Mass Shootings and Suicides In Amerca - Both Have MENTAL ILLNESS in Common.

a reply to: JinMI
Mass killings occur with trucks running through crowds, or exploding outside of buildings. Backpacks filled with shrapnel...there are many ways, besides Auto/Semi-Auto rifles.

In America, guns are probably easier to obtain, and more fun to use than a Hertz rental truck.

a reply to: carewemust

Raising the legal age to 25 probably wouldn't work either, if the 19 year-old is determined to get ahold of a AR-15.

That depends.

I'm not going to claim there won't ever be another 19 year old with an AR-15, but it wouldn't be legally bought. A kid could buy a lever-action or single-shot rifle or a single action pistol, though, and that would slow down any assault they might commit. In the meantime, it takes away the mystique of owning that first firearm, and gives them a chance to get used to handling a gun safely.

You know, there was a vote here many years back on whether or not the city was going to go wet (allow alcohol sales). One of the arguments was that the kids could get alcohol easier if it was legal. That turned out to be the exact opposite of the truth. The bootleggers were already supplying the city with booze long before that vote, and they really didn't care how old their customers were. When the vote passed, the bootleggers mostly shut down because there wasn't any money in it anymore, and the kids had a much harder time getting alcohol.

Kids are impulsive. The brain continues to develop until age 25, and the last areas that develop involve foresight. A kid can easily become overwhelmed with all the changes going on in his life (as I believe happened to Cruz) and go off on a tear. He'll go for the biggest, baddest gun out there (the AR-15 in modern mythology), but if all he can get is a hunting rifle, he'll use that. That's a lot slower than a semi-automatic, because it takes longer to cock a gun than it does to pull a trigger.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: DBCowboy
If someone wants to kill, you won't change that attitude by taking away firearms.

You have to change the PERSON, not his tool.

Might as well say that if you're hungry, taking away your fork will stop the hunger.

That's why I started this thread. What are the odds that the world will come together and find out why people commit suicide and mass-murders? Everyone unites and holds candles...which accomplishes nothing long-term. But finding the trait or gene that can be "manipulated" to reduce the odds of a person doing either one, would be a HUGE breakthrough.

a reply to: carewemust

What are the odds that the world will come together and find out why people commit suicide and mass-murders?

I can answer that already: hopelessness.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: DBCowboy
If someone wants to kill, you won't change that attitude by taking away firearms.

You have to change the PERSON, not his tool.

Might as well say that if you're hungry, taking away your fork will stop the hunger.

That's why I started this thread. What are the odds that the world will come together and find out why people commit suicide and mass-murders? Everyone unites and holds candles...which accomplishes nothing long-term. But finding the trait or gene that can be "manipulated" to reduce the odds of a person doing either one, would be a HUGE breakthrough.

It's a behavior. A behavior as a result of social influences.

This surpasses economic boundaries.

It has nothing to do with guns.

We had easier access to guns when we were kids without this crap.

So what has changed?

The teaching process has changed.
Disciplining has changed.
Respect for your elders, respect for your community has changed.


Behaviors can change.

All we have to do is identify the causative agents that elicit these types of behaviors.

a reply to: TheRedneck

That's true. Anything that makes it harder for anyone under age 25 to obtain a fast-shooting firearm, is a step in the right direction.

I don't know why Florida has age 18 as the legal age for firearms, but 21 as the legal age for liquor. Florida governor Rick Scott was asked this over and over today, but he was pretty defiant and evasive. (It was Woof Blister, so I kind of understand Scott getting annoyed.)

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: DBCowboy
If someone wants to kill, you won't change that attitude by taking away firearms.

You have to change the PERSON, not his tool.

Might as well say that if you're hungry, taking away your fork will stop the hunger.

That's why I started this thread. What are the odds that the world will come together and find out why people commit suicide and mass-murders? Everyone unites and holds candles...which accomplishes nothing long-term. But finding the trait or gene that can be "manipulated" to reduce the odds of a person doing either one, would be a HUGE breakthrough.

It's a behavior. A behavior as a result of social influences.

This surpasses economic boundaries.

It has nothing to do with guns.

We had easier access to guns when we were kids without this crap.

So what has changed?

The teaching process has changed.
Disciplining has changed.
Respect for your elders, respect for your community has changed.


Behaviors can change.

All we have to do is identify the causative agents that elicit these types of behaviors.

I think those 3 items you listed are big reasons why Suicides and Murders committed by people under age 21 has skyrocketed over the past 50 years.

I can still remember getting paddled by Ms. Haas in the 3rd grade. I don't think teachers can even squeeze a child's arm today, in America.

In a way, Americans are reaping what we've been sewing over recent decades.

a reply to: carewemust

This is gonna sound #ed up, buuuut.....

In America, you're not going to get rid of guns. Period. Not going to happen. Sorry. Im neither for nor against, but thats what it is. No matter what legislation or measures are passed, guns and ammo will find their way to psychopathic dickheads who yearn to cause mayhem. I hate this fact...but that is just it. Fact.

Perhaps if we had foreseen these issues before mass producing # tons of guns and ammo over several centuries and arming everyone to the teeth...you get the idea.

So. What are the realistic solutions to this obvious problem?



Solution 1: Torture, humiliate, and publically bastardize the proven offender(s)

By causing slow, horrific, public pain to the perpetrators, destroying their mind, body, and soul in front of millions, as barbaric and ghastly as it sounds, this psychology would almost certainly offput future dickheads who even think about doing something of the sort "oh i want to kill all of these people, but wait, if i do im going to be strung up by my ballsack and torched with acetylene for 10 hours on facebook live" aka not effin worth it.

Before #2 ...dont judge me, i just really hate dickheads...real dickheads. Not dickheads that arent really dickheads because im being the dickhead. Im talking about the actual effin dickheads.


Solution #2: If you're not keen on my first, hunger games-esque solution, see below.

Create jobs and protect our schools by employing permanent, expertly trained campus marshalls. Arm them with an AR-15, 4 fully loaded 5.56 mags (or go 7.62 if yourw worried about armor wearing dickheads) and body armor for the marshalls.

Depending on campus size, anywhere from 3 to 20 marshalls.



You want your kids safe right? Then make them bloody safe in this society.

The unfortunate thing is that many people who start off complaining about a mild case of depression are put on psychotropic drugs.

I don’t have the stats on hand but they’re there if you search for it. Look up the truth about psychotropic drugs on YouTube.
Many people end up committing suicide from those drugs, not all, but the stats are high enough to warrant blaming them.

Those people didn’t start off with any mental illness. There’s people who killed their entire families.

Many of these mass murderers are found to have been on those drugs.

The issue with the drugs is they are addicting. Not addicting in the sense the person wants one, but their body is so accustomed to them that merely missing a dose, taking the dose an hour late ( easy to do) can mess them up enough from withdrawals that they just aren’t thinking right.

They might quit them because they feel better so they think they don’t need them and go into dangerous withdrawals

Pump something into a person long enough, then take it away and that is enough to trigger going nuts,

Having lots of money is no different, take thst away and a person might commit suicide.

1 in 4 people in the UK will experience some kind of mental illness at some point in their life and despite a relatively small population we are seventh in the world for prescribing medications for mental health. Not only that our mental heath facilities are facing funding cuts and provision in the community is shocking.

Guess what.....

Despite this

No mass shootings....

I am certain that mental illness is a factor, it takes a disturbed mind to kill a classroom full of kids but please stop pretending that this is a mental health issue just to push a pro-gun agenda because the truth is that the issue is the plethora of guns. Trying to turn this into a mental health issue only adds to the stigma around mental health.

The entire argument is a fallacy, if this was just about mental illness then we would see similar crimes at the same rate and magnitude the world over and the truth is we don’t.

Blame anything but the steel I guess......

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Great points.
And let's dispell this BS of kids being sheltered so now, today they are able to cope...

Here is a wiki of mass shootings in the us by year dating back to 1929, the year 1929....
And these are mass shootings, look at the fatality curve how it rises steadily over the years as the country's weapon and war industrial complex begins to take shape...

wiki mass shootings time table

Keep in mind these are just the major ones, the news 'world news' worthy shootings.
Let's take mental illness and poverty into account, show me any 1st world country which comes even marginally close

If you're keen blaming mental illness after even clicking on 5 of those 'sub categories' (the shootings per year are alphabetized) , I think that can be categorized as a mental illness -acute behavioral denial syndrome....

a reply to: DBCowboy

See the link above and stop pretending this now started to be a problem, it was like this back in the day, it's just now with modern day technology, we can better expose these incidents to places which otherwise wouldn't know about them say 20 - 30 years ago.

a reply to: odzeandennz


No.

A few wiki pages aren't going to dissuade me from the premise that we have kids/young adults that just can't "adult".

And as a result, react in juvenile ways to adult issues with adult tools.

a reply to: carewemust

We are raising our kids telling them that they cannot lose everyone gets a trophy. Everyone has a feeling that gets hurt over something it's out of control.
Many of us were bullied in school that doesn't make us Mass murderers. I think we are creating the disconnect with reality and then when they grow up and have to face reality we don't understand why they can't handle it.

a reply to: carewemust

It is human nature to push back against perceived threats. Every time someone goes into "GUNS BAD! NO GUNS!" mode, it accomplishes the opposite of what they are supposedly trying to accomplish: it makes the gun owners dig in their heels. Add in that typically no hand in the government knows what the other hand is doing, and you get mixed up signals like this.

I've seen it twice on Fox. The first time was with Geraldo Rivera. He literally went next to tears, screaming into the mic about the hurt these kids feel and why do we allow guns... but he never could tie those two emotional pleas together logically. The second was a teacher who lost a student. Poor thing... my heart went out to her, but her ravings about how this could all have been prevented by getting rid of guns didn't convince me as much as it made me feel sorrier for her.

The suggestion I laid out is not against the spirit of the Constitution, does not place an undue hardship on gun owners, would cost hardly nothing to implement, and is reasonable. Not to mention, it certainly would have reduced casualties in this situation. A few more changes:

Re-empower the principles and teachers to discipline children, up to and including corporal punishment. I know there are a lot of parents who will balk at this, but I got kids in that school too (well, used to, hopefully grandkids one day), and I have a right to ensure they are safe and secure. I'm sorry if that right infringes on your precious little hellion's hindside.

Allow principles and teachers to identify "threatening" youths. Turn their records over to the state police for investigation into potential threats, and if such threats are found to be realistic, more action can be undertaken by the courts. Punishment could go so far as removal from the household temporarily while they attend a "boot-camp" style school facility. We have a few of those around here; they work. Or it could be as simple as informing parents and allowing them to take care of the problem while the police keep an eye on things. These are all unique situations and should be handled on a case-by-case basis.

Require social media platforms to report potentially dangerous persons, based on their posts, to the state police (or a national clearinghouse for passing information), to be used the same way a teacher's report is used above.

Whatever happened to the "Big Brothers/Big Sisters" programs? I thought it was a great idea... but I haven't heard anything about them recently.

Empower any school faculty member who is duly authorized to carry a concealed weapon to do so at school. Require special training if wanted... I consider that a great idea. But forget the "gun-free zone" mess; it just don't work.

There's some ideas... feel free to add some in, not just you, but everyone. We need to stop this senseless cycle.

Bigly.

TheRedneck

1 in 5 Adults have a mental health condition. That's over 40 million Americans; more than the populations of New York and Florida combined. Youth mental health is worsening. Rates of youth with severe depression increased from 5.9% in 2012 to 8.2% in 2015. Even with severe depression, 76% of youth are left with no or insufficient treatment More Americans have access to services... Access to insurance and treatment increased, as healthcare reform has reduced the rates of uninsured adults. The greatest decrease in uninsured Adults with mental illnesses was seen in states that expanded Medicaid. ...But most Americans still lack access to care. 56% of American adults with a mental illness do not receive treatment. Even in Maine, the state with the best access, 41.4% of adults with a mental illness do not receive treatment. There is a serious mental health workforce shortage. In states with the lowest workforce, there is up 6 times the individuals to only 1 mental health professional. This includes psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, counselors, and psychiatric nurses combined.

a reply to: carewemust

Over 40 Million Americans have MH issues and yet you say in your op that people with mh issues are the ones doing the shootings. If this is the case, there'd be a lot more of these events. It seems like you're saying ALL MH sufferers should be blamed when only a couple handfuls are the ones committing these acts out of 40 million??

You want all 40 million to be monitored just because of a couple of handful??

This is always the case with these types of things... the minority cause the problems but it's the majority who get blamed. Same for bein watched out in the streets and in shops by those cameras, because of a few people stealing, the billions of people get watched.

a reply to: odzeandennz

Correlate those lists with overall deaths in that time period and consider the frequency with which they happened. Your conclusions are wrong.

There will always be those who are simply not able to exist in a society. I've told this story a few times before, but it bears repeating here:

In the late 70s, I attended high school with a kid we'll call "B." "B" was a pain in the butt. He was a little guy who wanted to be a bully but always wound up being the bullied. He had this fascination with drugs... I always said he would have snorted rat poison if someone had told him it would get him high. I knew him pretty well; I used to put cigar loads in cigarettes to keep him from bumming them off me.

The school was a long, spread-out design, with the front area separated from the back by only a hallway with classrooms on each side. The back area was the smoking area (yes, we had those back then). One afternoon after school had dismissed, one of the teachers, a gruff old man who no one liked and who apparently liked no one (especially me), caught "B" in front of the school smoking. In his usual abrasive manner, he made "B" go back to the smoking area, but instead of stopping in it, "B" just kept walking through it and across the parking lot. Later, the teacher would state that "B" looked like he was "on drugs." He probably was, if you ask me.

One of the town fathers had a grandson, a very young child, who was playing in the woods behind their house that evening. At some point in time, "B" found him. When "B" returned home that night, covered with blood, his father asked what had happened. "B" replied he had killed a rabbit. His father wanted to see it, so "B" took him to the "rabbit." It was the young kid.

The child had been shot, mutilated with a knife (including his genitals removed), and had been sexually assaulted.

"B" was sent away; his family was literally run out of town; the whole county was in mourning. The old man never really recovered from the loss of his grandson... he was never the same. I heard "B"s name on the news some years later. He was on death row in Birmingham for serial murders. He was executed soon after.

"B" actually came from a decent family. He never showed any sign I saw that he was any different form the average aggravating kid... and quite a few would have placed me in that same category. We were kids. It was our job to be aggravating. Perhaps the teacher could have stopped it, but really, do we want one strange action to be the basis of incarceration? We'd all be locked up.

It just happened. No one could see it coming. No one had any idea such a horrific act would happen. I guess, thinking back, we all figured "B" would grow up some day, get tired of being a punk kid, and make a real life for himself. He certainly wasn't alone in his behavior; a lot of kids were small, irritating, and liked to get high. It was the 70s.

Show me a way to ensure that this never happens again, and I'm all ears. I don't think you, or anyone else, can.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: DBCowboy


It's a behavior. A behavior as a result of social influences.

This surpasses economic boundaries.

It has nothing to do with guns.

We had easier access to guns when we were kids without this crap.

So what has changed?

The teaching process has changed.
Disciplining has changed.
Respect for your elders, respect for your community has changed.

We also have those issues in Canada yet we do not have mass shootings on a regular basis. There is something we do have that is different than America but is ignored by Americans and those are common sense guns laws and strict ones too. We also have better access to mental health services in Canada.

The biggest hypocrites are conservative yanks who oppose universal healthcare and then blame people with mental health issues for mass shootings.
People in Europe and Australia too suffer from depression and anxiety and they take the same anti depressives. However they don't go out and kill people in malls and schools.
In my country, Northern Europe, all relatives who wish to get involved get involved by the doctor to help the individual diagnosed with depression/anxiety. And guess what?! It's all free!!

Another thing. You Americans are slaves. You work your ass of all year long. Your unions are viewed as communist traitors while you work for your overlords at Mac Donald's for 5 bucks an hour while your kids kill frogs and pose with assault rifles on Instagram. You don't have any rights as workers at all. You don't have time to raise your kids because you live in a heartless, ruthless capitalist society. Combine that with your savage gun culture and you get this. Most of you conservatives on ATS lived in a different time when your kids were teenagers. Your wife was probably a stay at home. The kids had at least one parent they could spend time with, a parent who could pick up these disorders at early stages. But there isn't timw for that anymore. No stay at home moms in capitalism, you can't afford it.

Your society will crumble under predatory capitalism sooner or later. Now go out and bitch about gun control, millennials, immigrants..MAGA or whatever

Mass Shootings and Suicides In Amerca - Both Have MENTAL ILLNESS in Common

People are playing a dangerous game here.

Trying to make a RIGHT a mental health issue, and leaving other rights alone.

If people are so nuts they've no right to speech or voting, but we hear NOTHING of the sort.

Selective disassociation is my diagnosis.

The problem is our society in general.

The family breakdown, education being the primary causation, but it seems everyone is focused on objects and running around trying to be the thought police.

As of yet there's no solution that's been presented, and the status quo continues it never will be, until that glorious day we all wake up and we've made 1984 look like amateur hour.

One problem commonly regarding mental problems is that human being is not only physical, psychic and economic being, but also spiritual. If spirituality is neglected at home, school and everywhere in the society, human beings can't feel well. If spiritual side is taken care then other sides are more easy to take care.

One of the best medicines is also to encourage depressed and suicidal people to help others, because when they are helping others, they will automatically get caring and gratitude from others, besides depressed will reduce own negative karma and gain positive karma. So even if one helps someone without person's knowledge - which is wise sometimes if the other might start to hang on the helper - still karma will make one benefit from it. And still if one helps and don't expect anything return, one will get maximum rewards because of total selflessness.

What come to shootings, if people would care enough about each other there would be less need to become violent. Western people are critical somewhat, so many expectations. Asian people accept more easily anyone, although then there are other kind of problems such as neglecting others.