The God of Judgment Versus the God of Unconditional Love

originally posted by: ketsuko
The other thing to consider is this:
Think of the very worst in history, the most unrepentant, the ones who visited immeasurable pain and suffering on those around them without pity or remorse or mercy ...
The God of Unconditional Love you imagine would bring them home too.

Yes, the God of unconditional love would allow everyone through the gates of Heaven to experience eternally heavenly bliss. What does "bring them home too" mean? I think when you are in heaven you might be too busy with heavenly bliss to think about what being home means.

I think what you are saying is it is not fair to the people who have been made to suffer at someone else's expense for them not to be punished with torture and pain for all eternity. If you believe eye-for-eye, then how is eternally suffering equal to anything that a mortal person can do in one's lifetime? That is not eye-for-eye.

People who have been made to suffer may be full of rage and hate and are seeking justice and revenge. I think people who are full of rage and hate need to work on resolving their rage and hate.

If Hitler on his death bed says the magic words of taking Jesus Christ has his Lord and savior does it really matter? I would say no. People Hitler has sinned against are already hurt. When you sin against someone, the only way to get absolution for your sins is by getting forgiveness from the person you have sinned against. After you die, it's too late. And during your life saying magic words does not matter either. You have to get forgiveness for your sins from the people you have sinned against. Just saying words is way too easy. How is just saying the magic Jesus words that much different than having faith in a God of unconditional love?

The other problem with eternal damnation is that it is cruel and unusual punishment according to our secular laws. Even murderers are not sentence to a life of torture and suffering. Having billions of people being tortured in Hell for all eternity is not what I would consider what a God of love would allow to happen.

I think morality is important. I treat everyone who comes into my home like they are the most sacred object on Earth. Myself and I'm sure a lot of other people behave morally and good not because of the threat of eternal damnation or God's judgment.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Most people have enough trouble reconciling the God of Judgment with that when they learn that He forgives. Your God doesn't even need to forgive. He never judged to begin with.

Why is God judging other people so important to you is the more interesting question. As I said, my faith is in a God of unconditional love. There is nothing I am going to do in my life that would prevent me from being saved. This is because my God of unconditional love loves me without any conditions. Sin is a condition. Now you may think that in knowing this good news that I will be saved no matter what that I would stop being moral person. I think it is just the opposite. People who believe in a God of Judgment are often acting immorally because they are obsessed with sin. And people who believe or have faith in a God of unconditional love just live their lives with respect for other people.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: dfnj2015

Well if God wants nothing from us, then he doesn't love us either. There is no reason to believe He takes any interest in us at all, including giving us neverending bliss after we die.

Why would He?

I think God is very much interesting in us. We are our omnipotent God's way of experiencing the thrill of having limitations by sharing in our experiences of joy, success, frustration, and pain. How can our God be omnipotent if He doesn't know what it means to be a human being with limitations?

Since our God is omnipotent, giving us never-ending eternal bliss after we die is no skin off God's back and is more an act of love. It's not like it matters how many people go to Heaven or Hell to God. It's not like God will die if not enough people make it into Heaven.

I would say God does love us and everyone since we are God's creation. Having faith in a God of unconditional love is not the same thing as saying God is this way or that. Having faith is a way of organizing ones life according to a belief.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Raggedyman
How can there be love without judgement, your argument is fallacious

Maybe your idea of love is not love. I would argue love is more about acceptance than judgment.

So your God is one of murder then?

How is that loving to the victim?

I don't see how you make the leap from acceptance to judging someone to be worthy of murder.

My faith is a God of unconditional love who would allow Hitler and Charles Manson through the gates of heaven to experience eternal heavenly bliss. For Hitler and Charles Manson, God may be the only one who loves them.

Are you saying God is not capable of loving Hitler or Charles Manson? An omnipotent God is surely capable of loving and forgiving Hitler and Charles Manson. An omnipotent God may be the only one who could forgive either one of those two.

What does loving to the victim mean? Are you suggesting God allowing Hitler and Charles Manson to be tortured for all eternity is somehow an act of love? Your idea of love is very twisted. Love is acts of kindness not acts of hate.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: dfnj2015

Well if God wants nothing from us, then he doesn't love us either. There is no reason to believe He takes any interest in us at all, including giving us neverending bliss after we die.

Why would He?

The bible is clear, we were created for relationship with God, we become His equals.
Knowing right from wrong is a step towards that relationship

If you don't want to be in a relationship with God, don't accept Christ, don't repent, don't change your,lifestyle

There is no evidence for eternal punishment for humanity, I can find in the bible
Just separation then anhialation

a reply to: dfnj2015

A child has a thorn that is turning septic, his parent needs to get it out but doing so is going to hurt and he deem's it necessary for the sake of the child.

That is parental judgement, judgement can be made out of love.

The pain in the child - human race - may be horrendous but the child will survive and grow to be like his parent, one day perhaps he shall be called upon like his father was to make a similar judgement.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Dfnj, why are you taking characteristics of what you presume the Christian God is and then asking us to explain your assumptions
Your comprehension of our God Is wrong
God is called Justice, merciful, Gracious, you can't be gracious or merciful if there is no wrath to be turned away from.

Also, you are presuming the reality of this world, you are placing your personal opinion on matters you have no understanding of.
God is a righteous judge, you are not

People like you, looking at other peoples evil, lose perspective and see themselves as worthy because their evil is not so bad
Manson or Hitler, who cares, it's just an argument
Gods will be done

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: intrptr

WORSHIP ME OR BURN FOR ETERNITY RAWWWRRR!

Wasn't about continual worship for eternity. It was:

- Don't worship something stoopid (commandments 1 & 2).

- Don't bad-mouth others or tell porkies (commandments 3 & 9).

- Honor and remember your origins (commandments 4 & 5).

- Don't murder (commandment 6).

- Don't 'sleep around' (commandment 7).

- Don't steal (commandment 8).

- Don't try and get what you can't have (commandment 10).

But you filter it the way you want, doesn't make you right, though.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: dfnj2015

A child has a thorn that is turning septic, his parent needs to get it out but doing so is going to hurt and he deem's it necessary for the sake of the child.

That is parental judgement, judgement can be made out of love.

The pain in the child - human race - may be horrendous but the child will survive and grow to be like his parent, one day perhaps he shall be called upon like his father was to make a similar judgement.

A very well presented allegory!

My faith is a God of unconditional love who would allow Hitler and Charles Manson through the gates of heaven to experience eternal heavenly bliss. For Hitler and Charles Manson, God may be the only one who loves them. Are you saying God is not capable of loving Hitler or Charles Manson? An omnipotent God is surely capable of loving and forgiving Hitler and Charles Manson. An omnipotent God may be the only one who could forgive either one of those two.

I think you deserve some credit for having that viewpoint. Its an important point to my mind. Those dudes would need some work before they themselves would be willing or able to stroll through the pearly gates though.

a reply to: Raggedyman

You know this. I know this. The OP seems to be living in the idea that no matter what he does, God is peachy keen fine with it and will reward him for it just the same and loves him for it.

The OP has a very different idea of what love is and how it works than you and I do.

If I parented the way his version of god seems to love, I could watch my little boy call the neighbor kids nasty names, kick them in the shins, disrespect his teachers and instructors, refuse to behave in any and every situation, and then turn around give a kiss and a giant hug tell him I love him and take him out for a massive ice cream cone, movie and popcorn.

Instead, I discipline him for all those things having judged his actions to be wrong and after an appropriate amount of time and his expressions of remorse, we talk about why what he did was wrong and then I tell him that I love him.

Understand too, that in all these situations, my son has clear expectations for his behavior going in. He knows what the ground rules are and what will happen if he doesn't behave up to snuff.

If I pattern my parenting off of how I imagine God deals with us (or would if He were more hands on), then I am a monster parent just like a God who judges and enforces consequences is apparently a monster.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Raggedyman
You know this. I know this. The OP seems to be living in the idea that no matter what he does, God is peachy keen fine with it and will reward him for it just the same and loves him for it.

How do you really know what God thinks? Do you think you are God?

It doesn't really matter what God thinks. I think you missed the point of the OP. I have FAITH in a God of unconditional love. I may be wrong and it may turn out badly for me. But regardless, my faith is stronger than yours because I am choosing to believe in a God of unconditional love.

originally posted by: ketsuko
The OP has a very different idea of what love is and how it works than you and I do.

Your idea of love is full of hate. My idea of love is unconditional love.

originally posted by: ketsuko
If I parented the way his version of god seems to love, I could watch my little boy call the neighbor kids nasty names, kick them in the shins, disrespect his teachers and instructors, refuse to behave in any and every situation, and then turn around give a kiss and a giant hug tell him I love him and take him out for a massive ice cream cone, movie and popcorn.

Having good behavior has nothing to do with God. If you have sinned against someone else what difference does it make if God forgives you. You have to get your absolution from the person you have sinned against. Not God.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Instead, I discipline him for all those things having judged his actions to be wrong and after an appropriate amount of time and his expressions of remorse, we talk about why what he did was wrong and then I tell him that I love him.

Good for you. Teaching someone proper behavior is not love. It is good parenting.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Understand too, that in all these situations, my son has clear expectations for his behavior going in. He knows what the ground rules are and what will happen if he doesn't behave up to snuff.

Maybe you are sadist who just like making people obey rules. This has nothing to do with love.

originally posted by: ketsuko
If I pattern my parenting off of how I imagine God deals with us (or would if He were more hands on), then I am a monster parent just like a God who judges and enforces consequences is apparently a monster.

Yes, you are a monster if you like disciplining people who have less power than you do.

originally posted by: yughii

My faith is a God of unconditional love who would allow Hitler and Charles Manson through the gates of heaven to experience eternal heavenly bliss. For Hitler and Charles Manson, God may be the only one who loves them. Are you saying God is not capable of loving Hitler or Charles Manson? An omnipotent God is surely capable of loving and forgiving Hitler and Charles Manson. An omnipotent God may be the only one who could forgive either one of those two.

I think you deserve some credit for having that viewpoint. Its an important point to my mind. Those dudes would need some work before they themselves would be willing or able to stroll through the pearly gates though.

The other inhabitants of heaven experiencing eternal bliss would be too busy experiencing their bliss to really care much about the neighbors.

Unless each of us has the power of omnipotence so we can control the choices we can make in our lives, then maybe there is a sequence to the choices Charles Manson or Adolf Hitler has that only God is capable of understanding. And in the judgment of those list of choices, our omnipotent God sides with a golf-like mulligan judgment.

Again, what difference does it make if everyone is experiencing eternal bliss. I think this whole construct of your-are-in or you-are-out, heaven and hell, is made by men to control, manipulate, and get people to buy Bibles, pay tithes, or give money to the Temple to buy favor with God. An omnipotent God has everything God needs. And omnipotent needs absolutely NOTHING from us. So what difference does going to Hell make other than it makes people who have hate in their hearts feel a little better that their desire for revenge gets realized.

The things is torturing and making someone suffer for all eternity has got to be the greatest possible cruel and unusual punishment. I can't imagine a God of love would be so cruel as to have eternal punishments for finite crimes. It's not like the people Hitler killed are not getting to experience eternal heavenly bliss.

I choose to have faith in a God of unconditional love who would never be so cruel as to have eternal punishment.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: dfnj2015
Dfnj, why are you taking characteristics of what you presume the Christian God is and then asking us to explain your assumptions
Your comprehension of our God Is wrong
God is called Justice, merciful, Gracious, you can't be gracious or merciful if there is no wrath to be turned away from.

You have the right to your opinion. I was not making a claim about God or the way God is. All I said is I have faith in a God of unconditional love. My faith is my faith. It is not commentary on God.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Also, you are presuming the reality of this world, you are placing your personal opinion on matters you have no understanding of.
God is a righteous judge, you are not

I would never presume to speak for God like you are doing. I don't think anyone really knows the mind of God.

My idea of what is "righteous" may be different than yours. My idea of being righteous means you do not pretend to be God passing judgment on other people as if you are speaking from authority. But this is my opinion. I do not speak for God. You can keep going on dubbing people as "righteous" or not "righteous". Obviously, you have no problem insulting other people you do not agree with about such matters. In my way thinking, you do not ask God for forgiveness. The only way to get absolution is from the people you have sinned against. Not from God. But I will save you the trouble and just forgive you out of the kindness of my heart for insulting me by claiming I was not "righteous".

originally posted by: Raggedyman
People like you, looking at other peoples evil, lose perspective and see themselves as worthy because their evil is not so bad
Manson or Hitler, who cares, it's just an argument
Gods will be done

What is "good" and what is "evil" is a subjective judgment made by men. Based on human experiments there is no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. God is clearly pro-choice and indifferent to how we treat each other. If you want to have judgment, justice, and absolution, it is man's responsibility not God to clean up our own mess.

a reply to: dfnj2015

My problem is you are demanding God to accept those who don't want Him
If a person chooses they don't want unconditional love, why would God force it on them

It's a choice, it's not Calvinism

If God is indifferent, why law and judgement, why the Holy Spirit to change hearts

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: dfnj2015
A child has a thorn that is turning septic, his parent needs to get it out but doing so is going to hurt and he deem's it necessary for the sake of the child.
That is parental judgement, judgement can be made out of love.

Causing someone pain is not love. Deciding to take care of someone is an act of love. But if there were a method of taking care of someone without any pain, a loving parent would use the method having the least amount of pain. A loving parent would not choose the method having the MOST amount of pain.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: dfnj2015
My problem is you are demanding God to accept those who don't want Him
If a person chooses they don't want unconditional love, why would God force it on them
It's a choice, it's not Calvinism

I'm not sure why anyone would choose not to experience eternal heavenly bliss. But let's say someone actually did. Then what would our God of unconditional love do. Well, immediately give the the person omnipotent powers. Now you may be thinking, "Wow, that's unfair. You treat God badly, you turn away, you don't accept his love, and you are rewarded with having omnipotent powers." But for someone who is turning away from God, what better way for the God to win back someone's love than to give them everything their heart desires no matter how dark and petty. The thing is having omnipotent powers is not all it's cracked up to be. After millions of years of exercising all the dark parts of ones soul the person will eventually get bored and return back to God to experience eternal heavenly bliss. I doubt there is anything we can experience on this Earth or we can imagine that comes close to what the experience of eternal heavenly bliss would be like. So in the end, nobody can resist God's love. God collects all our souls in the end.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
If God is indifferent, why law and judgement, why the Holy Spirit to change hearts

I said God is indifferent to how we treat each other. And if we want judgment, justice, and absolution we are responsible for doling it out not God.

I don't know the answer to "why law and judgment, why the Holy Spirit to change hearts". As far as I can tell this is all made-up stuff to sell Bibles, collect tithes, or to trick people to give money to the Temple to buy favor from God.

I said a lot about morality in the previous posts. It's not like I do not think being moral is important. I just don't think morality comes from the threat of eternal damnation. People are good people because they believe in the golden rule. People are good people because they have empathy for other people. People who hurt other people are psychopaths who have no empathy. Psychopaths are going to hurt people no matter what. Religion like gun control is not going to stop psychopaths.

Do you really consider what you say
If everyone has omnipotent powers doesn't that cancel out any one else's omnipotent power

Does logic still exist

Religion won't stop anyone, christianity is personal, it's about the individual changing, not the community changing

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Do you really consider what you say
If everyone has omnipotent powers doesn't that cancel out any one else's omnipotent power

An omnipotent can certainly give out omnipotent powers where reality comes into existence the moment you imagine it. It's not as big a threat to God as you imagine. Just like Heaven exists in an alternate space-time dimension people having omnipotent powers would be confined to their own cells of Heaven. Having omnipotent powers is little like cloud algebra where one plus one equals one. If you get too strong you just become absorbed into God's identity indistinguishable from the original.

But for the sake of working out one's character flaws, just like the movie Groundhog Day, having the ability to experience the consequences one's evil actions is enough to eventual conform to God's way of being. I doubt very much anyone could resist God's infinite love forever. God is the sweetest love out there. Eventually, God collects all the souls because there is no better experience than heavenly eternal bliss. It's a pretty big carrot.

If you are going to ask a bigger question as to why then does God exists and why does each of us exists, then my answer would be God exists to experience the infinite of every possibility. God's omnipotence requires every possible finite experience to be realized over eternity. For each of us, we are small part in completing God's infinite experience. We are God's way of experience the thrill of having limitations by sharing in our experiences of joys, successes, frustrations, and pains. I'm not saying pain is good. I'm saying as finite beings our experiences of pain and frustrations are happiness fuel for our successes.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Does logic still exist

Just as an omnipotent God is not bounded by the laws of physics, our omnipotent God is not bounded by the laws of logic. Otherwise, having limitations, our omnipotent God would not be omnipotent.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Religion won't stop anyone, christianity is personal, it's about the individual changing, not the community changing

The purpose of religion is to answer the four great existential questions:

1. Who am I?
2. Why am I here?
3. What does it all mean?
4. What will happen to me when I die?

Religion is a map on how we are to live our life. There are many maps. People love their own map. I'm sure yours is the best one out there. It's all good.

a reply to: dfnj2015

With all due respect, judging by your avatar Zen an sci fi theme, why would a relationship with God matter at all, in the over all aim of Zen.

Everyone a critic, but judge not less ye be judge, the Bible, Jewish, Christian way of saying, don't speak so soon or jynx it, because God listening?

The almighty described to be a jealous one, and jealousy a very ugly thing.

a reply to: Specimen

I thought about this for a long time. Why does morality matter? An omnipotent needs absolutely nothing from us. So why do we exist? Why do we matter?

I think the reason why God exists is realized every possible pattern and configuration of matter over an infinite amount of time. Each of is God's way of experiencing the thrill of having limitations by sharing our life experiences. Every possible choice you can make in your life is played out along with everyone else's choices. The time it takes for God to realize every possibility is beyond any comprehension.

It's not that a relationship to God matters or doesn't matter. We just exist playing our piece of the infinite jigsaw puzzle of every possibility realized. God listens because when you are omnipotent you are always looking for something to break up the boredom.