Location of atlantis

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by Gazrok
How do you explain the accounts of cocoa, tobacco, etc. in Egyptian mummies, or the pre-Columbian sculptures of caucasians, lions, and other African beasts in South America if they never had trade?

Links, m'friend? Links...?

Byrd, Here is a link on the coc aine connection The Mystery of the Cocaine Mummies
I remember a special on this subject on the Learning Channel last year. Unfortunately, I am having troubles locating a link to it.

Originally posted by Byrd
The "tale told by a traveler" is a popular literary device. We don't know one way or another whether Solon really existed -- but we do know that Atlantis doesn't show up in the writings of any other civilization.

A'slainte, Celts! Here's at least one 'other' civilization:

The fact that St. Brendan sailed in search of a country in the west cannot be doubted; and the legends which guided him were probably the traditions of Atlantis among a people whose ancestors had been derived directly or at second-hand from that country.

Now this is an admittedly qustionable source. But St. Brendan did exist:

Voyage of St. Brendan

Although his voyage cannot be 'proven'; the libraries of the Portuguese monarchs, of Spain, and of the Vatican are full of Atlantis tales; the source myth was probably burned at the Library of Alexandria. And many cultures preserve history in oral form, not in books.

I don't have time right now to research the other legends on both sides of the Atlantic. But if you look, you will find them.

i read somewhere that there where actually around 10 islands or "continents" like atlantis sunk under the sea. i will try too find the link.

Originally posted by MAVERlCK2
Blacksteel im not sure exactly what your question is...however, you need to realize that when atlantis was around the face of the earth was quite different, and in fact my have been HUGELY different, but again what is your question? I'm not exactly following.

My apologies,i wasnt clear enough.

Plato claimed that some greeks had gone there on an expidition.I believe this to be possible because howelse would they of known about it without going there?

According to many of the discriptions of Atlantas and the various cultures there.Atlantas was a very ``Euro``type empire.The Architecture much resembled that of Greek and Roman style.This ment it must of been close to Europe.

Many say Atlantas is in South America,but that cannot be true,for many of the mayans and other cultures who lived there do not have any type of architecture similar to European styled architectures.The Mayans were a very advanced culture,but none of there buildings,or artifects show any resemblence to what was discribed.Also the landscape is very different towards what was discribed.According to many of the discriptions of Atlantas,the land is green with plains and mountains/highlands in the backround.The area in South America claimed to be where Atlantas was is actually a small desert between mountains.

And how do you explain Platos theory of the greeks managing to go all the way on the otherside of South America when most of them did not go that far out to sea.The Greeks believed only three continents existed.Europe,Persia and beyond(Asia)and Africa.They did not go anywhere beyond their half of the Atlantic.Niether did they go south of the atlantic.They would of had to do this inorder to get to the area claimed to be where Atlantas was.Betterstill the Greeks were not equipted for these types of expiditions for they just were not upto that standard of sailing.It would of taken them months to get to the otherside of Atlantas.It just wasnt possible.They wouldnt of been prepared for that journey.Note that Plato did claim they landed on the coast of where Atlantas was.So this indicated they would had to go around South America instead of landing on whats now the Brazilian coast.

I believe that Atlantas exists.But according to the facts i just added.It cannot be in South America.I do not mean to be a skeptic,but i believe its closer to Europe than expected.Middle Alantic.There is enough space for a land of such magnitude.And i believe there is enough time for the sea levels to rise to that point for a land like that to dissappear into the depth of the Atlantic.

Note:None of the ancient South American civilisations resemble that of what plato claimed to be Atlantean civilization.

I believe Atlantis existed, I however do not claim to know where it was or is today, I believe it was/is either in the Atlantic and/or pacific oceans, in Antarctica, it was never Earthbound.

I dont believe it was in south america because 1 being they would of had t take months to get to South america with the technology that they had.

Actualy it would have taken many years, not months.

Sorry, but it would have bothered me if I had'nt pointed it out.

Links, m'friend? Links...?

Okay, leaving work now, but I'll revisit this over the weekend (U2U me in fury if I forget) and provide the links. I've done so (with these items) in the past on other Atlantis threads, so just didn't repost them, hehe...

Originally posted by iori_komei
I believe Atlantis existed, I however do not claim to know where it was or is today, I believe it was/is either in the Atlantic and/or pacific oceans, in Antarctica, it was never Earthbound.

I dont believe it was in south america because 1 being they would of had t take months to get to South america with the technology that they had.

Actualy it would have taken many years, not months.

Sorry, but it would have bothered me if I had'nt pointed it out.

Years!!!,thats great,it makes my reply more reasonable and right.

Originally posted by kenshiro2012

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by Gazrok
How do you explain the accounts of cocoa, tobacco, etc. in Egyptian mummies, or the pre-Columbian sculptures of caucasians, lions, and other African beasts in South America if they never had trade?

Links, m'friend? Links...?

Byrd, Here is a link on the coc aine connection The Mystery of the Cocaine Mummies
I remember a special on this subject on the Learning Channel last year. Unfortunately, I am having troubles locating a link to it.

(g) Thanks. You've saved poor Gaz a ton of work!

I checked (skeptic that I am!) the references and found them to be good and solid; that there is indeed a researcher that has found what are unquestionably traces of nicotine and coc aine in mummies that came from a museum in Germany.

But it's not found in all mummies.

Here's another investigation that tested mummies fresh from another area (and with good control over what happened. Remember that the ones that were positive for coc aine and nicotine came from an unknown grave and ended up in King Ludvig's hands and then went on to other museums) These mummies show dietary nicotine but no coc aine:
scholar.google.com...:ZPoDoQNnrvgJ:www.scielo.cl/scielo.php%3Fscript%3Dsci_arttext%26pid%3DS0717-73562001000200 015%26lng%3Des%26nrm%3Di%26tlng%3Den+coc aine+egyptian+mummy

As charming as the "mysteriously vanishing cocoa plant is," I'll have to kinda side with the tacky scholars who say "but there's no evidence of it." At this pont there's no good artifact evidence that there was trade between Egypt and the New World.

So I admit that there's coc aine in them there mummies, but I question WHICH ones and what their history is. Baumgarten (the discoverer) did a superb job of covering all the bases on this. I think I'd like to see newer finds tested, though, to make sure it wasn't something that happened as eager Europeans tried to take care of the mummijes.

hmmmm mummies nicotine and coc aine eh? see even they knew how to have a good time apparently I'll stick to my medical marijuana thank you though (points to his prescriction paper)

from Byrd
So I admit that there's coc aine in them there mummies, but I question WHICH ones and what their history is. Baumgarten (the discoverer) did a superb job of covering all the bases on this. I think I'd like to see newer finds tested, though, to make sure it wasn't something that happened as eager Europeans tried to take care of the mummies.

Agreed, as the possibility of external contamination couls have induced false positives for Baumgarten there needs to be further testing of "newer" mummies, or mummies who's pedigree after being excavated can positively remove that factor.

There are some questionable objects in both south america as well as in egypt which suggests that trade between the old and new worlds was possible, but as have said in other threads those objects are out of ordinary. dang it, what is that term you are fond of?
Anyway I am pretty sure that we are both on the same page in regards to this issue

Do you know how old atlantis would be? It would have fallen somewhere close to 14,000 years ago, and would be located on the sea floor probably with about 150 to 200 deep in the water. Additionally there may be as much at 25+ feet of sediment covering all of its remains on the sea floor.

People wonder why we haven't found anything of it yet? To be honest there may not be much of it left in the first place. But i guarentee that there will still be the foundation stones. It just gonna be a very difficult and expensive dig to find them.

And there is certainly plenty of evidence to say that the lost city of atlantis exists

" * Plato affirms, in his Critias, that the Atlantean kings inscribed in golden pillars their laws, edicts and judicial decisions, in a strange ritual involving the sacrifice of a bull dedicated to Poseidon. This type of ritual is characteristic of the Indies, where it is called Gomedha This sacrifice commemorates the death of Paradise (Gomeda-dvipa), which seems to be no other than Atlantis itself. A well-known instance of such inscribed pillars in India is the Pillar of Delhi, erected by King Ashoka, to commemorate his victory over his enemies. Though made of steel, the Pillar of Delhi is a peerless technological feat of antiquity, one that many experts associate with Atlantis. The pillar is forged from a single piece of steel, and is stainless, having defied the centuries without any oxidation at all. No one in antiquity could have matched this feat of the Hindus, which certainly obtained this sophisticated technology in Atlantis."

Taken from www.atlan.org...

you hear alot about Atlantis here but nothing about Mu and Lemuria, i have been reading this book called Lost Continents for the millions by Marilyn Seal Pierce if you are really are into lost civilizations the you should try to get the book

Antarctica, Australia and America where the only continents that 'civilization' seemed to have lost contact with and had to be discovered or re-discovered later. Could be any one of these or maybe a continent that did disapear under the sea like in the old tales.

I was reading this interesting thread and thought of adding something to it. Hope nobopdy will mind.

MAVERICK said : In acient greek times there was only one ocean, guess what it was called, the Atlantic Ocean.

probably you meant there was only one “known” Ocean as oceans were all there already.

This is an interesting point however. Based on traditional archaeology the Greeks should not have known the Atlantic Ocean but should have known only the Mar Mediterranuem (Mediterranean Sea).
It’s not clear from Plato’s tale if the Greeks actually knew of the Atlantic Ocean existence or if they learnt of it through the story that Solon allegedly heard from an Egyptian priest.

This could signify that the Egyptians were already aware of the existence of the Atlantic Ocean in times where the traditional and official archeology does not even contemplate the possibilities of such long trips. Curiously, pyramids similar in construction techniques to the famous ones in Egypt have been found in some parts of South-America (i.e: Peru). But that’s another story.

Also, Maverick suggests the Indies as a place for Atlantis. Obviously nobody can prove anything here, so we are stuck to personal point of views. Mine is that Atlantis should not be put in the Indies, for many reasons (mainly based on texts I read about Atlantis).
However, I do believe that there could have been another continent that ended beneath the sea, in the Indies, but that continent would have been Mu, not Atlantis.

I saw Lemuria being mentioned together with Mu and it was also in a post of someone else. Lemuria actually is not a “mythological land”. Atlantis and Mu are myth, whose existence still needs to be proved. Lemuria instead is a geological reference more than a myth.

Way back in the past, the world in fact was not divided in all the continental masses we know today, but it was – at a time – formed by two initials big masses of land :Lemuria and Gondwana as they were called. But Lemuria and’or Gondwana do not refer to any civilization or lost continent.

BYRD said: There's no tales of its destruction in other civilizations.

Well, in reality there are many tales of ancient civilizations and huge cataclysms in the past. Could one of them referred to Atlantis’ disappearance? Yes, it could. But obviously, at this time, we don’t know about it.

Also, from BYRD: Solon. The "tale told by a traveler" is a popular literary device. We don't know one way or another whether Solon really existed….

Well, we actually know that Solon existed. Solon is no legendary figure. Solon (638-558or 559 BC) was a Greek politician. It was made Chief Magistrate in 594 BC when he tried to reform the oppressions inside the country (many Athenians were reduced in slavery).

Very interesting is Gazrok mentioning : How do you explain the accounts of cocoa, tobacco, etc. in Egyptian mummies, or the pre-Columbian sculptures of caucasians, lions, and other African beasts in South America if they never had trade…

Although not a direct proof for Atlantis, the above findings could substain the theory mentioned at the beginning of this post that the Egyptian were indeed able to travel to South America in remote times (this will explain also how they knew about the Hercules Pillars (the Strait of Gibraltar) and the Atlantic Ocean.

All this said, obviously it’s a guess. We all can put Atlantis where we feel it could have been. I would personally favor the Atlantic Ocean down to the Caribbean Sea. But it’s not important what one favors as much as the fact that there are still people who would like to know more about our past and who get fascinated by it.

Originally posted by Lamagraa
hmmmm mummies nicotine and coc aine eh? see even they knew how to have a good time apparently I'll stick to my medical marijuana thank you though (points to his prescriction paper)

They had Marijuana as well Im pretty sure I have seen temples with Marijuana leaves painted on the walls. As well as a Flower Lotus which was a powerful narcotic and hallucinogen. Anyone familiar with Egyptian art will be aware of just how important the lotus was as an image.

So those Pharohs knew how to party

BTW I think traces of Tobaco were found in a very famous mummy that of Ramesses II. Not found in his body but in the wrappings he was in they contained considerable quantities of fibre from the tobacco plant - results which were promptly "lost" and disregarded for almost 20 years because they were regarded at the time as "impossible".

And you didn't trust me?

Thanks for that...providing some links...

Here's another....

Cocaine and Tobacco found in Mummies
In Munich, in 1992, researchers began a project to investigate Egyptian mummies. Toxicologist, Dr Svelta Balabanova, joined the team to test for drugs, having gained a respect in her field for pioneering new methods for detecting drugs in hair and sweat.

Dr Balabanova ran samples from the mummies through a system which uses antibodies to detect the presence of drugs. The samples were also put through mass spectroscopy which can accurately identify substances by determining their molecular weight. The results seemed to be wrong! Nicotine and coc aine were present and Balabanova was sure it was a mistake.

She ran the tests again and sent fresh samples to three other labs. The results were confirmed—he drugs were there. So she went ahead and published a paper. No one believed her. Before Columbus these plants had not been found anywhere in the world outside of the Americas. Now they had been found in the 3000 year old 21st dynasty mummy of Henut Taui—the Lady of the Two lands.

The experts said:

This is just mad. It is wrong. There is contamination present. Maybe there is a fraud present of some kind. Cocaine cannot be present in an Egyptian mummy.
Balabanova was a forensic toxicologist who had worked for the police and had fully considered the possibility of contamination. She had checked all the equipment. She had been taught how vital it is when an autopsy is carried out to know whether the victim has consumed or been given any drugs or poisons. And she had also been taught that a special forensic technique exists which can show that the deceased has consumed a drug and rule out external contamination at the same time.

Anxious to ensure that her tests on the mummies were beyond reproach, she had used this very technique—the hair shaft test. Drugs and other substances consumed by humans get into the hair protein, where they stay for months, or after death—forever. Hair samples can be washed in alcohol and the washing solution itself then tested. If the testing solution is clear, but the hair tests positive, then the drug must be inside the hair shaft. If the hair shaft is found to contain a drug, then it is proof positive that the person has taken that drug—during their lifetime if they are now dead. It is accepted in law. It is considered proof against contamination before or after death.

The hair shaft test on a couple in Jersey, showed their two sons had drugged them before killing them. The technique has been used in countless others over the last 25 years. Since it is also used for drugs tests on addicts, company employees and in sport, to suggest it could produce false results was for Balabanova unthinkable. She was 100 percent certain about the results.

If the fault was not in the tests, what else could lie behind the impossibility of mummies containing drugs from coca and tobacco, from a continent not discovered until over 1000 years after the end of the Egyptian civilisation? One of the UK’s foremost authorities on mummies, a person who had spent years examining the bodies of ancient Egyptians, is Rosalie David, Keeper of Egyptology, Manchester Museum.

Like others, when she was informed that coc aine had been found in Egyptian mummies, she was astounded. It seemed quite impossible. Sceptical of Balabanova’s results, Rosalie David decided to get some sampless from her own mummies and have them tested.

www.askwhy.co.uk...

Here's a link to just a sample of the Pre-Columbian art I mentioned, that though before Columbus, depicts African people, even animals....

www.20kweb.com...

It was not until 1925 that the existence of the Olmecs was reaffirmed when an archaeological team from Tulane University found another such gigantic stone head in the adjoining Mexican state of Tabasco; it measured about eight feet in height and weighed some twenty four tons.

In time, many more such colossal sculptures have been found; they depict distinctly different individuals wearing helmets; they also clearly depict, in each case, a person with African features -- black Africans.

Dramatically and effectively displayed in an innovative setting, the Museum boasts several colossal stone heads as well as other stone sculptures. It also displays smaller objects found at Olmec sites; among them, in special display showcases, are what are considered to be Olmec "toys." They include animals mounted on wheels -- a visual and evidentiary negation of the common claim that the people of Mesoamerica (and America in general) were unfamiliar with the wheel.

And included in the same display case were elephants -- "toys" made of clay.

Still think I'm loony in suggesting an ancient South American - African route???

[edit on 24-2-2005 by Gazrok]

[edit on 24-2-2005 by Gazrok]

Byrd, no rebuttal???

Thru my research i believe it is in anartica,still intact covered with ice so deep man will never see it.

this is my first and last post because i do not want to get addicted to another board, and please only reply to me through email so i don't have to check here every 5 minutes to see if someone replied.
[email protected]

ok, with that being said, it would be impossible for atlantis to be in antarctica, because antartica was frozen about a million years before humans even emerged, much less advanced humans with the tools capable of such a build

Originally posted by MAVERlCK2
In addition, Mount Krakatowa is the mountain described in the Greek texts.

How do you come to this conclusion ?

In addition, Plato clearly states that Atlantis was FULL of elephants, and elephants are not native nor were they ever native to the north atlantic.
They are, however, native to the Indies. In addition, the elephant was worshipped as a powerful animal. Most closely related to Ganish of the Hindu religion.

Yes but there existed an elephant like animal in South America around 10,500BC called a Cuvieronius, which had tusks and a trunk and was around the size of a elephant. There are carvings of these and other hippo-like animals in Tiahuanaco in South America. So how did they get there??....from India ???? I think NOT!

Moreover, the Hindu religion makes COUNTLESS references to atlantis/eden/lemuria...and the indies are very close to india, which also makes sense as to why it would be in the indies.

So do many ancient myths and religions, including the civilisations of South America, Egypt and the Middle East, so that is not proof. Many religions and myths speak of a strange land, of strange travellers after a great deluge, and of wise men arriving in their community. This means that there is one common element in most ancient civilisations, people coming from a strange land who are very advanced....ATLANTIS

Where Atlantis once was is anyones GUESS, there is no proof, only conjecture.