Sometimes Whole Civilizations Just Vanish

originally posted by: punkinworks10
a reply to: FauxMulder

Clovis is not a "civilization" it is a culture, and clovis did not "disappear", as the environment around them changed they had to adapt their range and lifestyle. And as they moved away from their ancestral core range in the southern plains/south east and eastern seaboard, they met and mixed with different peoples and integrated into existing groups.
The anzick child is a product of the clovis meeting up with south americans who had migrated north bringing their thick bodied points with them. This meet up likely happened in montana/idaho area, where an ancient stone quarry shows that three distinct groups of people used the quarry at the same time.
In california clovis gave rise to the chumash and the yokuts and influenced the dieguito culture of so cal.

Right, sometimes such conceptualizations bother me. It's like how sometimes people ask where the Maya disappeared to. They didn't, there are over 20 modern Mayan groups still alive and well in modern Guatemala. They did, however, abandon the ancient stone cities for the highlands for the most part.

a reply to: Painterz

Hey Painterz do you have any links to those images with books etc ?
id love to take a look
thanks

a reply to: FauxMulder

Awesome read while at work SF

Dan Carlin Celtic Holocausta reply to: SkeptiSchism

This is really long but also very interesting. I am about a third of the way through it. You can also download it as a podcast.

originally posted by: face23785
a reply to: punkinworks10

The Picts remind me of the Woads in the 2004 movie King Arthur, the Celtic rebels that held off the Romans from invading northern Britain and wore full body war paint. Is this simply a movie trope or is there some basis to that? Hollywood obviously isn't the best source of history.

There is some truth to it. The word 'pictish' comes from the root of the word picture, and the Romans tell us that the Picts were known for being painted head to foot in designs and patterns.

We don't know if this was tattoos or body paint. It almost certainly wasn't woad, that's a later invention. But they had something like woad. And it's probably reasonable to assume the designs on their bodies were similiar to the designs on their carved stones.

We also know from the archaeology that the Romans certainly got into Pictish lands, one mile up the road from me there is a Pictish hillfort, two miles in the other way is a Roman camp, about as far north and west as the romans got into the middle of Scotland, before they were turned back and decided it just wasn't worth the hassle.


Now, I'm quite sure if the Highlands of Scotland had been rich in gold and silver and lead, then the Romans would have come here with more troops and wiped the Picts out. But the Picts held off what they sent. And soon after the Romans returned to trying to hold the lowlands instead of venturing into the Highlands.

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: Painterz

Hey Painterz do you have any links to those images with books etc ?
id love to take a look
thanks

I'm afraid I don't, I had access at university to catalogues of all of the Pictish stones, and they were in there. But I'm afraid I cannot off the top of my head recall which stones it was and where.

The wiki page on the Picts refer to them as well in the language section:

en.wikipedia.org...

But regrettably doesn't provide examples.

a reply to: FauxMulder

very interesting stuff, thanks for putting this together

a reply to: Painterz

Hey painterz , cool well its a nugget of information that ive never really heard before so its something to go on, i'll do some digging and I never get tired of reading about the peoples of Scotland.
Thanks

a reply to: crunchypeople

At one time the Celtic tribes reached as far east as Anatolia and were threatening even to the Step tribes of Eurasia, they once put fear into the Greek's and actually conquered Rome on several occasion with Roman paying them tribute until the birth of the Legion's and the rise of Rome.

Celtic though was a culture more than a people and Gaelic's/Gaul's is more a measure of a people than the dominant Celtic culture ever was.

By that measure WE still exist today though are a lot more mixed perhaps, Gaul's of France and Spain - the Spanish Gaul's were so fearsome they ended up working for the Roman's and were never really conquered, think about it as being Rome's Afghanistan - they never met the roman's in staged battle and fought guerrilla tactic's but they are noted for there famous sword's such as the Iberian Falcata which was actually superior to the similar Greek Weapon and even better of far superior metallurgical quality to anything else of the period, perhaps those ancient craftsmen were even the ancestors of the later Toledo Sworsmith's.

Over here in Britain and Eira the Gaelic people's enjoyed a long respite before Rome finally reached these shore's, though they committed terrible atrocity's against there ancient Gaulish enemy's the Roman's also eventually integrated them - once there spirit was broken - into the Roman Empire and in fact it was the descendant's of these same Gaul's that eventually ended the power of the Hun's and there Germanian tribal serf's when Romanised but by that time almost independent Gaul legionaries fought a major battle against them ending there period of expansion and precipitating the fall of the Hun Empire.

Over in Britain before that period though the Roman's finally came here too and conquered, with an uprising following the Rape of a formerly friendly vassal celtic noble woman and her daughters by the Roman's, this female Celtic queen of the icenea tribe Boudicca after forming an alliance of tribe's that reached hundreds of thousand's nearly defeated the roman's but missed an opportunity to link up with the northern tribe's whom were also having there own independent revolt against the Roman's, it was actually the fighting style of the British warriors that led to there failure, one on one a Celtic warrior was a match for a roman, perhaps more so as the Celt's had longer sword's but the British Celt's specialized in exactly that, One on One combat and against unit tactics employed by the Roman's they failed dreadfully and were broken when the Roman's finally brought an organized army against them.

Meanwhile the last truly unconquered Gaelic Celt's continued isolated in Eira and among the Pict tribes of Caledonia (there is still debate as to whether the Pictish were also Gaelic as they had there own language so may have been a remnant of an earlier people.), eventually after the Roman's retreated the now Civilized and more cosmopolitan British whom had lived under first Roman Tyranny and had then enjoyed the Pax Romana as over those four hundred year's power had moved from Rome to it's provinces were left defenseless against the Saxon/Hunnic Invaders from Germania, the men were mostly killed by these new arrival's but the Woman it seem's from genetic analysis were simply married or taken as wives by the Saxon/Hunnic invaders - I say hunnic because the welsh legend about there arrival after King Vortigan (a Roman British Chieftain whom wanted to be high King - Pendragon of Britain) invited them as mercenary's and it went sour named the two first Saxon Chiefs as Hengist which mean's the Stallion and Horsa which mean's Horse which were both actually Hunnic Names and not actually Germanic Name's.

This later invasion drove the Mixed Romano Britain's whom also included people's from all over the former Roman empire steadily westward until they ended up in the Swamp land's of North west England (now long drained and turned to farmland) and wales, though these Saxon/Hun's had little impact in Caledonia until the Norse joined the invasion's and actually then invaded the Saxon's whom in there turn had become comfortable and complacent, they though broke in Eira and were eventually routed by the Irish clan's under Brian Baru, they also failed to take the mountains of wales and Caledonia were the fierce people's toughened by generations of war held them back though the welsh lowland's and the Caledonian lowland's were settled extensively as were the rest of the British isles including Scotland by the Norse - mainly the Dane's.

Then after the defeat of the viking's (Limerick in Eira is an old Viking city as are many other's showing they were there also extensively) in Eira under Brian Baru whom was murdered while he was praying in private by vengeful Viking's the Gaelified descendants of both the Gael's and the Gaelic/Dane Mc Clan's spread out to settle in Caledonia eventually defeating the Danes' there as well and merged after a marriage ended the conflict between them with the local Pictish people's.

But it's a hell of a lot more complex than that, in short the Gaelic people's have survived to this day though like myself most of them have also ancestors from much further afield than just the Gaelic/Celtic world.

So I would'nt pull the Roman's beard's too much about it and the Roman empire is as much a legacy of the Celtic/Gaelic history as it is of the Roman history, in fact the Last true Roman's were driven from there city and built Venice 1 and then 2 and of course Northern Italy was already Gaelic - Milan was a Gealic/Celtic settlement before being Romanised and if it was not for the Celt's Roman would never have risen, the Etruscan Empire would have lingered a small and insignificant presence and likely the great empire would have been the Carthaginian empire which would have risen in it's place and far more brutal than the Roman empire - they even sacrificed baby's to there patron Goddess which the Roman's - no strangers to virgin sacrifice themselves hated.

The roman's were also shocked at the Druid sacrifice though we must also note how the Roman's deliberately played down the Celt's great achievement's many of which only now are coming to light.

The Celt's had Road's - not only the Roman's though the few that have survived to be examined were made of Oak not stone, they had mighty fortress, advanced by the Roman standards of the day war Chariot's though Roman tactic's rendered them useless and better metallurgy than the Roman's which allowed them to make long slender sword's while the Roman's Gladius was in fact little more than a large dagger, by the time of the Spatha the Celt's had long been absorbed into the Empire.

a reply to: LABTECH767

after reading that I cant help but think the romans created christianity to defeat the celtic culture

interesting stuff

a reply to: sapien82

By just around that time the Roman's and Celt's were fully integrating so I'd wager they had an even grander motive....

The impression I've gotten n recent months from studying / editing on every period documentary I can find across the ancients is, well on the one hand Christianity was spreading via the roads not unlike ideas spread on todays Internet, and was a nuisance anyways...

But that by worshiping one god / one man instead of many the devotion was more absolute. They had already been fascinated by the observation when they first conquer Judea. It became even more obvious with the Christian's. Which of course jives right at home with their Hail Caesar worship control scheme metric that was working so well (and always had since the first civilizations king / pharaoh worship).

originally posted by: Nickn3

originally posted by: stormcell
Clovis people have been thought to have disappeared due to a extreme solar flare event or even a distant supernova that caused intense bombarbment of the North American continent. It would have damaged the DNA of every mammal and even the North polar ice sheets. It was thought to have taken the Earth out of the ice age.

Do you mean climate change, global warming? Interesting.

This is the paper. It's really heavy into nuclear physics; thermal neutrons, secondary neutrons. The theory is that there was a supernova in a location called the North Solar Spur. It would have heated the atmosphere to 1000C in Michigan and caused mutations in crops.

abob.libs.uga.edu...

heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov...

"The North Polar Spur - perhaps the most spectacular coherent structure in the soft X-ray sky - has been completely mapped for the first time at high resolution in the ROSAT/PSPC survey. The North Polar Spur is part of a hot interstellar bubble created by winds of young, hot stars and several supernova explosions."

originally posted by: Hecate666
a reply to: Murgatroid
Science is excellent, if done by the right people and the right way. Strangely enough your meme alone could be treated as a hypothesis and tested by science. I have the feeling though that it wouldn't stand up to much.

I have a feeling that science has already done just that, and that it has stood and been recreated time and tine again. An entire field of study is dedicated to getting you to buy, believe, or trust someone or something that may otherwise be unbuyable, unbelievable, or untrustworthy. Perceived credibility plays a huge role in persuasion on both peraonal and mass scales. From Edward Bernays "the father of public relations" and Ivy Lee "the grandfather of Public Relations" to the Bernays inspired Joseph Goebbels to the Soviets and back to America again, I believe we've pretty much proven to the best of scientific abilitu that people will believe something completely and sometimes obviously false simply because a scientist said it.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: FauxMulder


A gobal flood should certainly leave the ruins and wash
away the people. Damned if that isn't what we have all
over the world. Science that dismisses a historical
document because it is also a religious text isn't even
science.

It's propaganda.

Where does the extra water come from? Or is it just displaced?
Because I would imagine if it's ocean water we would see a salinated level when digging deep dirt samples.

I just don't see where the flood water comes from?

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: LABTECH767

after reading that I cant help but think the romans created christianity to defeat the celtic culture

interesting stuff

Mutiple religions have been created by men to control those beneath them, and to rally them for a 'unified' cause

a reply to: GreenGunther

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

a reply to: sapien82

Folk's I am sorry you see the need to discuss religion on this thread, it had little to do with that though yes religion's can and have been used by mankind to twist there followers to there will and Christianity which I personally hold to as truth, a true religion is sadly no exception to this rule, every religion and cult right or wrong, real or false has been used by those on positions of power and administration to justify there wars which have in the case of many of them actually gone against the nature of the religion.

But don't you think that Rome would rather have stuck by it's own religion's, the Roman's and the Patrician class (elite class) as well as the cattle of Rome the Plebian (you have heard the insult pleb) class whom were the common folk of Rome were no exception to this rule, they were exceptionally superstitious and in fact there religion's were in many way's much like modern Hinduism, oh not in context but in worship and level of belief.

The adoption by Rome under Constantine of Christianity first required that the entrenched faith's and traditions' be smashed along with there culture - pagan Rome and that there already be enough Christian's to ensure the transition was a successful one - in other words an empire already turning christian (in fact Constantine adoption was probably after the empire was already almost christian of it's own accord or when Christianity had become one of the strongest belief's within it) so this was counter to the will of any group of men in positions of power wanting to use Christianity as there tool though such did come along later once it was established so to be frank that is not why it happened, it happened because people believed of there own accord in Jesus, in what they heard from others about him and even saw miracles done in his name and later enough of those that did survived the fall of Rome for it to continue as a major world faith to this day and in the faith of those of us whom believe into eternity.

So I can't agree with you on those point's.
The point's I do agree is that there are those that will, have and do whom abuse the faith of people to whip them up into frenzies and use them for war as we see in the extremists of Islam and which did happen under the Norman class of overlords of western Europe whom freely used the name of Christ to justify there petty wars on there neighbors in order to sack there city's and steal there lands, that however was NOT the church, it was men, men not God.

As for occurrences such as the battle of Lepanto though, well you would likely never have been born had that not occurred and if you had been born you would now be kissing a carped with your butt in some other person's face several time's a day while you all pointed east to a big black carpet covered stone, the rich among you would have houses with castrated guy's as eunuch's and female slaves - if you are male - as sex toy's (no equal right's even in there heaven), you could not drink alcohol etc, oh and if you were on the other end of that unholy stick you would be the sex toy or the slave or the poor guy with his ball's cut off whom would also likely get periodically sexually abused.

Of course go ahead and tear down the house of Christianity inside whose wall's you mostly live why don't you, it's not like Islam is going to just sit back and let you then continue in a secular and atheist society is it, oh no they will then force you to convert to there cult and if you think otherwise you can kiss your head good bye.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
The adoption by Rome under Constantine of Christianity first required that the entrenched faith's and traditions' be smashed along with there culture - pagan Rome and that there already be enough Christian's to ensure the transition was a successful one - in other words an empire already turning christian (in fact Constantine adoption was probably after the empire was already almost christian of it's own accord or when Christianity had become one of the strongest belief's within it) so this was counter to the will of any group of men in positions of power wanting to use Christianity as there tool though such did come along later once it was established so to be frank that is not why it happened, it happened because people believed of there own accord in Jesus, in what they heard from others about him and even saw miracles done in his name and later enough of those that did survived the fall of Rome for it to continue as a major world faith to this day and in the faith of those of us whom believe into eternity.

So I can't agree with you on those point's.
The point's I do agree is that there are those that will, have and do whom abuse the faith of people to whip them up into frenzies and use them for war as we see in the extremists of Islam and which did happen under the Norman class of overlords of western Europe whom freely used the name of Christ to justify there petty wars on there neighbors in order to sack there city's and steal there lands, that however was NOT the church, it was men, men not God.

I didnt actually comment on the merits of any religion / historical basis of them.

I merely spoke to the motives of the Roman EMPIRE to wield a single deity religion.

Which bringing up Islam i another perfect example of human beings turning HARDCORE idolatry in the face of a single god creature, in their case even without actual imagery the same if not more profound results in practice.

In the show Game of Thrones, season one, King asks 'what stronger 5 or 1" Cersei says "I dont know 5". King holds up 5 fingers... then makes FIST: ONE. Worship being spread across 25 gods versus one concentrate POWER over the MIND. Like a Congress of 420 vs. a POTUS of 1. We see the lessons every day. Millions die per decade over these same principles. It doesnt inherently speak to religion, although religion sure does get brought into this fold a wee bit too often.

So why the Roman's did it seems pretty obvious to me. I argue for agnosticism so people dont divide and fight over this kind of stuff. Where to go from there is up to you.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Your point about the abuse of faith is actually correct, the faith itself in that argument is immaterial and any can be substituted there.

a reply to: FauxMulder

These are chin strokers for sure, It's surprising how little they left behind.

It's weird because these people were spoiled for choice when it comes to food, but methinks a plague of some kind could be involved as many of those vanished were of Europian/Eurasian in origin, and history shows how quickly and deadly the Spanish Flu was.

Just my two cents but that is one possibility.