Religion of peace update...

All these verses of the Quran and even the Bible can often be interpreted any way the reader wants - either for using violence or against. So, in a way, they are just words.

More important is how the followers of those words are acting. Unfortunately, muslims have a large enough group of their members for the whole world to notice, that are carrying out savage and cowardly acts such as killing children to make their point.

All I can say is look around. Who is targeting innocents on such a regular and organized basis? Only your "peaceful" muslims.

Originally posted by babloyi
Freedom, you are grasping at straws now.

Nope. I'm trying to steer this thread to a practical application of Islam in today's times based on current events around the world. But you want to continue debating the Qur'an; so here we go:

Originally posted by babloyi
The 1st one(2:83-84) was originally a covenant to the Children of Israel. That automatically shows that it is not only for muslims. It even mentions that there are a few who did not turn back (from the path of God).

And what of the "covenant": This passage describes what was expected:

5:12. Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve chieftains: and Allah said: Lo! I am with you. If ye establish worship and pay the poor due, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into gardens underneath which rivers flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this will go astray from a plain road.

This "covenenant" is the expectation that the Children of Israel will submit to Islam

Originally posted by babloyi
The 2nd (16:90) tells what God advocates. It does not say "Only to other muslims" anywhere in the passage.

16:89. And (bethink you of) the day when We raise in every nation a witness against them of their own folk, and We bring thee (Muhammad) as a witness against these. And We reveal the Scripture unto thee as an exposition of all things, and a guidance and a mercy and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah).

16:90. Lo! Allah enjoineth justice and kindness, and giving to kinsfolk, and forbiddeth lewdness and abomination and wickedness. He exhorteth you in order that ye may take heed.

Muslims are those who have surrendered to Allah. "Kinsfolk" are other Muslims.

Originally posted by babloyi
The 3rd one (16:125) is very obviously referring to muslim behaviour towards non-muslims. Who else but non-muslims can be invited to "The Way of God"?

Sure; taking 16:125 by itself I might agree with you:

16:125. Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and reason with them in the better way. Lo! thy Lord is best aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is Best Aware of those who go aright.

...but then there's 16:126 where the option of punishment exists--even though it may be better to be "patient":

16:126. If ye punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith ye were afflicted. But if ye endure patiently, verily it is better for the patient.

Originally posted by babloyi
You ask for real world events. The very existence of such groups of Coptic Christians, Jewish Egyptians, Christians in Ethopia, Nigeria, etc, all of who have have lived peacefully for over a 1000 years in areas that have been ruled by muslims for over a 1000 years. Don't you think that if Islam advocated their deaths, they would have ceased to exist by now? They all are still around, still in those exact places their families have been for generations.

Yes, they're still "around" living the wonderful existence of dhimmitude; where-in they are not alowed to pray or celebrate their religion in the public view; where they cannot build places of worship that exceed in height above any mosques nearby; where their private and quiet worship is disrupted by the wailing of the Islamic 5 prayers piped over loud speakers; etc.

And this brings me to another example of Islamic tolerance:

One Killed and Six Injured as Assailants Attack During Easter Morning Service in Pakistan

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum:
5:12....and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan,

A loan? What's Allah buying? And...how much money does he need?

Excepts from the article linked:

Sunday's Easter morning service of the Victory Church International (also known as the New Apostolic Church) in the village of Khambay near Lahore, Pakistan was disrupted as four armed assailants opened fire on the church property, murdering one Christian worshipper and injuring six others.

This incident comes after a weekend of threats and intimidations by the Dogar family against the congregation. The 150-member church was forced to cancel their Good Friday and Saturday night services when the family threatened to kill anyone who came to the church. The Dogar family is apparently seeking to take possession of the land that New Apostolic Church and its graveyard has been located on for the last century.

I've drawn two conclussions from the above -
1.) It was an indescriminate killing. Therefore we can rule out personal vendettas, debts, relationships, and jealousy.
2.) Since the church was there for a hundred years, it doesn't seem caused by a claim of land rights.

If it was about land, wouldn't the government or judical system be the route to take? I'm not sure how Pakistan works in that regard.

Hey Freedom, I think you may have something here. I can see how this church may have been considered an 'invasion' of the nation, thus actionable by quotes in the Quran. What do you think Babloyi?

Freedom, I haven't seen what I'd consider justification of an attack on other nations according to the book. Earlier, it seemed you were putting together an argument that Islam is attempting to assimilate first, then by Quran have the right to purge internally. I might be reading you wrong, is this what you're saying?

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
And what of the "covenant": This passage describes what was expected:

5:12. Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve chieftains: and Allah said: Lo! I am with you. If ye establish worship and pay the poor due, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into gardens underneath which rivers flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this will go astray from a plain road.

This "covenenant" is the expectation that the Children of Israel will submit to Islam

According to Islam, it is God who sent all these messengers, with the same message (i.e. Islam), so of course the Children of Israel would be expected to follow God's messengers. But that is beside the point. Most of the Children of Israel broke the covenant, so nothing much was (or is) expected of them.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
16:89. And (bethink you of) the day when We raise in every nation a witness against them of their own folk, and We bring thee (Muhammad) as a witness against these. And We reveal the Scripture unto thee as an exposition of all things, and a guidance and a mercy and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah).

16:90. Lo! Allah enjoineth justice and kindness, and giving to kinsfolk, and forbiddeth lewdness and abomination and wickedness. He exhorteth you in order that ye may take heed.

Muslims are those who have surrendered to Allah. "Kinsfolk" are other Muslims.

16:89 is talking about the Day of judgement. 16:90 is talking about what God advocates so as for someone to get into heaven. I don't see how 16:89 makes it so that 16:90 is talking about muslim behaviour to muslims only. BTW, kinsfolk means just that. Relatives. A more contemporary translation would be "and regarding to kinsfolk". You can't turn away, break off relations or disinherit relatives. The kinsfolk only applies to the last part.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Sure; taking 16:125 by itself I might agree with you:
16:125. Call unto the way of thy Lord with wisdom and fair exhortation, and reason with them in the better way. Lo! thy Lord is best aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is Best Aware of those who go aright.

...but then there's 16:126 where the option of punishment exists--even though it may be better to be "patient":

16:126. If ye punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith ye were afflicted. But if ye endure patiently, verily it is better for the patient.

How does 16:126 negate what I said (and what is said in 16:125) about speaking "with wisdom and beautiful preaching.."? 16:126 is talking about if someone was wronged by another person. You can ask for retribution, but it is better you be patient.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Yes, they're still "around" living the wonderful existence of dhimmitude; where-in they are not alowed to pray or celebrate their religion in the public view; where they cannot build places of worship that exceed in height above any mosques nearby; where their private and quiet worship is disrupted by the wailing of the Islamic 5 prayers piped over loud speakers; etc.

I don't know where you get your ideas from. Strange ideas.. Not allowed to pray or celebrate in public? I hate to sound pretentious, but have you EVER BEEN to EGYPT? I have. I can tell you first hand that the Coptic Christians are one of the most public, prominent groups. They can pray and celebrate however they want. Not build churches taller than mosques? WHAAAT? Never heard of anything so ridiculous in my life. Here in Pakistan too, I hear church bells every Sunday (more often recently). The churches are taller than alot of mosques. It is all very well to use fancy words like "dhimmitude", but when they can't be backed up by fact, they are meaningless. BTW, where exactly did you get this word from? I'd be interested to know. I can be pretty certain that it is not from any Quranic verse, or reliable Hadith.
I might agree with you about the wailing over loudspeakers though. Some voices are just not meant to be used for singing . However, I have also heard very beautiful calls to prayer. Nice stuff to hear.

Hey Saint. The kindly loan being talked about is not money, it is your faith. It will be repayed once you are dead.
The Church wasn't an invasion of anything. The terrorists who did this had no sanction for their act. The Quran specifically mentions not to disturb ANY place of worship.

[edit on 4-4-2005 by babloyi]

[edit on 5-4-2005 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
Hey Saint. The kindly loan being talked about is not money, it is your faith. It will be repayed once you are dead.

*reads the passage over a few times* Oooh, maybe it's easier understood with more text surrouding it? So it's more of an investment than a loan. You don't actually get your faith back by giving it away, but rather greater returns by having it.

Originally posted by babloyi
The Church wasn't an invasion of anything. The terrorists who did this had no sanction for their act. The Quran specifically mentions not to disturb ANY place of worship.

quote please?


[edit on 5-4-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
*reads the passage over a few times* Oooh, maybe it's easier understood with more text surrouding it? So it's more of an investment than a loan. You don't actually get your faith back by giving it away, but rather greater returns by having it.

Hehehe...I don't think arabic commerce at the time was advanced enough to differentiate between all these various terms. I checked some other translations, it has also been translated as a "gift".

Originally posted by saint4God
quote please?

Here you go:

22:40
(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah.. Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).

Obviously God does not want desecration in ANY place of worship.

[edit on 5-4-2005 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
Hehehe...I don't think arabic commerce at the time was advanced enough to differentiate between all these various terms. I checked some other translations, it has also been translated as a "gift".

Fair enough. If another word was "gift" I think it would make a lot more sense. It could be just the time I'm living in though.

Originally posted by babloyi
Here you go:

22:40
(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah.. Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).

Obviously God does not want desecration in ANY place of worship.

Thanks! Having a difficult time discerning the meaning here though. I'll give it some more reading and thinking. Any commentary is certainly welcomed as well.

An interesting point of note, you're a friend of mine, knowing full well I go to a church that's not Islamic. So, if you were my neighbor, I would not expect you to gun me down in or out of church. Just my impression. Accurate assessment?

What do you think was the motivation for the church gunnings?

[edit on 5-4-2005 by saint4God]

Saint, 5:12 is talking about those that have been oppressed. One of those categories include those who have been driven from their home because they said "Our Lord is God". It then says that if God did not use one group of people to check the other, they would have destroyed many places where God is worshipped. It then says that God will help those who aid His cause (stop this desecration).

The motivation for the gunnings? It looks like those people wanted the land. Nothing Islamic about what they did. I assure you, that is not the norm. I think that was the one single unfortunate case in the entire country.

Would I gun you down? unlikley. Hahahahhahaha... there's a weird thought. Celebrate easter all you want. Come here to do it too. Some beautiful (tall ) churches here. I'm all for holidays. I even got a wooden egg as a gift

[edit on 5-4-2005 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
Saint, 5:12 is talking about those that have been oppressed. One of those categories include those who have been driven from their home because they said "Our Lord is God". It then says that if God did not use one group of people to check the other, they would have destroyed many places where God is worshipped. It then says that God will help those who aid His cause (stop this desecration).

Okay, I think I see. So basically it says God allows it, so peeps have no right to tear them down. Is that how it goes?

Originally posted by babloyi
The motivation for the gunnings? It looks like those people wanted the land. Nothing Islamic about what they did. I assure you, that is not the norm. I think that was the one single unfortunate case in the entire country.

It seemed to have that slant at the end of the article but then says that the church has the land for a century. Can the dispute be that age-old or is this family goin' gangsta trying to claim rights to their hood?

Originally posted by babloyi
Would I gun you down? unlikley. Hahahahhahaha... there's a weird thought. Celebrate easter all you want.

Unlikely, as in not-likely but possible?
Why is that weird?

Originally posted by babloyi
Celebrate easter all you want.

Just not at that church right? I never understood why would a Christian celebrate Ishtar? (I ask my Christian friends the same question). I've even seen some churches having Ishtar egg hunts in their churchyards . Resurrection Sunday maybe...

Originally posted by babloyi
Come here to do it too.

Careful, I may just do that. I've been beginning to want to see the world. Do you have an extra couch?

Originally posted by babloyi
Some beautiful (tall

) churches here. I'm all for holidays. I even got a wooden egg as a gift

I wouldn't mind taking in a few sights while there. As far as holidays go, as long as they're holydays then I celebrate a few.

[edit on 5-4-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Okay, I think I see. So basically it says God allows it, so peeps have no right to tear them down. Is that how it goes?

It's more like "They are worshipping God, so umm...peeps have no right to tear them down."

Originally posted by saint4God
It seemed to have that slant at the end of the article but then says that the church has the land for a century. Can the dispute be that age-old or is this family goin' gangsta trying to claim rights to their hood?

It appears they are "goin' gangsta". This was out in a village, far from the protection of modern civilisation. Perhaps they thought they could get away with it.

Originally posted by saint4God
Unlikely, as in not-likely but possible?

Why is that weird?

Can't really imagine myself with a gun... I am for all practical purposes, a wuss.

Originally posted by saint4God
Just not at that church right?

I never understood why would a Christian celebrate Ishtar? (I ask my Christian friends the same question). I've even seen some churches having Ishtar egg hunts in their churchyards

. Resurrection Sunday maybe...

Nono, church too, I invited you, remember. You asking ME why the whole egg thing is celebrated? I really wouldn't know...for me it is just another reason for holiday. And you can't really argue about wooden eggs. They make GREAT presents.

Originally posted by babloyi
It's more like "They are worshipping God, so umm...peeps have no right to tear them down."

Gotcha. So according to the Quran, Jews, Christians and such who use the name God are worshipping the same God?

Originally posted by babloyi
It appears they are "goin' gangsta". This was out in a village, far from the protection of modern civilisation. Perhaps they thought they could get away with it.

Gotcha. I retract my earlier statement then. I got to thinking also, is Pakistan a theocracy? If so, then opening a Christian Church there would've been taboo or halted in the first place, yes?

Originally posted by babloyi
Can't really imagine myself with a gun... I am for all practical purposes, a wuss.

Wusses of the world unite to peace!

Originally posted by babloyi
Nono, church too, I invited you, remember.

I meant the Victory Church to celebrate Resurrection Sunday. I doubt it'll be on the tour pamphlet anytime soon. But much appreciated being invited to yours. I'd have to work out a deal like I do for my friends around here. I'll go to yours if you'll go to mine

Originally posted by babloyi
You asking ME why the whole egg thing is celebrated? I really wouldn't know...for me it is just another reason for holiday. And you can't really argue about wooden eggs. They make GREAT presents.

LOL . Perhaps...

Originally posted by saint4God
Gotcha. So according to the Quran, Jews, Christians and such who use the name God are worshipping the same God?

Yup, and not just Jews and Christians:

10:47
To every people (was sent) an apostle: when their apostle comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.

Muslims believe that most ancient religions were originally from God. Although they may have been changed or distorted later on. Islam is not meant to be a new separate religion, but a continuation of what came before. The Quran, as the last revealation is complete so that people do not have to go searching in hundreds of different holy books to find God's message.

Gotcha. I retract my earlier statement then. I got to thinking also, is Pakistan a theocracy? If so, then opening a Christian Church there would've been taboo or halted in the first place, yes?

Nope, Pakistan is not a theocracy. A theocracy needs a central religious figure who is supposed to be "divinely inspired". There is no such person living.

Originally posted by saint4God
I meant the Victory Church to celebrate Resurrection Sunday. I doubt it'll be on the tour pamphlet anytime soon. But much appreciated being invited to yours. I'd have to work out a deal like I do for my friends around here. I'll go to yours if you'll go to mine

Heheheh...I was actually inviting you to come see the churches here, not specifically my church (or mosque as I call it), though you are welcome to my mosque too. I have been to many churches though, so my part of the deal may already be clinched.

Originally posted by babloyi
Muslims believe that most ancient religions were originally from God. Although they may have been changed or distorted later on. Islam is not meant to be a new separate religion, but a continuation of what came before.

Thanks for clarifying, I can see how that works since Christians believe the New Testament is the reformation of Judiasm. Sounds like Islam bases that it is a reformation of all religions.

Originally posted by babloyi
The Quran, as the last revealation is complete so that people do not have to go searching in hundreds of different holy books to find God's message.

Here's the kind of ironic part of it. The Quran claims to be the last revelation and the and so does the Bible, ending with Revelation 22:18 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." So you can probably see what kind of predicament that leaves a Christian when someone comes out with a new book. I know the counter-claim is the Bible is flawed and this is one of them, but someone in my position who has found the Bible proven to be right many many times would have a difficult time accepting this as a flaw.

Originally posted by babloyi
Nope, Pakistan is not a theocracy. A theocracy needs a central religious figure who is supposed to be "divinely inspired". There is no such person living.

Gotcha. So the country seems to not have a problem with a Christian Church in their country...nor people living there as you can testify...but gangstas do.

Originally posted by babloyi
Heheheh...I was actually inviting you to come see the churches here, not specifically my church (or mosque as I call it), though you are welcome to my mosque too. I have been to many churches though, so my part of the deal may already be clinched.

Whoa, hold up church/mosque cowboy, you gotta stop by mine too. The band is phenomenal! Until recently, I wouldn't use the words "Christian" and "music" in the same sentence, but these peeps seem to have it right! Very alternativey sounding, good bass, etc. The service is pretty thought provoking too. Candidly I have a short attention span so if it isn't interesting, I tend to doze off on a Sunday morning. Maybe that's why everyone says it's 'mind-control', because the dull churches seem to lull people off into a hypnotic alpha state .

Would I have to dress up over there? I'd have to pick up so 'digs' before we go if so. I like the 'come as you are' type atmosphere, but no problems dressing up now and then.

[edit on 6-4-2005 by saint4God]

Babloyi; help me understand your position by answering this hypothetical:

Let's say I'm Christian and I'm invited to your mosque to worship. Can I wear a cross necklace and bring my bible to read scripture? How about the Torah and Star of David as a Jew? I mean, it's all ONE God; Right?

*looks down, noticing the cross around neck and Bible on the desk*

Originally posted by saint4God
Here's the kind of ironic part of it. The Quran claims to be the last revelation and the and so does the Bible, ending with Revelation 22:18 "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." So you can probably see what kind of predicament that leaves a Christian when someone comes out with a new book. I know the counter-claim is the Bible is flawed and this is one of them, but someone in my position who has found the Bible proven to be right many many times would have a difficult time accepting this as a flaw.

But the Quran does not claim to be an extention of the Bible, it is meant to be a completely separate book. I know...yeah, yeah....annoying counter-claim....Bible has been distorted, but that is what muslims believe.

You don't need to dress up to go to a mosque...just as long as the essentials are covered

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Babloyi; help me understand your position by answering this hypothetical:

Let's say I'm Christian and I'm invited to your mosque to worship. Can I wear a cross necklace and bring my bible to read scripture? How about the Torah and Star of David as a Jew? I mean, it's all ONE God; Right?

Heheheh...you said somewhere here that you are an atheist. Whatever....technicalities aside, why would you bring a bible to a mosque? Would you wish to use it to quote scripture that you would use to ask the imam questions? There is nothing wrong with that.
However, do you wish to storm into the mosque and start quoting the Bible in attempts to convert someone? I don't think anyone will take kindly to that. Violence is not permitted in the mosque, so you would most probably be turned out.

Just for my information, but do jews actually WEAR the star of David as jewellery?

Originally posted by babloyi
But the Quran does not claim to be an extention of the Bible, it is meant to be a completely separate book. I know...yeah, yeah....annoying counter-claim....Bible has been distorted, but that is what muslims believe.

Not annoying, but it seems we both believe both our books have in writting there is no other book... so it's even in that regard. It seems then it's a matter of belief.

Originally posted by babloyi
You don't need to dress up to go to a mosque...just as long as the essentials are covered

But of course! People should be going for God, not to gawk at each other *nods*.

Originally posted by babloyi
Whatever....technicalities aside, why would you bring a bible to a mosque?

Fair question, easy answer. I bring it with me everywhere because peeps go, "where does your Bible say that?" in a discussion, as if I'm making it up. Being that I don't have it memorized cover to cover I have to bend the spine a bit.

Originally posted by babloyi
Would you wish to use it to quote scripture that you would use to ask the imam questions? There is nothing wrong with that.

You seem to be doing a pretty good job answering so I'm not sure how necessary that would be. I don't like asking questions when the answers are already in the book.

Originally posted by babloyi
However, do you wish to storm into the mosque and start quoting the Bible in attempts to convert someone? I don't think anyone will take kindly to that.

So the sentiment is world-wide then.

Originally posted by babloyi
Violence is not permitted in the mosque, so you would most probably be turned out.

You're not helping Freedom's argument that Islam is violent.

Originally posted by babloyi
Just for my information, but do jews actually WEAR the star of David as jewellery?

*shrugs* apparently...


Off topic: Pakastani Cuisine
I have a question about chicken. How is halal different? And can you recommend any spicy meat dishes and/or recipes?

Originally posted by babloyi
Heheheh...you said somewhere here that you are an atheist.

Actually, I'm agnostic

Originally posted by babloyi
Would you wish to use it to quote scripture that you would use to ask the imam questions? There is nothing wrong with that.
However, do you wish to storm into the mosque and start quoting the Bible in attempts to convert someone? I don't think anyone will take kindly to that. Violence is not permitted in the mosque, so you would most probably be turned out.

Somehow, even if I just went there to pray, I think I would be "turned out"--or maybe even turned inside out (outside the mosque, of course). I don't necessarily focus on the "violence" of Islam, but rather, its intolerant nature because I beleive that to be one of the root problems of Islam that eventually leads to vilolence.

Based on what I've read in the Qur'an there is only ONE God and [his] name is Allah; and the only correct way to worship allah is through Islam. Anyone one else is a kuffar, idolator, non-believer etc, etc, etc.

As far as the Egyptian Copst are concerned: They feel they are subjugated. Maybe they're just making it up; or maybe there's something to it.

The word "dhimmitude" as an historical concept, was coined by Bat Ye'or (an Egyptian-born author/speaker) in 1983 to describe the legal and social conditions of Jews and Christians subjected to Islamic rule. The word "dhimmitude" comes from dhimmi, an Arabic word meaning "protected". Dhimmi was the name applied by the Arab-Muslim conquerors to indigenous non-Muslim populations who surrendered by a treaty (dhimma) to Muslim domination.

Dhimmitude encompasses the relationship of Muslims and non-Muslims at the theological, social, political and economical levels. It also incorporates the relationship between the numerous ethno-religious dhimmi groups and the type of mentality that they have developed out of their particular historical condition which lasted for centuries, even in some Muslim countries, till today.

So why is it I have these feelings about Islam, in general? Babloyi, in an earlier post you said that the violence commited at the Easter Services was the "...one single unfortunate case in the entire country." But here's a prequel:

A mob attacked the Ahmadi place of worship

Excerpts:

"There has been condemnation by human-rights activists of the killing of 10 members of the minority Ahmadi community in Pakistan. "

"Ahmadis were declared non-Muslims on the grounds that they believe Mohammed may not be the last Prophet, and many have been charged with religious offences and blasphemy since then."

If Islam is the peaceful, benign, benevolent, and tolerant institution you say it is why then are the problems I've highlighted throughout this thread (as well as thousands others I don't have the time to include here) so widespread?

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by babloyi
Violence is not permitted in the mosque, so you would most probably be turned out.

You're not helping Freedom's argument that Islam is violent.

Hehehe...I meant it is like that to the extreme. You are not allowed to even kill insects in the mosque.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Somehow, even if I just went there to pray, I think I would be "turned out"--or maybe even turned inside out (outside the mosque, of course). I don't necessarily focus on the "violence" of Islam, but rather, its intolerant nature because I beleive that to be one of the root problems of Islam that eventually leads to vilolence.

Not at all. It has happened numerous times at the mosque. Someone brings a non-muslim, explains that they wish to learn about islam, and wanted to attend the prayers. No one is going to turn you out because of a piece of jewellery, and like I said, you want to bring the bible to use to ask questions, no one will find a problem with that either.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Based on what I've read in the Qur'an there is only ONE God and [his] name is Allah; and the only correct way to worship allah is through Islam. Anyone one else is a kuffar, idolator, non-believer etc, etc, etc.

God's name isn't Allah, that it is just one of the arabic name. It means "The God". Yeah, the correct way to worship Allah (according to Islam) would be through Islam. However, the terms kufr, idolator, non-believer, are all very different. A better word for kufr is "disbeliever" - someone who actively spreads hatred about Islam. An idolator is someone who worships idols. A non-believer is someone who does not believe in God (isn't muslim, christian, jewish, etc). Now all of these would be non-muslims.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Babloyi, in an earlier post you said that the violence commited at the Easter Services was the "...one single unfortunate case in the entire country." But here's a prequel:

A mob attacked the Ahmadi place of worship

Excerpts:

"There has been condemnation by human-rights activists of the killing of 10 members of the minority Ahmadi community in Pakistan. "

"Ahmadis were declared non-Muslims on the grounds that they believe Mohammed may not be the last Prophet, and many have been charged with religious offences and blasphemy since then."

I was talking about it being the single case of an attack on christians celebrating easter. Yeah, Ahmadi's are not considered muslims, but that doesn't take away any of their rights. They shouldn't be attacked (at least not according to Islam):

2:62
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
If Islam is the peaceful, benign, benevolent, and tolerant institution you say it is why then are the problems I've highlighted throughout this thread (as well as thousands others I don't have the time to include here) so widespread?

But that is the point! It is not widespread at all. For every single copt who feels "subjugated", there are thousands who are perfectly happy. For every 1 person who believes "Death to the unbelievers!", there are thousands upon thousands who don't.

Originally posted by saint4God
Off topic: Pakastani Cuisine
I have a question about chicken. How is halal different? And can you recommend any spicy meat dishes and/or recipes?

Halal just means that the animal has been slaughtered in accordance to Islam. Hehehe...almost all Pakistani Cuisine is spicy. I really had a rough time when I came here newly. It was nothing like the "Desi" food I had eaten before in resteraunts. I am used to it now, though. I even find some food to taste good. Can't really recommend any recipes, as I have no idea how to cook the stuff.

[edit on 7-4-2005 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
Hehehe...I meant it is like that to the extreme. You are not allowed to even kill insects in the mosque.

This would be extreme for me. I'd be hard pressed to pet the mosquito sucking on my arm. Maybe I'm seen as violent then?

What's the general sentiment over there about India?

[edit on 7-4-2005 by saint4God]