, but that only became true after working with thousands upon thousands (literally) of canines of all breeds. Interestingly, the most hostile tended to be some type of lab x heeler mix, though that's only tangential.

Anyway, many of the breeds that fall under the "pit bull" blanket term were indeed bred for fighting other dogs. In the infancy of this "sport" it wasn't to the death as most know it to be now, though it was still certainly brutal.

In order to cater the genes to this purpose, they were bred for dog aggression without human aggression or redirection of any kind. The handler needed to be able to go in and grab their dog without any chance of redirection. This is very specific, specialized behavior that had many intended and unintended consequences.

Fast forward to today, where a large segment of prospective owners want them for human aggression. A properly bred "pit bull" is completely ill-suited for this, and there are only two ways to change that: behavior modification (i.e abuse) and breeding, both of which will need to go against many, many generations of well-established genetic profiles. These competing, highly conflicted behavioral, genetic profiles lead to.. well.. what we have today. AFAIK, its the only example of selective breeding that is not only against well established genes, but in direct conflict with them.

In my opinion, the domesticated canine is our most long term and deliberate glimpse into eugenics. There is a responsibility there, with severe consequences for getting it wrong. This is also one of those topics where many think they are an expert. Its fascinating how some topics precipitate that behavior and others don't, but obviously that's a completely separate discussion.

TL;DR: The situation we see today is the direct result of breeding for deeply conflicting genetic and behavioral profiles. With blatantly predictable result in absolutely any breed. The solution isnt to make the end result more taboo through banning and making them pariahs, since that directly contributes to the intent of the improper breeding.

The ideal goal would be to educate about proper breeding, and instill the proper outlook on the responsibility that bestows.. but we probably all know how unlikely that is.

Honestly, I'm not sure what the best approach might be, but I do think there are things that should be avoided. Essentially, we are dealing with two divergent profiles of the "same" breeds. One of which has behavioral profiles that are in massive, direct conflict which leads to unstable personalities at the very least.

I had a buddy who used to fight pitbulls. He was all into it. His backyard looked like a Gold's Gym for dogs. They had a diet that would make athletes jealous. He had underground newsletters with info on fights, etc. It was kind of crazy reading as you would have seriously thought they were talking about a Mayweather fight if you didn't know it was about dog fighting.

I can attest to your post as he mentioned many of the same things. The fights weren't "too the death", the dogs were trained to submit and trained not to bite people. The other thing that was surprising was that his "game dogs" were actually kind of small and lean. Maybe 30-40lbs. They weren't these massive steroided 100lb hulk looking pitbulls with the freakishly massive heads.

To be clear, I don't condone it but it wasn't as brutal as I was led to believe. He did mention there are some fighting circuits that are definitely brutal, but whatever circle he was involved in wasn't into that.

Its rarely the dog and almost always the owner...

Either not being able to handle the power of a large dog... or lack of understanding the dog's needs

Or simply lack of training with a powerful breed

tragic situation... but im sure there was a reason

Folks across the road from me have a pit. I told him, when the dog breaks the plane of my driveway....I'm gonna drop it like it's hot. No questions asked. No warning......JUST BAM!

originally posted by: Skywatcher2011
Woman killed after being bitten in throat by pet pit bulls
metro.co.uk...

Bethany Stephens22, died after the dogs, named Tonka and Pacman, savaged her while on a walk near her home in Goochland, Va.

A coroner’s report released Tuesday revealed she died of ‘combined multiple sharp and blunt force trauma due to mauling’ by the dogs’ teeth. The investigation said Bethany had ‘defensive wounds’ on her arms and hands from trying to stop the dogs injuring her.

She is believed to have been savaged first in the throat, before the animals pulled her to the ground, where she lost consciousness and was savaged to death.

The good news is these dogs were put down immediately following the incident. When I look at that picture, I don't see a beautiful dog, I see the eye of a killer.

These dogs can snap at any time and at any age. It is in their genes. I am not here to argue for you not to own a pet of this type...but if this dog mauls you...you won't get any sympathy from me. The warning signs are everywhere.

I've known lots of pitbulls. They are not bred to be violent. The only pitbulls I've ever seen snap have been ones that were mistreated in some way at some point. It just tends to be idiots that own pitbulls because they look tough, have that reputation and can really # someone up if they want to. I've personally seen more German Shepherds snap for no reason on their owners.and the only dogs I've ever been attacked by were German Shepherd's.....well that and terriers...I dunno why but those small curly haired terriers seem to always hate me.

I am sorry for the lady, who knows the whole story. But if you look at the picture to the left of this post — Willow — saved my life. Taught me how to love again and gave me motivation during a dark time in my life. Not all pit bulls are made the same.

originally posted by: Skywatcher2011
When I look at that picture, I don't see a beautiful dog, I see the eye of a killer.

Really? What about those eyes ecclesiastes911.net... ?

When I see people smother a dog the way that pic shows, that is always a bad sign. Same as when a parent thinks little timmy is so cute and adorable as he's pulling rovers ears.

Dogs are not toys. They are pack animals, and if you treat them less, they will eventually react. Be it with timidity and fear, or with savage brutality.

When I see bogans rough their dogs around, I hope it's with savage brutality and that no children even engage with that animal. I knew an asshole once who treated his animal in such a way, but the dog escaped. When the pound called for someone to collect it, he just said "Nah put it down."

People are the most savage of animals.

Pit bulls were bred for their aggressive traits. That is the entirety of their lineage, the traits that have been bred (and inbred) to the forefront of their behavioral repertoire are what makes a Pit bull a Pit bull.

That took time to whip them into that powerful bundle of muscles and cunning. For people to suddenly try to smooth-talk others into believing that Pollyanna Pit bull is a "gentle dog" is disingenuous and sickeningly arrogant. You CAN NOT simply breed out those dominant traits in a couple of batches of puppies. Ain't. Going. To. Happen. They're not going anywhere, for a VERY long time. Maybe in a couple hundred more years. But never within our lifetimes. Get your heads out of your asses, they're deadly animals by nature, more so than other breeds by a hell of a lot.

I recently put my pitbull to sleep., incredibly sad.
He was 15 years old and never showed a tooth at anyone , he was the most loyal dog , has been around kids and other dogs even cars ....never a problem
He was part of the family and was loved and will be missed ,
My other dog is a Bulladore, mother was English bull dog, father was black lab .
He looks like a lab but wider like a bill dog .
He is all black with one White front paw, and weighs about 95 pounds. His name is Vader.
Needed a cool name for a black dog. He is missing his buddy very much right now , just been a week now .
Can't lump all the pit bulls into one category.
Petey from the little rascials was a pitbull , they use to be America's dog til someone had to go and exploit them .
Yes, some are agressive but most are not, golden retrevers have a higher temperment than pit bulls .

originally posted by: Skywatcher2011
Woman killed after being bitten in throat by pet pit bulls
metro.co.uk...

Bethany Stephens22, died after the dogs, named Tonka and Pacman, savaged her while on a walk near her home in Goochland, Va.

A coroner’s report released Tuesday revealed she died of ‘combined multiple sharp and blunt force trauma due to mauling’ by the dogs’ teeth. The investigation said Bethany had ‘defensive wounds’ on her arms and hands from trying to stop the dogs injuring her.

She is believed to have been savaged first in the throat, before the animals pulled her to the ground, where she lost consciousness and was savaged to death.

The good news is these dogs were put down immediately following the incident. When I look at that picture, I don't see a beautiful dog, I see the eye of a killer.

These dogs can snap at any time and at any age. It is in their genes. I am not here to argue for you not to own a pet of this type...but if this dog mauls you...you won't get any sympathy from me. The warning signs are everywhere.

You see the eye of a killer? Do you own one ?
I see a dog that is content and calm .

Dbl post

a reply to: JHumm

Exactly. I have a non bully breed that will cuddle like that, I don't see it forced by the woman as claimed earlier nor the dog appearing to be a killer.

This thread illustrates a lot of BSL talking points, that's just what they are to aid to the witch hunt. I do wonder what breed, such as another of the working groups, who will be the target as it's not a first witch hunt of breeds-see GSD for example as a target.

At this point BSL will be the decline of the breed when people can no longer afford insurance to have the dog, be told to put the dog down or move out, etc.. It's not only that to thank but the bad owners, the dog fighters and the back yard breeders as well facilitating bad genetics and behavior.

a reply to: openyourmind1262

Why are you so afraid of small dogs?

Or are you one of those people who captured and tortured rats for fun, as a child?

I hope you will have the chance to meet one of these some day.

Dog whisperer Cesar Milan



I'm not the pit bull type like some guys, it's kinda true that most guys, mostly ones i've met in California use em to look big and important it's sad, knowing you could lose a leg just like that. Anyway there it is.

a reply to: Akragon

They were HUNGRY. They attacked her as food. Period the end. Once the blood started to flow, once the dogs got taste of it...she became a food source. To say anything else is just damn stupid.....they were eating on hers rib bones when she was found by the sheriff's deputies. The local sheriff said it was the worse scene he had ever seen in all his years as a sheriff. But they were her "Beloved Pitbulls'. In my opinion they are a worthless breed of dog. They serve zero practical purpose, except maybe for being a moving target.

A neighbor of mine in our old house had a German Shepard....that dog tore my garbage out on a regular basis. I tried speaking to said neighbor about the dog, it fell on deaf ears. I ended up calling animal control out, showed them the cell phone video of the dog tearing out my garbage, actually pulling entire garbage bag down into the woods after it got it out of the trash can. Animal control officer, then took my cell phone video and showed it to my neighbor, to no avail. Then animal control let me know MY RIGHTS. I have the right to protect my property and my person from the dog. That if I felt in fear of the dog I had the right to shoot the dog. End result......dead german shepard on my back deck. I caught the dog sniffing around my trash can, that I had moved to a less desirable location. When I rounded the corner, armed and wife with video camera, instead of running away, the dog decided to stand it's ground and bear it's teeth......that dog never got to do that again. I called animal control, they in turn told the neighbor and showed him the video of the dog bearing it's teeth and growling at my wife & I. I blame the death of that dog on it's damn owner. Do I feel bad that I shot the mans dog ? Nope, what if that would have been my granddaughter that rounded that corner? I hate to think of that.

a reply to: Subaeruginosa

First of all, "just snapping" is NOT the same as reacting to a stick in the eye.

I am a thinking human being, but anyone putting a stick in my eye, for any reason, is going to get their spine broken across my knee, before I even get a chance to think about it.

Just snapping, would be as follows.

Everything is chill. The dog is not neglected, the dog is not afraid. The owner and dog are walking along, with no negative history or recent happening, and then, without any initiating factor, the dog just goes for the throat.


That does not appear to be the situation here, since the animals appeared neglected, according to the report. Neglected PEOPLE lash out at those responsible, and they SHOULD. So should dogs. We should not be killing dogs for having reactions to devastating neglect, or to abuse. We should be empathetic with them, and accept that unless we have lost all respect for ourselves or our self preservation, we would and should do the exact same thing in their position.

a reply to: Skywatcher2011

When I look at that picture, I don't see a beautiful dog, I see the eye of a killer.

well that says more about you than anything else.

These dogs can snap at any time and at any age.

These dogs?

You do know that any dog can snap at any time and at any age?

It is in their genes.

Yes, dogs that are bred from fighting dogs will have aggression in their genes.

if its genetic line were bred for aggression it matter not what the bred is, it will take numerous generations to breed it out of the dog.

I am not here to argue for you not to own a pet of this type...but if this dog mauls you...you won't get any sympathy from me.

the same can be said if a person buys a powerful car and doesn't know how to drive with such a powerful engine.

Ignorance is what creates issues, if a person doesn't do some checks and doesn't have the knowledge how to raise a dog then its the same as a person not knowing how to drive a powerful car but still gets one.

a reply to: Mandroid7

Rotts are not dog aggressive.

Sorry but this is just ignorance.

Any dog can be dog aggressive/human aggressive.

Akitas are known to be though, they have major pack instincts and try to be the alpha.

Akitas and Rotties share a lot in terms of characteristics.

The only reason Akita's can be said to be more aggressive is due to popularity and more breeding to abolish aggression in Rotties world wide compared to Akita's.

a reply to: openyourmind1262

You are not a real man, a real man would not need a gun in that situation,

And your yard is probably full of (SNIP), that is why it attracts all sorts of animals, and do you know what a fence is? Like a proper fence..

a reply to: solve

Oh I can guarantee I'm a man. Man who owns the dog is the one who needed the fence. The man who owns the dog is responsible for said (dead ) dog. My trash was in the containers supplied by the carting company. So in your mind I am to let the dog rule MY ROOST. Not in my lifetime. I called animal control, as I'm supposed to do. I then defended myself, my wife and my property from a dog that growled and shown his teeth as he tore out my garbage. Nah. I shoot the SOB over and over in that scenario. A dog OWNER is responsible for their animal. Period the end. If the dog owner didn't want what happened to happen, then HE should have taken your advice and installed a fence.( a proper fence) as per YOU to protect his dog from the mean old man across the road. I'd shoot the SOB again tomorrow if the same scenario occurred. Bet your asrse I would. Ask that girls father if he wants to shoot the dogs that ate his daughter? I bet you don't get that warm & fuzzy answer you seek.