Pro_Life Violence

by: Voxel
as I teach you about basic human biology.

REPLY: You're the one who mentioned about fetuses not breathing in the first place.

Jersey..... so sad.

This thread is continuing to move off topic and devolve into bickering. I would suggest that those who wish to continue to discuss the biological dynamics of pregnancy relative to the issue of abortion to start a new thread. This thread was started to discuss pro-life violence. Some tangents are necessary to a round out a discussion, but not to the extent that it has gone here.



[edit on 2006/7/20 by GradyPhilpott]

pro-life-violence

what an oxymoron.

People who blow up abortion clinics, or anything else, for that matter, are terrorists. Plain and simple.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
pro-life-violence

what an oxymoron.

People who blow up abortion clinics, or anything else, for that matter, are terrorists. Plain and simple.

Simply and well said. If you are "for life" you wouldn't be seeking to remove it. There may be people who are pro-baby and anti-adult...that looks like the case for these clinic-bombers. Doesn't make any sense otherwise. Though, I do know a few folks who are pro-animal and anti-human. Another puzzler for me.

Although this thread references "violence", I include here those cases where "attack" includes introducing foul-smelling liquids (Acids) into clinics to disrupt services.

Note that all incidents referenced include "attempted but failed" actions, such as flammable liquids on the premises, but did not result in an actual fire, or in which "explosives" did not detonate. "Shootings" references include those commited off of the clinic premises.

It's interesting to note that the National Abortion Federation considers the Acids (merely foul-smelling liquids) as "violent attacks". I also have issue with abortions being considered as "health care", as if being pregnant is akin to having the flu, or being sick, or like a broken arm/ankle, etc.

Number of attacks in North America (includes Canada):

1997:
5 Bombings
9 Arson
2 Shootings (Both off-premises; one in Canada)
0 Acid
Reported deaths from all of the above: 0
reported injuries from all of the above: 2

1998:
1 Bombing
3 Arson
1 Shootings (Off premises)
19 Acid
Reported deaths from all of the above: 1
reported injuries from all of the above: 0

1999:
1 Bombing
7 Arson
0 Shootings
0 Acid
Reported deaths from all of the above: 0
reported injuries from all of the above: 0

2000:
0 Bombing
3 Arson
0 Shootings
0 Acid
1 Stabbing (Canada)
Reported deaths from all of the above: 0
reported injuries from all of the above: 0

2001:
1 Bombing
2 Arson
0 Shootings
0 Acid
0 Stabbing
Reported deaths from all of the above: 0
reported injuries from all of the above: 0

2002:
0 Bombing
1 Arson
0 Shootings
0 Acid
0 Stabbing
Reported deaths from all of the above: 0
reported injuries from all of the above: 0

2003:
0 Bombing
3 Arson
0 Shootings
0 Acid
0 Stabbing
Reported deaths from all of the above: 0
reported injuries from all of the above: 0

2004:
0 Bombing
2 Arson
0 Shootings
0 Acid
0 Stabbing
Reported deaths from all of the above: 0
reported injuries from all of the above: 0

2005:
0 Bombing
2 Arson
0 Shootings
0 Acid
0 Stabbing
Reported deaths from all of the above: 0
reported injuries from all of the above: 0
--------------------------------------------------
What goes unreported is the number of deaths RESULTING from abortions, not including the undorn, because the abortion industry IS THE LEAST REGULATED MEDICAL INDUSTRY IN AMERICA. The 'right to privacy" seems to extend to the clinics as well. The figures above (provided by the NAF) appear to show that "Pro-Life Violence" is pretty much a non-issue.

So, what we see in the figures above is 2 injuries and 1 death. Why, that's just horrific, isn't it? No ....... not when you consider the number of deaths as seen below (statistics provided by the Alan Guttmacher Institute):

Number of abortion per year:
1973 744,600
1974 898,600
1975 1,034,200
1976 1,179,300
1977 1,316,700
1978 1,409,600
1979 1,497,700
1980 1,553,900
1981 1,577,300
1982 1,573,900
1983 1,575,000
1984 1,577,200
1985 1,588,600
1986 1,574,000
1987 1,559,100
1988 1,590,800
1989 1,566,900
1990 1,608,600
1991 1,556,500
1992 1,528,900
1993 1,500,000
1994 1,431,000
1995 1,363,690
1996 1,365,730
1997 1,335,039
1998 884,273 (excludes NH, CA, AK, OK)
1999 861,789 (excludes NH, CA, AK, OK)
2000 853,485 (excludes NH, CA, AK)
2001 853,485 (excludes NH, CA, AK)
2002 854,122 (excludes NH, CA, AK)
2003 1,293,000 (Base figure)
2004 1,293,000 (Base figure)

So.... let's talk about where the true violence and death occurs.......

[edit on 21-7-2006 by zappafan1] for syntax errors on my part.


[edit on 21-7-2006 by zappafan1]

Pro-Lifers believe that it is murder to have an abortion yet they are willing to murder the people that perform the abortions and think that they are not wrong in doing this.

I knew of a family that had a 24 yr old daughter that died from Aids. The daughter was pregnant and the drs told her it would shorten her life to carry this baby full term. The daughter decided that it would be best to have an abortion.

She goes to the hospital to check in for the abortion.
Somehow the pro- lifers found out she was there and what she was about to do. They went to the hospital and kidnapped her and placed her in hiding, not even her parents knew where she was.
To make this even worse, one of the people that kidnapped her was a doctor at a well known hospital.

Needless to say , they talked her out of having the abortion .
She had the baby and died 12 days later.

It is unbelievable what these lunatics will resort to.

Her parents should have had them arrested for what they did but they didn't.

Originally posted by MagicaRose
Pro-Lifers believe that it is murder to have an abortion yet they are willing to murder the people that perform the abortions and think that they are not wrong in doing this.

This is an irresponsibly broad generalization. If this were true there would be no abortionists left, as the ratio of abortionists to those who oppose abortion is several million to one.

I don't think it is irresponsible at all.

You don't know the heartache that these people contributed to the already existing problems that the parents and family had BEFORE the pro-lifers stepped in.

This baby has no parents now and is very sick...............did the pro-lifers help after this child was born?

NO!

Originally posted by MagicaRose
Pro-Lifers believe that it is murder to have an abortion yet they are willing to murder the people that perform the abortions and think that they are not wrong in doing this.

This is the statement to which I refered, but since you brought it up, the example you cite is not a common occurance.

Again, great statistics to put things into perspective zappafan. Although according to the facts, the ratio is millions upon millions to one...if people want to use this thread to talk about that one, then I'm up for it. I'll say that the one death is wrong. I'll also say that the millions upon millions of deaths due to abortion is also wrong. I wish I could make millions upon millions of threads to talk about each one...but no doubt this would make the moderators quite unhappy.

[edit on 21-7-2006 by saint4God]

by saint4God

by saint4God: Again, great statistics to put things into perspective zappafan. Although according to the facts, the ratio is millions upon millions to one..... I'll say that the one death is wrong. I'll also say that the millions upon millions of deaths due to abortion is also wrong......

REPLY: As you said, and I provided, they are facts... figures provided by A: (violent incidents at abortion mills/clinics): the National Abortion Federation and B: (abortions performed by year) by.... I can't quote them, as I have this window open. In any case the abortion figures are similar to those provided by the CDC.

I provided statistics as they directly pertain to the thread, and the correlation of deaths due to "violence" AT clinics (and off premises incidents) to deaths INSIDE the clinics.

As the figures show, the "millions upon millions to one" ratio is indeed correct.

As to the other poster mentioning his/her personal experience, and though it was indeed unfortunate to all involved, it pales in comparison to the numbers of deaths.

by MagicaRose
Pro-Lifers believe that it is murder to have an abortion yet they are willing to murder the people that perform the abortions and think that they are not wrong in doing this.

REPLY: As has been shown, only one person/physician has been reported to have died from pro-life violence. Quite a lopsided figure, isn't it? And the number of "pro-lifers" who commit those wrongful acts are a minute fraction of 1% of those pro-lifers. In many of the cases of violence I provided, one person was responsible for many acts in the same city/town. I'd have to find the info again, but all the acts of violence noted were attributed to about 30 people.

99% of all abortions performed are out of feminist rage or convenience. Damn shame.

Originally posted by zappafan1
*snip*
I also have issue with abortions being considered as "health care", as if being pregnant is akin to having the flu, or being sick, or like a broken arm/ankle, etc.

I can see why it's considered healthcare. If it was your chioce to have a baby (sex), was it not also your choice to jump that ramp, or climb over that wall (broken bones).

And if it was not your choice to have a baby (rape), was it also not your choice to be mugged on the street and stabbed?

By your logic, if you enganged in something on purpose that hurt you, it shouldn't be covered under healthcare. So all athletes would be exempt from healthcare. All military personel. And many other jobs that require a hint of danger.

OTOH, I can see your next argument. "But breaking your bones don't create another life"
Well, I guess I can't find fault in that argument.

But then, it all comes down to what's life. Some stem cell with NO concisouness (brain waves etc.) or a full blooded thinking sentient being. Obviously, there should be more medical examination when Life really starts. and that should be a cut off date for a abortion. Anything before that date, should be under healthcare. That's my $0.02

[edit on 7/22/2006 by Arcane Demesne]

Originally posted by zappafan1
And the number of "pro-lifers" who commit those wrongful acts are a minute fraction of 1% of those pro-lifers. In many of the cases of violence I provided, one person was responsible for many acts in the same city/town. I'd have to find the info again, but all the acts of violence noted were attributed to about 30 people.

What page did you provide a source on? It seems to contradict this:

Priests for life.
Yet in all that time, how many have pulled a trigger? Three persons. And how many victims have there been? Three have died and two have been wounded.

99% of all abortions performed are out of feminist rage or convenience. Damn shame.

So why are the other 1% of abortions performed?

Even though motives for abortion are in no way relevent to the topic at hand.. would you mind proving this or are you just posting your own prejudiced assumptions as facts hoping people will believe them without question? [Kind of goes against ATS philosophy posting bs.. then again I haven't been here for a while so the rules may've changed.]

I also find it strange that you've woven 'feminism' into the mix.. I hate to be the one to break this to you but abortion has always existed.. it predates the modern day feminist movement by several thousand years and even some animals instinctively know what plants to eat to induce miscarriage in times of famine so it's probable early humans practiced it. Judging by your posts I think you have more of a problem with women's rights in general rather abortion; sorry but feminism did not create this 'evil' so you're going to have to rewrite those placards.

[edit on 22-7-2006 by riley]

[link] www.abortionfacts.com...

[link] www.prochoice.org...

(your post) Kind of goes against ATS philosophy posting bs.. then again I haven't been here for a while so the rules may've changed.

Above are the two sources for what I posted....... If you believe I posted BS, ask a Mod. for his/her opinion; although all threads are monitored by more than one.

If it was your chioce to have a baby (sex).....

REPLY: Ummmmm, I'm pretty sure sex doesn not always result in procreation.

And if it was not your choice to have a baby (rape), was it also not your choice to be mugged on the street and stabbed?

REPLY: Rather twisted logic, but you have a right to it. Think what you will, but ending a life cannot compare to fixing a broken bone, or installing stitches, or .......

".... it all comes down to what's life. Some stem cell with NO concisouness (brain waves etc.) or a full blooded thinking sentient being.Obviously, there should be more medical examination when Life really starts.

REPLY: Being "sentient" was not and is not the issue, 'nor did I say an early fetus could be considered in that light. (Full blooded????)
'Life.... possibly meaning the opposite of not living, or "Dead"??? See external souces, below, for info on "life."

1- At 18 days after conception, a baby has a heartbeat.

2- At 6 weeks following conception, the babies brain waves can be measured. At 8 weeks after conception, the stomach, liver, and kidneys of the baby are functioning, and fingerprints have formed. At 9 weeks, the unborn child can feel pain.

3- That 700,000 abortions are performed each year in America after 9 weeks into the pregnancy.

4- The overwhelming majority of all abortions, (95%), are done as a means of birth control. Only 1% are performed because of rape or incest; 1% because of fetal abnormalities; 3% due to the mother's health problems.

1. Heartbeat. Modern technology can detect a baby's heartbeat eighteen days after conception. That is only four days after most women miss a period and begin to suspect they are pregnant. Most abortions are not performed until the eighth or ninth week of pregnancy.

2. Brain waves. Six weeks after conception signals from the fetal brain can be detected. Dream patterns have been discovered around the eighth or ninth week.

3. Independent movement. At about the sixth week, the baby in the womb can move spontaneously: Kicking, swimming, jumping and stretching. This is long before the mother will feel any sensations of movement.

4. Senses. A baby in the womb is capable of responding to touch and sound by about the eighth or tenth week. A child at that age will move away from painful stimuli, the most painful of which would be the abortionist's instrument.

5. Breathing. By about the fourteenth week, a baby's lungs are functioning and he or she will practice breathing. Vocal cords are formed by the thirteenth week, and were it not for a lack of air, the baby could be heard to cry!

If the fertilized egg is not human life, what is it? A giraffe? A grapefruit?

Some people acknowledge that it may be human life, but say it is not yet a person. What are the signs of "personhood"?

Riley: Above you will find answers to the questions you posted.
Feminism was referenced because of the increase in abortions since Roe VS: Wade, an event in the beginning of the feminist, and also Pro-Life, movements. Of course,
Roe VS: Wade has nothing to do with a 'right" to an abortion, although it has come to imply it.


[edit on 23-7-2006 by zappafan1]

Originally posted by zappafan1

If it was your chioce to have a baby (sex).....

REPLY: Ummmmm, I'm pretty sure sex doesn not always result in procreation.

jumping ramps don't always constitue broken bones either

And if it was not your choice to have a baby (rape), was it also not your choice to be mugged on the street and stabbed?

REPLY: Rather twisted logic, but you have a right to it. Think what you will, but ending a life cannot compare to fixing a broken bone, or installing stitches, or .......

I wasn't comparing the secerity of the procedure, only that...in some cases, it was not your choice to have something happen to you to recieve medical attention.

I'm comparing choice to do actions, not the actions themselves.

".... it all comes down to what's life. Some stem cell with NO concisouness (brain waves etc.) or a full blooded thinking sentient being.Obviously, there should be more medical examination when Life really starts.

REPLY: Being "sentient" was not and is not the issue, 'nor did I say an early fetus could be considered in that light. (Full blooded????)
'Life.... possibly meaning the opposite of not living, or "Dead"??? See external souces, below, for info on "life."

...
1- At 18 days after conception, a baby has a heartbeat.
...

If the fertilized egg is not human life, what is it? A giraffe? A grapefruit?

Some people acknowledge that it may be human life, but say it is not yet a person. What are the signs of "personhood"?

Thank you for those figures. I personally do not condone abortions, and after reading that a fetus' heart beats after only 18 days is amazing. I never liked abortions in the first place, but now I really dislike them.

But my point still stands. If it was not your choice to have a baby (rape), should you be expected to care for, raise, and pay for that child? Who should be responsible? It's all about choice. And I'm talking not only about choice to keep or kill a baby, but the choice to even concieve a baby. I guess that's why this issue is so hotly debtated.

by Arcane Demesne:

But my point still stands. If it was not your choice to have a baby (rape), should you be expected to care for, raise, and pay for that child? Who should be responsible? It's all about choice. And I'm talking not only about choice to keep or kill a baby, but the choice to even concieve a baby. I guess that's why this issue is so hotly debtated.

REPLY: The choice to have unprotected sex is a personal one, as you imply. Of course, only one choice is 100% sure of not getting pregnant; that, too, is hotly contested..... but it's the only sure way.

With all of the programs out there, state and federal, there is ample help available for those who wish to have the child, and that includes adoption.

The thing, too, is that those same programs are what helped to increase the number of abortions performed. Catch-22 anyone?

Wow, looking at the list to the side here and found all these wonderful topics!

Ok, Pro Life Violence... Well, yes they shoot people, blow up hospitals, beat women to death, but abortion... I was around when it was legalized. Did I agree with it then? No, but do I agree with killing adults to protect stuff that isn't born? No. So its a toss up for me. If there was a way to take care of these children I'd be more against abortion but a lot of the time there isn't so these women get abortions. Not that the Pro Lifers care as has already been pointed out once the fetus is born they could kill it and have no problem with that as long as it was born first.

Hmm, I was looking at those stats on attacks. It's wrong. It clearly says a person was stabbed but there were no injuries reported that year. What? How can you be stabbed but no injuries? I call BS on those "statistics"

Anyways, once again Pro Life people murder adults and children and babies but say aborting a fetus is wrong. Even though sometimes when they beat a pregnant woman to death she has a miscarrige before she dies so they in fact abort the baby.

Originally posted by Nygdan
heck, the pro-lifers also tend to be the ones that support the death penalty, even its extension. And they also tend to not support state welfare or rehabilitation programs. So they act like they are concerned about people, but once that person's born, they loose all concern. They talk about life, but do nothing to actually protect it.

there isn't any contradiction by supporting the death penalty- unless they advocated random death penalties in which women can select random people to die as their "choice"