Religion of peace update...

Freedom_for_sum, do you believe that islam tells its followers to murder all non-muslims?

if so, i want to see your proof, where in the quran does it state to kill anyone that is not a muslim?

i have an example. ISRAEL. they draft everyone, tell them to kill palestinians, whether or not they're combatants doesn't seem to mattter (i've got very gruesome firsthand accounts of the slaughter of children.)

also, the christian coalition, if they were given the chance they would become just as bad, if not worse, than the taliban. the rhetoric they use is suprisingly similar.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Freedom_for_sum, do you believe that islam tells its followers to murder all non-muslims?

if so, i want to see your proof, where in the quran does it state to kill anyone that is not a muslim?

Madness;

The Qur'an, in its entirety, is repleat with intolerant expressions about "disbelievers" "idolators" and "evil livers" which are terms used to define non-muslims, Christians, and Jews. It's clear about the destiny that awaits them. And for devout Muslims, or "fundamentalists" or "extremists" or "literalists", the message is clear regarding the inferior status of "non-Muslims."

The question then becomes: What are we to do with these "disbelievers?" There are approximately 100 verses, called Suras, that contain violent instruction on how to deal with them.

Obviously; I'm not going to post them all here. I suggest you take the time to study the Qur'an yourself. In addition, you should study the Hadith which decribes the day-to-day life of Muhammed and the things he said.

Here are some noteable Suras from the Qur'an that support my position:

98:6. Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.

8:12. When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying) I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

5:49. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil livers.

2:191. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

9:5. Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9:73. O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites ! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.

66:9. O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end.

5:80. Thou seest many of them making friends with those who disbelieve. surely ill for them is that which they themselves send on before them : that Allah will be wroth with them and in the doom they will abide.




[edit on 17-1-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]

Just to add to Freedom_for_sum's post, the below is an interesting report on an ongoing trial.

In a video of a sermon shown to jurors he called for the killing of Jews and said: “There is no drop of liquid as loved by Allah more than the the liquid of blood.”

In a private address to followers, Hamza, 47, said: “Fight and kill the infidels wherever you find them. Wherever you find them, the unbeliever is killed, take them and seize them. Any person who hinders Allah, this man must be eliminated because he is a menace. He should be killed.”

Source: www.thesun.co.uk...

This seems to equate to 9 : 5 posted above, and shows that if a muslim is a fundamentalist (believes in the koran as it is written), then they must kill all those that are not muslims. It is the radical muslim that is at peace with other religion's, and at peace with the world.

As for Israel, they are only trying to protect the land that is theirs. Please show me whose land the Gaza and West bank was prior to the war.

Originally posted by sacrifice
Just to add to Freedom_for_sum's post, the below is an interesting report on an ongoing trial.

In a video of a sermon shown to jurors he called for the killing of Jews and said: “There is no drop of liquid as loved by Allah more than the the liquid of blood.”

In a private address to followers, Hamza, 47, said: “Fight and kill the infidels wherever you find them. Wherever you find them, the unbeliever is killed, take them and seize them. Any person who hinders Allah, this man must be eliminated because he is a menace. He should be killed.”

Source: www.thesun.co.uk...

This seems to equate to 9 : 5 posted above, and shows that if a muslim is a fundamentalist (believes in the koran as it is written), then they must kill all those that are not muslims. It is the radical muslim that is at peace with other religion's, and at peace with the world.

As for Israel, they are only trying to protect the land that is theirs. Please show me whose land the Gaza and West bank was prior to the war.

good point, how far back will we go in giving people's land back?

honestly, will we have to revert to individual nomadic tribes?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
good point, how far back will we go in giving people's land back?

honestly, will we have to revert to individual nomadic tribes?

It's interesting that you bring up returning land in this context. Consider that the israelis returned the Gaza strip to the Palestinians. With this concession offered by the Iraelis, the palestinians have some choices. The logical choice would be to engage Israel in continued peace talks and cease attacking in the hopes that more concessions will be made. instead, the Palestinians interpret the return of Gaza as a weakness on the part of the Israelis and that it was the relentless attacks that compelled Israel to return Gaza. By their own admission, the Palestinians said they will continue to attack until all land is theirs and Israel is relocated elsewhere.

This very topic is discussed here

This is proof to me that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is about their differences in religion--not land. Palestinians CANNOT live side-by-side with Jews because they are taught, by Islamic ideology, to be intolerant of, and to hate Jews.

Hello again Freedom! I thought I'd chip in and give madnessinmysoul a feeling of the otherside, for the sake of objectivity, what?

BTW, what you posted are verses from the surahs not the surahs themselves (I say this because you asserted that these surahs support your position).

I do however, agree with you that anyone wishing to study islam should go to the truest source- the quran itself. It is odd that you don't follow your own advice however, and take (as seen from this thread) the majority of your information on Islam from such sites as jihadwatch.com.

I know that I explained all these to you before (in this very thread), but hey, I've got the time, so I can explain them again. I am, however, curious why you didn't even consider my (I believe very valid) explainations in the slightest, and continue upon exactly the same vein as before.

Anyhow, here goes:

98:6
Read this surah completely. Read it upto the point you quoted even. It's talking about those who reject the truth, after seeing it. This means they are basically hypocrites. According to the Quran, they are the worst of created beings.

8:12
Read this surah in completeness. Really. Heck, even just read the 12 lines upto 8:12. You'll see that these are instructions in case of war, not general instructions for everyday use.

Actually, it seems like I do not really have enough time at the moment. I'd suggest actually reading the verses mentioned. I'll come in later and add to this.

Originally posted by babloyi
Hello again Freedom! I thought I'd chip in and give madnessinmysoul a feeling of the otherside, for the sake of objectivity, what?

Hello Babloyi;

Sorry the lateness of my response; I been busy with a residence move.

Originally posted by babloyi
BTW, what you posted are verses from the surahs not the surahs themselves ...

You are correct. The verses are parts of its respective Surah.

Originally posted by babloyi
I do however, agree with you that anyone wishing to study islam should go to the truest source- the quran itself. It is odd that you don't follow your own advice however, and take (as seen from this thread) the majority of your information on Islam from such sites as jihadwatch.com.

I disagree. I get my info from many sources--including the Qur'an.

Originally posted by babloyi
I am, however, curious why you didn't even consider my (I believe very valid) explainations in the slightest, and continue upon exactly the same vein as before.

I have considered them Babloyi.

I have no personal stake in Islam. In fact, if it weren't for the attacks on my country and the coward-like murders of my fellow country-men/women, I would never have given Islam a second thought. But since the attacks, I've been curious about what drives these so called "extremists" and how they justify their actions as being the "will of Allah?" It turns out that most of what they do are literally stated in the Qur'an.

Now you've stated here, and in other threads, that this behavior is un-Islamic and that my interpretation of the verses are incorrect. However, I would like to point out that it is not my interpretations, but rather, it is the way these fundamentalists interpret the verses. I am simply reporting on what's happening throughout the Islamic world, and other places, and showing where it's justified (from their perception).

The notion that these are a "tiny minority of misunderstanders of Islam" is false and dangerous. In fact, babloyi, you should be particularily alarmed as it is your "moderate views" of Islam that are under attack by these fundamentalists.

As I stated before: I have no personal stake in Islam. But you, and those like you Babloyi, do. It seems to me that I am not the threat to your beliefs. While your efforts here are recognised, I believe you, and moderates like yourself, need to confront those in your own communities who espouse fundamentalist Islamic beliefs in order to save your religion. I know for a fact that Pakistan is a breeding ground for fundamentalist Islam. It's all around you Babloyi.

I am not your enemy; and attempting to correct my perceptions of Islam here on ATS is fruitless. You need to confront the perceptions of fundamentalists.

Originally posted by babloyi
Anyhow, here goes:

98:6
Read this surah completely. Read it upto the point you quoted even. It's talking about those who reject the truth, after seeing it. This means they are basically hypocrites. According to the Quran, they are the worst of created beings.

Yes--Those who reject "the truth". "The truth" or the "right way" according to the Qur'an is Islam. Therefore; those who reject Islam are the "worst of created beings". This is intolerance and is therefore a part of the reason fundamentalists reject the "moderates" views of Islam.

I can tell you that I've read the Qur'an and have heard your arguments (seen and heard) and yet I still reject Islam, its pillars, and all its tenets. Am I one of the "worst of created beings?"

Originally posted by babloyi
8:12
Read this surah in completeness. Really. Heck, even just read the 12 lines upto 8:12. You'll see that these are instructions in case of war, not general instructions for everyday use.

Yes. And most fundamentalists consider islam to be at war with the un-Islamic west.

Originally posted by babloyi
Actually, it seems like I do not really have enough time at the moment. I'd suggest actually reading the verses mentioned. I'll come in later and add to this.

I look forward to it.

Good to hear from you too. I too have had distractions that prevented me from getting back to this thread, so no problem.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
I disagree. I get my info from many sources--including the Qur'an.

But that's my point, see? If you are going to go on an all-out direct attack on Islam as a whole, the only valid source you can use is the Quran.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
But since the attacks, I've been curious about what drives these so called "extremists" and how they justify their actions as being the "will of Allah?" It turns out that most of what they do are literally stated in the Qur'an.

History is full of villians who used all at their disposal to further their needs. Most of them vehemently believed what they were doing was the good and right thing. What I'm showing, as opposed to you, is that what they are doing is not based in the Quran. You cannot simply pick up a translation of the Quran, open to some random line, and take that line to heart. You have to read it properly.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Now you've stated here, and in other threads, that this behavior is un-Islamic and that my interpretation of the verses are incorrect. However, I would like to point out that it is not my interpretations, but rather, it is the way these fundamentalists interpret the verses. I am simply reporting on what's happening throughout the Islamic world, and other places, and showing where it's justified (from their perception).

But they ARE your interpretations. While the extremists may believe what they want, that is their interpretation. However, there is very little room for "interpretation" in the Quran:
Some people have some bone to pick with another group of people. The Quran says that you can only fight to defend. OK, they believe they are being attacked. They want a bloody, genocidal war. The Quran says that you cannot "transgress the limits". They want to kill children, non-combatants, innocents etc. The Quran says this is absolutely not allowed.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
The notion that these are a "tiny minority of misunderstanders of Islam" is false and dangerous. In fact, babloyi, you should be particularily alarmed as it is your "moderate views" of Islam that are under attack by these fundamentalists.

I don't see it being false and dangerous. I also don't believe I have "moderate views" on anything. Islam itself is moderate. It is referred to as "The right path" and "The middle path". It dislikes that any should go to either extreme.

[

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
As I stated before: I have no personal stake in Islam. But you, and those like you Babloyi, do. It seems to me that I am not the threat to your beliefs. While your efforts here are recognised, I believe you, and moderates like yourself, need to confront those in your own communities who espouse fundamentalist Islamic beliefs in order to save your religion. I know for a fact that Pakistan is a breeding ground for fundamentalist Islam. It's all around you Babloyi.

Those like me? You mean muslims? Yes, I certainly have a personal stake in Islam. However, I am just here for education: to provide a (much lacked) view, and to see the other view. Islam will not suffer any more or less if me or you are lacking.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
I am not your enemy; and attempting to correct my perceptions of Islam here on ATS is fruitless. You need to confront the perceptions of fundamentalists.

I realise it is fruitless. I realised a long while back. You're not going to deviate one bit from your viewpoint, and debating on the internet in general is not the best way to prove a point. That is why I stopped posting in this thread. I just posted right now, as I said, as an alternative view for madness. Some of my own bias along with yours

Originally posted by babloyi
But that's my point, see? If you are going to go on an all-out direct attack on Islam as a whole, the only valid source you can use is the Quran.

It is not I who is "attacking" Islam. It is the "tiny minority of extremists" that's giving Islam a bad rap. It is they who are commiting attrocious acts and who are using the words of the Qur'an to justify their actions. I'm simply pointing out what they are doing.

Originally posted by babloyi
History is full of villians who used all at their disposal to further their needs.

So does this mean that because there have been "villians" in the past that fundamentalist Muslims today are justified in their actions? In this context, I personally don't care about what happened in the past. In my view, the knowledge that there were villians in the past does not offer any consolation to the fact that there are Muslims today who are decapitating people and blowing themselves up in a crowd of innocents. I care about what's happening today and what will happen tomorrow.

Originally posted by babloyi
You cannot simply pick up a translation of the Quran, open to some random line, and take that line to heart. You have to read it properly.

Don't tell me. What are you doing to convince them not to do this? I suggest a good place for you to start is here.

Originally posted by babloyi
The Quran says that you cannot "transgress the limits". They want to kill children, non-combatants, innocents etc. The Quran says this is absolutely not allowed.

So what are the limits? Where in the Qur'an are those limits stated? Where does it say you cannot kill "innocents"? What is the definition of "innocent" according to the Qur'an?

Originally posted by babloyi
I don't see it being false and dangerous. I also don't believe I have "moderate views" on anything. Islam itself is moderate. It is referred to as "The right path" and "The middle path". It dislikes that any should go to either extreme.

Just to be clear babloyi: You believe that Islamic fundamentalists are truly small in number and that they pose no threat to western, secular, societies?

Where in the Qur'an does it refer to Islam as "The middle path?" As far as I know, it only refers to it as the "right" path. There is no option for any other beliefs as those who believe otherwise--well "their abode is hell".

Originally posted by babloyi
Those like me? You mean muslims? Yes, I certainly have a personal stake in Islam. However, I am just here for education: to provide a (much lacked) view, and to see the other view. Islam will not suffer any more or less if me or you are lacking.

But Islam is suffering because Muslims, such as yourself, are too quiet on the subject.

Do you at least agree that Muslims need to look in the mirror to see what part Islam contributes to the problems today?

Originally posted by babloyi
I realise it is fruitless. I realised a long while back. You're not going to deviate one bit from your viewpoint, and debating on the internet in general is not the best way to prove a point. That is why I stopped posting in this thread. I just posted right now, as I said, as an alternative view for madness. Some of my own bias along with yours

When Muslims stop blowing themselves up in a crowd of innocent people; and when they stop video taping decapitations of their kidnapped victims; and when they accept that other beliefs, besides Islam, may be a pathway to heaven (if there is such a thing); and when they stop honor killings, and when they allow women to wear what they want to wear; and allow women to vote; and allow them out of the house without a male family member; and when a women's testimony in a court is equal to any other--including a man's; and when it's accepted that a woman who is raped is not dishonored, but a victim; and when it's acceptable to critisize Islam and speak ill of the Qur'an (blasphemy) without receiving death threats or being arrested; and when Muslims immigrate into a western country AND accept and live by that country's culture; When all these things plus a plethora more happen then I will consider this thread dead and stop posting here.

Maybe then, babloyi, you and I will be able to discuss other issues.

By the way Babloyi;

Please answer my previous question: Since I have denounced Islam and all its tenets, do you consider me, as it says in the Qur'an, "the worst of created beings?" If not, why not?

Hello again Freedom. Sorry for the delay.

I gave the point about villians from the past as an example. I am not justifying anything anyone did. No need to put words in my mouth.

At this point in time, I am talking about what YOU are saying and doing, not what extremists are saying and doing. YOU are most definitely attacking Islam, not as you claim, the extremists. You average post here goes with: "This that group did this recently, that is why Islam is bad. Here are some out of context mis-quotes to prove my point". Right now I am talking to YOU, and addressing what YOU are saying. It seems besides the point to tell me: "Why are you telling this to me? Tell it to some random terrorist site!". When I come in contact with an extremist who is belching hate at me, I will tell him my mind. Until then, anyone can know that I am fully against these extremists. Is it that because I am a muslim I must hold up a sign at all times saying "I am against extremists"? Of course these extremists pose a threat to everyone. However, that doesn't mean you should lump all Muslims in with them. In fact, judging from my geographical position, and my work here, I'd say I am better positioned, and doing more for combatting extremism than mailing random sites on the net that say they go for non-violent and political means to further their ideology.

People all over the world are protesting against terrorists all the time. Nobody is keeping "mysteriously silent". The Imam giving the speech at this years Pilgrimage prayers asked Muslims all over the world to renounce terrorism and distance themselves from those methods. The problem is that no one cares. Muslims protesting against terrorists. Where's the news?

Study the Quran for your answers. You claim to be well versed in Islamic theology. You should know the answers then. Here's a hint: None of what you said in the last paragraph is permitted in Islam.

As to your last question, it is not my place to judge you. I cannot see into your mind. Only you and God can do that. Whether you are the worst or the best, as you can see, you punishment/reward is the next life. Not this one.

[edit on 29-1-2006 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
I gave the point about villians from the past as an example. I am not justifying anything anyone did. No need to put words in my mouth.

Any argument that includes "villians from the past" is irrelevent to the context of this thread.

Originally posted by babloyi
At this point in time, I am talking about what YOU are saying and doing, not what extremists are saying and doing.

I'm not "doing" anything. And all I'm "saying" here is precisely what the fundamentalists around the world are doing and saying. Therefore it is they who are "attacking" Islam; not I.

Originally posted by babloyi
YOU are most definitely attacking Islam, not as you claim, the extremists.

Just so I understand you better: You don't believe "extremists" are "attacking" Islam?

Originally posted by babloyi
Of course these extremists pose a threat to everyone. However, that doesn't mean you should lump all Muslims in with them.

Where have I lumped "all Muslims" in with the extremists?

Originally posted by babloyi
In fact, judging from my geographical position, and my work here, I'd say I am better positioned, and doing more for combatting extremism than mailing random sites...

You're not combatting extremism here. You're combatting me who is simply writing here what the "extremists" are doing. Why are you so incapable of looking into your own faith and finding fault?

Originally posted by babloyi
People all over the world are protesting against terrorists all the time. Nobody is keeping "mysteriously silent". The Imam giving the speech at this years Pilgrimage prayers asked Muslims all over the world to renounce terrorism and distance themselves from those methods.

Really?!? You are welcome (in fact being begged) to post those links here supporting your claim. Meanwhile; I offer this link where Sheik Abdul-Aziz al-Sheik, Saudi Arabia's grand mufti proclaims during the Hajj:

"Oh, Muslim nation, there is a war against of our creed, against our culture under the pretext of fighting terrorism. We should stand firm and united in protecting our religion," he said, speaking at a mosque on the plain of Mount Arafat.

"Islam's enemies want to empty our religion from its contents and its meaning. But the soldiers of God will be victorious," said al-Sheik, the Saudi kingdom's top religious authority.

...instead of delivering an inspiring and loving sermon.

Originally posted by babloyi
None of what you said in the last paragraph is permitted in Islam.

Then why are those things so prevalent in the Islamic world?

In my lifetime, I have seen many instances of insults to Christianity and Judaism; But I have NEVER seen Christians or Jews commit kidnappings or murder out of anger over those insults. What is it about those Muslims that makes them so intolerant of criticism that they kill people who insult Islam or the prophet Mohammed? (vis-a-vis the Mohammed cartoons).

[edit on 3-2-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum

Originally posted by babloyi
YOU are most definitely attacking Islam, not as you claim, the extremists.

Just so I understand you better: You don't believe "extremists" are "attacking" Islam?

Hahaha...you're doing it again-

Originally posted by babloyi
No need to put words in my mouth.

Originally posted by babloyi
Of course these extremists pose a threat to everyone. However, that doesn't mean you should lump all Muslims in with them.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
You're not combatting extremism here. You're combatting me who is simply writing here what the "extremists" are doing. Why are you so incapable of looking into your own faith and finding fault?

Originally posted by babloyi
In fact, judging from my geographical position, and my work here, I'd say I am better positioned, and doing more for combatting extremism than mailing random sites...

I'm a teacher here. I teach in one of those non-existant schools (hey, there's no non-religious education in islamic countries!), in one of those violent, backward communities that hate women and foriegners . What do you do to combat extremism, Freedom? I mean, except fight people on a message board?

I'd ask you to show me the fault in my religion, but apparently you'd just post more drivel from jihadwatch. I haven't seen anything you've posted so far that sways me. EVERYTIME you post a verse, I go look it up in the Quran, and the answer is right there- You're quoting out of context.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Really?!? You are welcome (in fact being begged) to post those links here supporting your claim. Meanwhile; I offer this link

People actually believe FOX?????
Here is a link


EDIT: Very sorry if this post has a rude tone, Freedom. Chatting with you really leaves me exhausted

[edit on 3-2-2006 by babloyi]

has anyone ever considered that a good 80% of the total islamic population (of about 1.7 billion) live in the most impoverished areas of the world?

these areas are bristling with people willing to use anything, even a religion, to give themselves power, control, and to further their own personal agenda.

it's exactly like what happened to europe in the dark ages! christianity became so horribly perverted by those in control so they could retain control.

do you see how it's NOT the religion, it's the economic factors?

Originally posted by babloyi
Hahaha...you're doing it again-

Doing what again? You stated that it is I who is attacking Islam; not the extremists. To understand your position better, I am attempting to clarify whether or not you believe the "extremists" are attacking Islam.

Originally posted by babloyi
What do you do to combat extremism, Freedom? I mean, except fight people on a message board?

Thank you for asking babloyi. I am a pilot in the military. My job is to refuel aircraft in flight. While the aircraft I fly don't carry weapons, I give fuel to aircraft that do. I am an active combattant in the war on terror.

Originally posted by babloyi
I'd ask you to show me the fault in my religion, but apparently you'd just post more drivel from jihadwatch.

Actually, I can post drivel from the Qur'an. The most notable fault with the text in the Qur'an is that it is repleat with expressions of intolerance regarding everything that's not Islamic (idolators, kafirs, Christians, Jews, dis-believers, evil livers, etc) and what their destiny is (Their abode is hell; a hapless existence; And other some such similar language). In the texts describing warfare, the Qur'an is explicit in its instructions to Muslims on how to deal with these unIslamic people. The vast majority of Arab Muslims believe they are at war with the west; therefore, the "extremists" are , in their view, justified in their actions.

Originally posted by babloyi
I haven't seen anything you've posted so far that sways me. EVERYTIME you post a verse, I go look it up in the Quran, and the answer is right there- You're quoting out of context.

The "extremists" are quoting out of context.

Originally posted by babloyi
People actually believe FOX?????

Here is a link

Your link is essentially the same as the one I provided. I'd like to make a couple notable quotes from your link:

and Saudi Arabia's top cleric called for Islamic unity in the face of the West's war on Islam.

Affirming their perception that Islam is at war with the West. I wonder what he means by the "West"?

He urged Muslims to unite, return to the essence of Islam and shun terrorism as well as Western ideas aimed at destroying their religion under the guise of women's and human rights.

Babloyi; do you believe the West wants to destroy your religion? If so, how do you perceive the West is doing it? I wonder how he defines terrorism and in what context it should be "shunned".

"Islam is being unjustly targeted through an effort to attribute the philosophy of terror to this religion."

Virtually every act of global terroism is caused by people proclaiming themselves as Muslims and reading verses from the Qur'an to justify their actions. What else is the world supposed to think?

"Oh, Muslim nation, there is a war against our creed, against our culture under the pretext of fighting terrorism. We should stand firm and united in protecting our religion," he said. "Islam's enemies want to empty our religion from its contents and its meaning," said Sheikh Abdul Aziz. "But the soldiers of God will be victorious," he said.

So, from this guy's perception, it's the West, in its war against terrorism, who is the threat to Islam--not the "extremists". He clearly doesn't veiw the "extremists" as his enemy; he views those fighting the "extremists" (the West) as his enemy and the enemy of Islam. I wonder why that is?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
do you see how it's NOT the religion, it's the economic factors?

Usama bin Laden came from one of the wealthiest families in Saudi Arabia. None of the hijackers from 911 came from impoverished families. In fact, there is no terrorist that I am aware of that has ever been "impoverished". Just the opposite; most have plentiful resources that enable them to travel covertly and carry out their missions of destruction.

The economy of individuals plays NO role in global terrorism.

Babloyi;

Maybe you, or any Muslim here for that matter, can explain why it is that when Islamic "extremists" decapitate kidnapped victims and blow themselves up in public places taking innocent lives, including children, the silence on the part of the Muslim world is deafening; so much so I can hear crickets in the background. But when the Prophet Mohammed is satirized in cartoons, the Muslim world suddenly rises up in a deafening roar out of anger to protest and to destroy property. Where is the outrage that these extremists are hijacking Islam by misinterpreting its teachings? Where is the puplic display of anger and destruction that this minority of misunderstanders of Islam cause destruction and murder in the name of Islam?!?

I'm beginning to believe that Muslims in general want these extremists to succeed in the hopes that Islam will become the dominant religion in the world. The actions on the part of Muslims world wide seem to be the best spokesmen on Muslims true desires and intentions.

[edit on 6-2-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]

I am listening to Dennis Prager and he offered what I think is a great fundamental reason for the differences between Islamic and western culture. He explained that western culture, from a moral standpoint, is based on right and wrong. In the Islamic world, morality is based on honor and shame. This, he explained, is the reason for "honor killings" whereby a member of a family can be killed if it's perceived that person dishonored the family. This also, he explained, is the reason for the riots---Islam, and specifically Muhammad, has been dishonored by the cartoons.

For those who believe that Islam does not pose a threat within the US borders: Take a few moments to read "Jihad in small town America"; (Parts 1-4) by Laura Mansfield, an investigative jounalist.

I found part 4 to be particularily troubling as little children are being taught to hate anything that's not Islamic. This is happening here in America and I wonder when the Government is going to wake up and charge these "imams" and "teachers" with child abuse and endangerment. Clearly, this is abusive.