The "Right View" - What is Yours?

a reply to: philosopheroftruth


Over two decades as the mundane grasp of time goes... on the Buddhist way, much of that was too many steps chasing stream entry in the extreme of running after bliss and like I knew something. Such a waste in regards to actual deepening of practice that samatha brought... I was a philosopher sort meaning the mind was very noisy and grasped all the time, like in literal succession of the visual procession... sort of like useless narration of what is occurring... perhaps the blind woman called ignorance on the first chain of causation needed a boy scout to keep her crossing the street? But doing such a thing was a mental pointlessness as volition itself could get from point A to B in mindfulness in so many other ways... these days all of it is done in silence; except the actual physical noise from point A to B.

The hearing that arises from being silence; is very Zen as holding onto a mantra? One day that mantra will issue from not oneself or another; from form itself. That is typically in old Chan and Zen literature when all that practice suddenly makes sense... of course that's where the hearing part comes from... everything starts talking, but it is more awareness that it is, as it has always been doing that in one place... ignorance. Also all of the noise in the head as concepts called thought rattling around? Way to loud to even hear it, even others one is supposed to be focused on and listening too in a conversation.

As a Theravadin I don't see the insult of greater or lesser vehicle business; fruition is the same, creating yet another duality is silly... if the mind roams in meditation it is good when it is focused on what is arising, like a stray hair becoming the worst sadist imaginable... and yet it is just a hair. The practice is great in sitting for hours with the hair, the practice is not so great when removing the hair and being done with suffering... in the end it is the end. In the same way greater and lesser vehicle... keep going through hell and suffering? Or be done with it knowing the cause?

The realization of past lives can be practiced at the end of the day mentally review and then go back and back and back... to me my entire life seemed like one long day after awhile. Then out of no where all past ones could be looked into back and back and back down to a single cell and that was enough, it felt no different in bliss as that single cell as that one consciousness of being with countless others around not knowing self from other yet... here in human form complications of concepts and ideals due to attachment to them... making them a kammic reality for a whole, well individual kamma is like it is being policed by that whole, which means if one obeys the precepts then what individual kamma? One then sees how very lacking the world kamma is in laws and rights etc. as even the innocent are guilty due to held notions and ideas and concepts by others... not real just shared becoming real.

Transforming the world is easy when there is only one form, stand up dust, or carpet has been displaced. One form transforming the entire world? Accomplished in a single thought... if held onto as a self all those held thoughts, become that self transforming the entire world by volition and grasping... right or wrong doesn't even enter the picture, because one has grasped the views of self and yet they are even there to begin with by grasping that of others.

Quite the paradox yes? Well, that place between thought can be made as wide as the vastness of space in the 7th or non existent jhana it is... the 8th is the 7th as form is in a marriage with formlessness the same way samsara and nibbana are... the same way greater and lesser vehicle is... direct, immediate, and personal. Why personal well the more of those distinctions the more discursiveness and discriminatory thinking is going to arise in the mind, and the more lax one gets towards others and apt to fall into bias where nothing has changed and thats why; impermanence, not self, and suffering are the three characteristics to all arising and passing. In the way of existence... the very four noble truths in constant action, so knowing this? One cannot help but be a Buddha or awake to the situation then and there, just as direct and immediate and personal... from the wisdom side of experiencing that suffering grasped for countless lives...

That's the part to drop for oneself, the suffering... picking it up for another is only difficult when we haven't done so. It's as easy as that... when meatarian is dropped then the humanitarian is born.

Each moment consciousness leaps is from death to birth... without attachment or burden any leap is freedom as nothing to leap from, nothing to leap too... phenomena rising and passing and it clings to YOU lol... always has so why waste effort?

a reply to: philosopheroftruth

another day i reply. iam sick today and not perfect at the moment. i had only brief situations. because my astral state was chemicaly triggered. dont even know who they where and ask my self HOW THEIR DOING. one was very arrogant kind of even . another looked out of himself (maybe an archon slave ). the 3dr one even ran away from because i somhoe during waking up find myself astraly somwhere sitting next to him. astral is dirtywork always. not that i have something against immigrant basicly, but i dont like harrasment and surveilance trickery. iam not the total ability guy even i foundmy self at "amenti" with the emerald fukn computer ( matrixmovie with keanu looks more like the sith temple but this colour.. more like they show it in tron. crystals stick in computersystems and stuff. looks more like material. not gooish or fluid. and all the aliens are involved with this)

i scratched the surface on this but wasnt that much into i found after 5 years people on the net who could explained also to me thats its fukedup and why, because it made sense what i knew from my getting lost





is this the rightsection for alien topics ?

originally posted by: Specimen
a reply to: philosopheroftruth
What is the right view, if there can be any at all?

It is a tough question, and a fun topic for philosophical discussion! What is your View? I personally think that every person will have a slightly different View based on their life experiences, and this View helps quickly make sense of their experience of Reality. Having inconsistencies in your View, or clinging to your View as Absolute, can lead to a LOT of suffering in people. I also think a View can never be 100% complete - it's a living thing that changes with you. I believe that a person's View is what defines their personallity (their conceptual designations - what is "good" and "bad", etc...).

It did stem from the caste system of Hinduism, even the myths that originated from it once up on a time ago.

This is a very good point that I briefly touched on in a few other posts. A lot of modern, secular, Buddhist practitioners will say that the Buddha always claimed his system was only about the cessation of suffering, but I don't think that stands up to scrutiny. This article talks about that specific quote, and seems to agree with my assessment.

Another interesting event in the history of Buddhism is what happened when the European colonizers started encountering 100% Buddhist societies in Asia (Sri Lanka and Japan, in this article). The Europeans tried to prove Buddhism wrong by using science as a way to convert the natives to Christianity, and they entered into a debate (which reminds me of how science is basically doing the same thing to modern Christianity, so eventually that backfired for them). The natives held the View that the Buddha had set forth in many suttas - that we are reincarnated, that reincarnation is represented in the structure of the cosmos (the Mount Meru and flat Earth in Buddhist Cosmology), that only a Buddha can see this Cosmology with Direct Knowing (OOBEs in their Subjective Body, in my View), and that a key part of Dependent Origination is reincarnation. This was even believed by the monks with the highest attainments, so they probably had "Right View" according to historical Buddhism. This was an intrinsic part of the Buddhist View, but had to be radically reinterpreted in light of evidence of a spherical Earth. It should also be noted that the science used in these debates was that the Earth was in the center of the universe, so still not correct according to modern science (but closer to Objective Reality than the Buddhist View was).

I would say that having a vastly incorrect model of Objective Reality in your View would be ignorance, and since ignorance is the main enemy in Buddhism, having Objective Reality accounted for in your View would be closer to actual "Right View". What do you think?

I don't think the world can be so easily delineated as the Buddhists do, with all the names they have given every little aspect of action and thought. People feel less anxious about a cosmology that can be explained to them so people come up with words like "sin," or "Purgatory," or "grace" to make vague concepts sound more real.

But just because you name something, that doesn't make it a real thing, and I suspect that reality is built on things that are not things and concepts that are not concepts and none of them have names.

a reply to: airowineSailorcat


Being all dream; why attach to the parts that bring you suffering; make you sick and ill? Attach to any part of any dream and that empty phenomena rolling on ceases to be empty.


Stay in your form, stop with the astral out of form business; you can get stuck as a hungry ghost... especially if you've managed to achieve nirodha the body can die and too much time has passed to get back into it.


If that occurs one has to go through the bardos of becoming, the hells animals heavens and maybe if lucky back into human to pick the path back up but better not messing around and playing with jhana states as a toy that injures and harms... seeking equanimity helps balance the dream one is in or attached too, non-bias cuts the duality and strengthens the heart to work in compassion to whomever or whatever appears in the dream. That kamma eventually becomes sufficient enough to raise one out of the hells one drags along and creates from volition of attachment or (selfish kamma).


May you be well and that simply means popping as many of those concept bubbles grasped to be such.


take care.

a reply to: BEBOG

well its strange. there are might not a lot people out there who had an dream about walking around cerntimetravel technology for accident. its sick even to claim this . iam not a milab. i give this peace out as a warning. but this tookplace on a much more soberday. AND i did lost my selfin that ring and... this was quit psychedelic. and iam still wonder how quickly things go. we all pinnball then everywhere we go. but funny how people do respond with repeating what i said intiatly ,anyway. #

its the econemy

www.google.de...

a reply to: philosopheroftruth

reply from 6:30pm


ya in fact very intresting to had oppertunity to analyze whats the different between astral projection and dreaming. lucid dreaming doesnt really happen to me, its take a few minutes when i getting lucid throughts in a dream and i wakeup. but read your self to eve lorgan and jamesbartley dream manupulation. in case ketamn your dreams become totally loaded. you think its have to be comming from the fantasies people manifest with art around you but infact is content that comes from pastlifes/onanother planet and so on (feels like "nightmares" but was very chemical induced ...)
that infact you only getting to know about only because you somehoe someway done it(travel). but feel like it was always a certain flauvor that always was in your mouth.

and i dont understand people often when they talking about god and creating. because i dont see why astral projection is shaping reality. it think more that those are getting decided at

like i dont understand the whole viewing declaration of remotviewing and viewing something astral. because with astral projection you can just paint something you wonna to see. the information packed your create does feels like astral being also. because a atralbeing is also real but appear next to that like its created by you then? its confusing, it loooks very similar, only feels littlebit different then and indypendet. also never done remoteviewing. so i almost dont understand people what they really mean with creating. like you could be astral on alienspaceships. i never really had obes with , those normal 4th dimensional were you can endup with sleeparalisys and those normal blackish demons jumping on you. i had those during falling asleepn or during wakeup process in room where i findmyself with a blue alien sitting nexto me and runningaway ... there is always something Possible. something could be with you you arent recongnizing.

because youre drunken on sober 3d reality. you start more and more to see howwmuch you underestate the broadcasted perception no wonder people in psychotronic mindcontrol programm dont own their perception in anyway ALSO

sometimes you have to high to see a clearpicture

a reply to: airowineSailorcat


Ah I see... you use substances to bring about a jhana or dream state of their own. This has gone on well as long as the effects of whatever substance has been known.

The thing about such business; is such states arising from that use... do not get rid of the attachment to the concepts binding them and only exacerbates the issue and magnifies all others.

Such states but pure ones can be had without the help or aid of any substance... just air in breathing. Of course people attach to what arises then too however they know because they are not in an altered state that is was a dream like arising. Of course what is in the danger of breathing? Not illegal... family and friends are not going to worry... so what is he or she on? Seems to be a mix of Nitrogen and Oxygen... holy hell captain thats normal... are they acting crazy and out of their mind? No... so sane it makes us seem and feel crazy. Gee wilkakers youre right... what should be do about this? Run and pretend it never happened? Done and done.

Stay in your body keep a tight reign on awareness come down to earth the here and the now...

originally posted by: BEBOG

Speaking to your new request for the direction of this thread; it sounds as if you have moved into what is known as tathagatagarbha or wearing the robe of suchness... where samsara and nirvana are one as an indivisible whole.

I'm loving your posts, and it's great fun to be able to talk to a Buddhist practitioner who is more advanced than myself - it's a great and helpful way for me to work out my View! I am far from being a Buddah (my concentration/wisdom skills are very lacking at the moment), but I know what you are trying to explain. I would say that my current path uses unique terminology/symbols, but that my final goal is the same as the Fruit of the Bodhisattva Path.

Neither either is the thus gone way for myself known as Nirodha Sammapatti. The Arhat does not fall into states for the benefit of other beings as the bodhisattva does...
...
In such a manner nirvana with remainder is the goal and the grasping on death in the nirvanic state would be to help other sentient beings as a guide on the path.

I would explain it slightly differently using my View, but we are saying the same thing in the end. To anyone who is curious about these 2 different paths, I'll break it down quickly using my View:

Different Views define different Paths you can take through life. You need the wisdom to see concepts as tools to accomplish goals, instead of as an Objective Reality. To accurately define a Path with wisdom, you first need to determine your goal (or Fruit in Buddhist thought) - with the goal defined, you can start looking for the best tools (Path) to reach that goal.

The Hearer Path in Buddhism has the Fruit of Individual Liberation as its Goal, so they seek an "Abiding Nirvana" for themselves (sitting in emptiness, free from all conception). This removes them from being a problem, and accomplishes their individual goal of being free from all suffering.

The Bodhisattva Path in Buddhism seeks the Fruit of Liberating all Sentient Beings, so they hold off on just sitting in an "Abiding Nirvana", and instead attempt to realize a "Non-Abiding Nirvana" (a state of non-attachment in life where they are free to use concepts without getting stuck). This allows those in the Bodhisattva path to pick up different concepts as they see fit, without attachment, to achieve the goal of helping people. This requires a lot of wisdom to accomplish and hold, so following the Bodhisattva Ideals is necessary, as is having a strong meditation practice. The split between the Hearers and the Bodhisattvas in Buddhism would be similar (but not the same) as the split between the Contemplatives and Actives in Christianity.

Here is a quick quote from the meditation book I mentioned elsewhere in the thread (Stages of Meditation) that may help define this:

"The Buddhas (Bodhisattvas) have already achieved all their own goals, but remain in the cycle of existence for as long as there are sentient beings. This is because they possess great compassion. They also do not enter the immensely blissful abode of nirvana like the Hearers. Considering the interests of sentient beings first, they abandon the peaceful abode of nirvana as if it were a burning iron house. Therefore, great compassion alone is the unavoidable cause of the non-abiding nirvana of the Buddha."

I like to think of it using the tool analogy. If you couldn't reach a bolt with your favorite crescent wrench (your View, in this analogy), it would be unwise to not use a ratchet (another View) if it does the job better - wisdom helps you choose the best tool for the goal, and also allows you to not become attached to either the wrench or ratchet (attachment to the wrong tool would prevent you from accomplishing your goal of removing the bolt).

So if right view was lost even before he left this world for the other... I am sorry to say very few can even teach a single word of dhamma.

I think there are a lot of people who understand the Dhamma of the Buddha (at least in their own ways - you seem to  be one of them), so it seems he did not fail! I also loved your post replying to me after this one (that I'm currently replying to), but I think it stands for itself. It is a beautiful breakdown of your View, but there are really no questions in it to answer, or discussion to be had about it. I already explained Reincarnation using my View (which helps me release my "Fetters"), and I think you hold a completely Buddhist View of Reincarnation (which helped you release your "Fetters"). Thanks for giving me some information in that post though - 20 years is 10 more than I have practiced, so it's fun and unique to hear the View and wisdom you have found on your path to personal Liberation!

a reply to: philosopheroftruth


The two are honestly not really different; once one's own attachment has ended; that does not mean others are not attached... thats where the vital heat arises. Otherwise one would be a corpse... in Nirodha. The Buddha never called himself a Bodhisattva he did however call himself an Arhat in the Cannon.

I suppose that where the paths really diverge... in the writings. 1st council got together and wrote the three baskets... I am of that sort. The succeeding councils? Right vocation and the pratimoksha conflict... in the handling of money as a monastic is an example of that. Of course they are ways around that; and well circumventing those rules by a system is an exploitation of the rules for monastics... not that of lay followers though, which are who are supposed to deal with such things as the Abbot points out what the temple needs... and directs monks in order of seniority of that temple to carry out what needs to be done.

Greed is such a subtle thing and so far reaching, that even small bits of food are addressed as being very serious, same with the robe and ones intent in wearing... patchwork had rules or else it had to be turned over, The alms rounds meant food, not accumulation of money... so what has been seen as commercialism is a direction that brings in masses heaps of bodies, but are they there to practice to walk in the footsteps of the patriarchs... or has it just become vocation?

There is genuine transmission out there... but speaking of goals is to speak of volition or kamma a future beyond one conscious leap to the next... is it the very next step; or countless? Thats how the path gets lost... better to make the same vow as the Buddha and not rise from the seat until one has accomplished; than continue to spread so much suffering with a goal so far off. Bodhicitta is used as an excuse it means awakened mind. To wear suchness to speak dhamma is tathagatagarba.

One graps Buddha on death and realization of going through the bardo... or else one becomes Buddha. That's the realization difference. Burning up the remaining lives in "one" life or the putting off. Each time the historical Buddha turned the wheel... he burned up another life, he did this twelve times just to teach. How many went by to see the house builder? Who knows who knows... kamma still arose like the headache of rapping on the fishes head when he was a child. It was a knot of kamma that needed to be worked out, otherwise how would the lifeforms known as fish want to support him in nibanna? He had to take the lump himself many years later...

So much kamma out there from countless volitions and graspings... that's why people say kamma is hard to see and follow. It can become flat and cut off that does not mean others kamma in attaching to YOU gets cut off... as so many go through the bardo states in ignorance and unawareness, they are going to attach to well their mom, their dad, a friend, a loved one when the heart asks. then kamma works it out and like a dream there they are again... a tulpa is formed for a subtle body until it becomes a solid one... in unawareness that can occur in an instant, over night... in awareness as a first experience... lol who says the bardo has ever ended? Becoming is a link in the chain of causation... don't be afraid of the wheel investigate the 12 nidanas... visit the heavens and hells course through all the animals like electricity flowing along until one "gets" you.

Purposefully killing an ant... is enough to take rebirth as kamma goes. So the Bodhisatta ideal is just that an ideal... it is a path, and well it will have to be renounced at some point, and when that point arises, it arises as that is just kamma from all the right action. After stream entry it's inevitable... too late can't run away only harm oneself and others more.... lol don't!

a reply to: BEBOG

I love your poetry, and I think I understand your View (you said you were Theravadin, and I have studied their View). It seems like you're trying to teach me or convince me of your View? I'm glad you found a View that calms your mind, but I'm a little confused to hear you try to explain Non-Attachment by telling everyone that they need to attach onto a View of Reincarnation and Bardos as being Absolutely real. To clarify - am not a Buddhist, as that would mean that I am attached to the concepts that the Buddha set forth (this seems like it would be paradoxical thing to do). Instead, you could probably describe my View (if using Buddhist symbols, as you prefer) as a Madiyamika starting a Bodhisattva Path.

Those concepts have no Absolute Reality in my View - they are just tools for accomplishing goals in Relative Reality. This is a good article that explains how many traditional Buddhist masters were attached to an unreal concept of the world, even though they shouldn't have been attached to any concept. Those tools, just as you said of the Bodhisattva tools, "will have to be renounced at some point" as well (according to your View). I'm sure I'm just misunderstanding you somewhere along the way, so correct me where I'm wrong! We're probably saying the same thing, but are slightly misunderstanding each other.

I'm also sure that it's possible for me to use concepts without getting attached to them (which you seem to think is not possible for yourself maybe?). This is very helpful, but requires a lot of Wisdom in order to not get lost. Using concepts isn't the problem in my View - attaching onto them as Absolute would be the cause of suffering (and Karma), but using them with Skillful Means would prevent the attachment. Generosity in daily life is a key part of Skillful Means, but that doesn't mean that Generosity is Absolutly real or necessary, nor would it be appropriate in every situation - it depends on the Goal and situation.

A Bodhisattva knows that what he does and the tools he uses have no Absolute Reality, but he does what he does anyway to help the people who currently think that there is an Absolute. Sitting in peace would only accomplish his own goal of being free from suffering, but would accomplish nothing else. An Abiding Nirvana seems to be necessary for those who cannot help but get attached to their tools (so they need to induce a conceptless state to have peace).

One example would be if you had a child who was suffering from a disease (lets say a life-threatening infection that can easily be cured with antibiotics). What would you do in your View? Would you sit in Abiding Nirvana so that the child does not bother you? Would you teach the child to Meditate to not care about their upcoming death? Would you use all the tools you can find to cure the disease? Would you use a combination of the above three Paths? I'm curious what your answer will be, as it directly pertains to the using of concepts as tools to accomplish goals in Relative Reality.

Once again - I'm having great fun with your posts so far, so thank you!

a reply to: philosopheroftruth


Not a Buddhist but on the Boddhisatta path? Have you not taken refuge? The Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sanga, or if you prefer The Buddha, The Dharma, The Sangha.

Saying oneself is not a Buddhist is to say one does not embrace the sanga or be a part of it; that includes the full moon and like today new moon days the quarter moon days the festivals where millions also come together and be family, dhamma protectors. So when one finally does become a Buddha having renounced those vows... where will sanga be?

Head stuck in dhamma
knows no foot
arms know not grasp
with which to swim

om ma ha ti ti sa ka va re ta na ga

originally posted by: airowineSailorcat
a reply to: philosopheroftruth

another day i reply. iam sick today and not perfect at the moment.

Hopefully you're feeling better now! We're never perfect, but being sick can get frustrating!

i had only brief situations. because my astral state was chemicaly triggered.

I had many such experiences ("chemicaly triggered") when trying out the Shaman Path when I was younger - it was interesting to say the least. It did seem to take a toll on my mental well-being after a while though, and the experiences were never clear/wise enough to get me clear insight (they just led to more questions, seeking, and grasping).

Some people have used the Shamanistic View successfully though, so it was probably just not the right path for my disposition. Shamanism seems similar (but less deep) than the Tantra (or Vajrayana) Path in Buddhism.

i found after 5 years people on the net who could explained also to me thats its fukedup and why, because it made sense what i knew from my getting lost

It sounds like you're still working out your View, and I'm glad you found tools to help you from getting lost along your way! One of the best tools I found early on was a solid Meditational Practice - this proved to be indespensible in developing Wisdom, and is helpful in all areas of my life! I linked a book in an earlier post that explain the entire process ("Stages of Meditation" with commentary from the Dalai Lama).

is this the rightsection for alien topics ?

I think it could be if it's related to your View! I posted those 3 experiences (in an earlier reply to you) as a way to explain how those happened with my View. All 3 of those experiences I listed (including the Alien Grey) took place in Relative Reality in my view, not Objective Reality. Relative Reality is your mind, which is produced by your brain. I then explained the step-by-step of how I perceived my mind was doing this.

originally posted by: airowineSailorcat
a reply to: philosopheroftruth
ya in fact very intresting to had oppertunity to analyze whats the different between astral projection and dreaming.

Thoughts, Dreams, Lucid Dreams, and OOBEs are all all the same thing in my View - they are just different ways to view the process of thinking. The mind was created to render the Objective environment for survival, and we (humans) have just hijacked that system to think about other things that are not the Objective environment. This is why thoughts are perceived like places.

i dont understand people often when they talking about god and creating. because i dont see why astral projection is shaping reality.

I agree. "Astral Projection" is just the act of seeing thoughts from the inside. If you have an OOBE and are still in a copy of the Objective World, that copy is just in your mind. You can only perceive what your mind can render, so we are always living in this mental copy of Objective Reality when in waking life. This does not mean that there is no Objective Reality outside our minds though.

because with astral projection you can just paint something you wonna to see. the information packed your create does feels like astral being also. because a atralbeing is also real but appear next to that like its created by you then?

I explained how your mind renders other minds in my previous post, and it's the same as what I just wrote above. To interact with other people's minds in your daily waking life, you first need to render a copy of their mind inside your own mental copy of Objective Reality.

there is always something Possible. something could be with you you arent recongnizing.

I always leave open the possibility of new information! I doubt we can ever know everything there is to know about Reality, so I try to not deal in Absolutes!

sometimes you have to high to see a clearpicture

I doubt that being high can show a clearer picture of reality that a Meditating mind can, but there can be benefits to some people. I was able to determine a lot of information about how my mind was rendering my Relative Reality while on the Shaman Path, but a lot of the deeper Visions promoted delusion (and thus suffering). I stopped that path many years ago when I received the Madhyamika teaching after a strong experience with the jungle tea. I never went back to Shamanism after that Insight was integrated.

a reply to: BEBOG

It's very cool that you found a community with rituals that bring meaning to your life, and that help you lessen your suffering! Not many people have that, so it's probably a great part of your life that you should keep!

I personally have no need for dogma in my Path, so I tend to avoid attaching onto things of that nature. This is why I am not a Buddhist - this also helps me be more accepting of different people and their Paths (and allows me to join in any community or none at all). I used the concepts of Bodhisattva and Madhyamika to try and explain my View to you using terms that you might be more familiar with (since it seemed like you were not understanding my confusing View). I already explained in other posts that I am not a Buddhist, so you could learn more about my View by reading my other posts in this thread if you are interested!

Your posts are interesting, but it would be more fun if you answered my questions to you instead of trying to prove me wrong and gain a new convert to the Śrāvakayāna View!

Love your posts as always!

a reply to: philosopheroftruth


Ah the words were wearing the robes of a stage performer... as you said concepts... you can speak in the same voice as you normally do and the concept is known in both... like sun and sol being the same. Neither make a difference unless discursive and discriminating thought occur... but how else is wisdom to arise? From volition past.

Madhyamika is best seen in the diamond sutta... replace tathagata with "suchness" and it becomes much clearer... so a word swapped can make such a path easier... then later it goes from rote grasping into simply understanding; then it gets spoken into ones own words... just as all of that said seen as foreign concepts to grasp once were just plainly speaking without any confusion, and if there was once asked for clarity... so then an example was given in such cases... a likeness a mask that wears the same truth... no different than sun or sol, and yet both of those are empty outside of the moment of expression, if someone does not care at the moment of expression... then who is left empty along with that thing shinning on?

But Madhyamika, thats Vajrayana business although, it still falls under the head of mahayanna and yet all of that fell out of the basket in others plain words or view from the Abhidhamma much of that was as confusing to people like the surganama sutta... so putting it into words had to adapt to whatever culture it flowed through like water for the meaning to remain intact. Of course, the hearers as they have been reffered too have been studying the three baskets for a long time... and yet many are more concerned with the rituals and appearances than the emptiness that arises with nonattachment.

Floor and ceiling do not cease to exist but yet they do... thats emptiness, knowing they are there without awareness is ignorance as the mind is moving without care in regard to them... mindfulness is full of awareness of the ear, the eye, the nose, taste, and sensation... and yet remains just as quiet to all of that.

One cannot run away from that so it is suggested one sits reigns the mind back in as it drifts off into delusion/dreaming, once that stops reality is present my leg hurts, my ass itches... who are you telling this too? As the body normally handles that in mindlessness... so ha! sitting and not moving makes one mindful of what is arising and passing in the moment... so what makes one cease to grasp? Letting go... one can let go by embracing because itch ceases to be itch it is hair, but then hair ceases to be hair because it was itch which was right? doesnt matter because it is now burning... meaning sensation is aflame. Eventually like the ox herding pictures ox being "itch, hair, burning etc" and mind being full of ox and not mind... a mirror reflecting concept. So then self and ox are left alone... and bliss or peace arises.

So many sorts of hairs itching and well scratching is the option not the rule, so volition to do or not to do... that sensation will go away focused on it or not the point that drew a circle around it in full? Awareness. Head full of so much... leaves so much to be aware of lost in the void... aware of all of that is to be void... and void within void is peace only because it is samsara and nirvana as one union.

It does not matter to me if you are buddhist or not, what your path is... I will tell anyone their shoe is untied when it is, who wouldnt? Some let another know it is untied even when it is not.

In the case of all of this I suppose is mutual understanding and wisdom... thats all knowledge does; feed the intellect. As long as it remains hungry it will search for food.

And here I am stuffing you silly with a buffet of concepts.

So please excuse my rudeness.

a reply to: BEBOG

No rudeness at all! I was hoping that my post wouldn't come off as accusing or rude, so I'm glad my correct intention came through! You seem to be stable and have a lot more knowledge of the Buddhist Practice than myself, so I was just trying to get more information out of you (selfishly, I'm not afraid to admit).

Using your View, what would you do in the following situation (from my previous post)?:

What if you had a child who was suffering from a disease (lets say a life-threatening infection that can easily be cured with antibiotics). What would you do in your View? Would you sit in Abiding Nirvana so that the child does not bother you? Would you teach the child to Meditate to not care about their upcoming death? Some other action?

I'm honestly very curious of what the wisdom from the View of Śrāvakayāna would say in this situation, and the answer will give me a clearer understanding.

originally posted by: Blue Shift

I don't think the world can be so easily delineated as the Buddhists do, with all the names they have given every little aspect of action and thought.

The interesting thing about Buddhist tools is that they also acknowledge that these names are only Conceptual Designations assigned by our mind. We need these while functioning in Relative Reality, but they are not Absolutely real.

People feel less anxious about a cosmology that can be explained to them so people come up with words like "sin," or "Purgatory," or "grace" to make vague concepts sound more real.

True, but I wouldn't say that living without concepts would be better than designating them - we need concepts to get things done. The trouble would be attaching onto these Views as Absolute Reality. For example:

I'm not a Christian, but I understand parts of the system. The Christian system uses the tools of Grace and Surrender to God as a way to deal with suffering - if you believe that God has a good (incomprehensible) plan no matter what happens, it's easier to control your mind and not get depressed. This system is a great way to use belief as a tool to get something done (to resolve your depression), but you will get attached and suffer if you are lacking the wisdom to be in control of your mind (believing the tool of the Christian View to be Absolutely real instead of as a way to accomplish a goal). This individual attachment can also cause more suffering in the world if the followers start fighting over who's View is Absolutely real.

But just because you name something, that doesn't make it a real thing, and I suspect that reality is built on things that are not things and concepts that are not concepts and none of them have names.

Do you have your View sorted out, or are you still working on it? I would love to hear some details or hear about the experiences you used as a basis if you have. Being Agnostic is cool too - I just think that your mind has a View whether you are aware of it or not, and knowing this View helps you to have more control.

a reply to: philosopheroftruth


First I would be wondering how I came into the possession of a child... where are it's parents? Thats the reality part. If you want the fantasy part; I'm not looking to have children... the hypothetical; I find it interesting that the hypodermic comes up... both having the same root hypo then the growth,... thetical as superior "godlike" knowledge and then under the skin with an irritation to get there.

I'm not irritated that you threw back the cover and admitted you wanted to probe me with a hypothetical... If it was my child go ahead and give them the antibiotic; although I know there is no such thing as antibiotic to help anyone except the germ phobic and pharmaceutical industry... we just can't mentally evolve fast enough as a species. So accepting the lot as a species whether the entire thing be in ignorance or not? Is a way of the bodhisattva. The eightfold path and code of ethics are such so that no matter where one goes? They will not be an adversary or enemy... so one accepts whatever lot is cast on you, in grace and strength, then simply teach those seeking where such grace and strength comes from... as said like the hypothetical the disease and problem do not exist anywhere except in the mind as a creation of it... sure death still occurs in those with such beliefs in strong attachment to that opposite called life; which is the number one cause of death taking all the ignorance that the two revolve around out of the equation... then it disbands ceases to exist except in ignorance. So many things or conceptual circles the Buddha found it easier just to call that entire swirling mass; Samsara... the world governed by three circles; Greed, Hate, and delusion... ignorance being the first chain or nidana? Dana is a gift ni is the opposite or reverse attachment that came before... that is seen as a head a demon mara death but it is YOU. You know where that chain is as it is always spinning... when one comes to awareness from sleep or whatever? Ignorance will be that first chain out of a formless jhanna... otherwise, others are already steeped in their chain...

Are they biting a sense if awake or asleep yes... in either gross or subtle body; this is the two worlds... traversing between them is nirvana knowing the crossing back and forth back and forth is mastered with practice. Kamma is just gnawing on a chain and ignorance is not knowing one is a slave to it.

Accepting the needle is the better kamma, over time the child will come to understand such. Hating the needle is just samsara and to dwell there is to learn that ALL "conditioned" beings are attached in some manner to not self, impermanence, and suffering. The path to the unconditioned; must remove greed, hate, and delusion from not only one's life FIRST as the path... then that of others or not... one cannot forget the prattyekka buddhas... which is who the mahayanna are actually refferring to as lesser not theravadins. The Arhat is no different than a buddha... except in name of which by that point in time are too numerous to even know them all. The Gotama Buddha had too many names to even mention which is why he said tathagata or suchness... whatever quality of the skandas one would be attached too then that is his likeness or being... such that you grasped that I am now that due to the ignorance involved in the grasping and not knowing because of delusion, and if grasped in hate... hate does not cease by hate.

So grasping this matter or form and calling it a hypodermic does not mean that is even what is occuring; what is occuring is attachment; and well such is the nature of attachment... makkyo humans share the same dream or at least try too as one large mass and fight about it wont work hate is involved because greed is involved; gods and titans same thing but it is like humans with the unity... a democratic system but then the issue with that is heaven or hell? As the yes or no is too confining... the Buddha seeing such when asked something he would say no three times to create the three worlds necessary then go back and turn on of the wheels to yes... then go teach in the third until both of those came into balance. The yes and the no were then understood and resolved...

Anyways that is peacemaker business; and well after awhile one sort of retires; they speak through various mediums... and others simply go about the work they know how to do without interfering with them. There is evolution of mind, evolution of speech, and evolution of body... all three of those take time depending on the grasping involved. Oneself? lol grasping done... others well thats where the matter of time exists.

originally posted by: BEBOG
a reply to: philosopheroftruth


First I would be wondering how I came into the possession of a child... where are it's parents?

Haha - I would be wondering the same thing if I suddenly found a random child in my care!

Thats the reality part. If you want the fantasy part; I'm not looking to have children...

I was asking this as a way to explain to people how a householder could follow a Buddhist Path (in your View), since you stated in a previous reply:

"Such a thing is not easy to accomplish outside of an aesthetic setting, as a house holder a lot of time has to be devoted to practice"

I took this to mean that a householder can follow this path, but that it just takes a lot of time (maybe I'm wrong and you actually don't think it's possible, which makes sense, too). This would mean that my hypothetical could come into reality for some people (and thus should have an answer in your View).

If it was my child go ahead and give them the antibiotic

Some questions that I'm curious about in relation to your answer and Path:

1.) How do you get your child antibiotics if nobody had created the medicine yet (like if every adult in the world had deep practice and was in an Abiding Nirvana instead of working with concepts)?
2.) What would you do in this situation if there were no antibiotics available?
3.) Can you invent an antibiotic without using concepts?
4.) How did the Buddha not know how to make antibiotics if he were Omniscient?

although I know there is no such thing as antibiotic to help anyone except the germ phobic and pharmaceutical industry... we just can't mentally evolve fast enough as a species.

1.) Do you mean to say that Buddhas do not get sick (probably not, but don't want to misunderstand)?
1a.) If Buddhas still get physical illness, do you think an attitude where everyone is unattached to everything (including sick children) would be best?
1b.) If Buddhas do not get physical illness, why give the child the antibiotic?

as said like the hypothetical the disease and problem do not exist anywhere except in the mind as a creation of it...

1.) Why would you give the child antibiotics then?
1a.) Would this decision be made out of attachment?
2.) Wouldn't teaching the child not to designate between sick and not sick be a better goal?
3.) Whose mind is creating the infection?
4.) If there is no problem outside your mind, why upset your mind with the concepts needed to give the child the medicine?

sure death still occurs in those with such beliefs in strong attachment to that opposite called life; which is the number one cause of death taking all the ignorance that the two revolve around out of the equation...

A Buddha's mind is free from conception, and thus free from death or life. More questions:

1.) The physical body of the historical Buddha did die though, correct?
1a.) How did his physical body die?

We have many Paths to create antibiotics, but (in my View) I would say that you can define a goal (in this case, the goal would be creating antibiotics in a cheap way while minimizing antibiotic resistance in order to help people suffering from disease), and then use science to determine the best Path to meet that goal. Greed can get in the way here, but that's where the tools of wisdom and non-attachment come in. No attachment or suffering is necessary in this process - a more Skillful path may later arise with more info.

I understand using this system to manage your mind and its suffering, but it seems impossible to be Compassionate (in the more Skillful ways) without using concepts. It seems to me that the world is a better place when there are many different Paths working together. What do you think?

I'm having a lot of fun, but let me know if I'm making you uncomfortable (or disturbing your practice) by making you think about hypothetical situations! Also, thanks for spending the time to respond - feel free to answer all or none of the questions I posed! I only want to increase "Merit" in our exchange, not cause disturbing emotions.

Lizards.