Why don’t Jews Believe Jesus was a Messiah?? Dr. Brown vs. Rabbi Frietag

Lately I have been on a “messianic Jew” kick.. So I have been Researching their beliefs and political circumstances surrounding them being rejected by the Jewish community, but strangely enough, not the Christian one..

Jews are adament that Messianic Jews are Christians pretending to be Jews to recruit Jewish members.

Something apparently Jews find very offensive. However, Christians do not seem to feel as if Messianic Jews are perverting their Religion...

Something that I think points to the Jews having a point that Messianic Jews are actually just a different sect of Christians.

That’s really off the point though lol..

From watching debates and such between various rabbis and seemingly only one “Messianic Jew” a Dr. Michael Brown..

(Man it is hard not to make a police shooting joke there....but I’ll abstain :p)


This particular debate I found interesting...

youtu.be...


It is between A Rabbi Daniel frietag and Dr. Brown.. who seemingly is the only spokesman for Messianic Jews..

Because as I searched videos of debates the Jewish participant changed, but Dr. Brown was always the other participant.

THE ACTUAL POINT AFTER WAAAYYY TOO MUCH SET UP!!!!!


Basically Rabbi Frietag’s point is this, and it is fairly hard to argue with..



According to the Rabbi the Torah , the book the OT was based on repeatedly says , over and over “Obey my laws”....

The Rabbi claims that over 600 times the Bible repeatedly, unambiguously repeated “obey my laws”..


“No matter what happens, Obey my laws..”

“If you want to know how to be righteous. Obey my laws”.

“If someone ever comes to you and tells you you no longer have to Obey my laws, Don’t listen to them. Obey my laws”

“If someone tells you not to, they are lying..Obey my laws..”

“No matter what the strippers may tell you.. Obey my laws..”

“Even in the champagne room..Obey my laws...”


So In the Jewish interpretation the thought that Jesus came to change the laws is CRAZY!”

It is the opposite from what the Jews thought the Bible was telling them to do. Really, it was fundamentally the opposite of what they thought god wanted from them.


Their bible specifically and repeatedly told them to watch out for false prophets, and specifically warned them not to believe anyone who ever tried to alter the original covenant.

To them, the Bible says nothing about a “son of god” , it says nothing about miracles or resurrection, nor anything about belief in a divine figure who would rescue the worlds souls from damnation, Nothing about belief in his son becoming the primary concern.

They were expecting, One who would deliver them from bondage, and after jesus died. They were stil in bondage....

It is a super interesting debate..

——————————————————————————


There is a second part that I found very interesting, and that is Dr. Brown States a verse claiming the “covenant would be changed. Saying that’s what Jesus did.. but then Frietag reads the next verse. Where the exact new Covenant is laid out..

Aka not the new covenant with the world, allowing all the worlds souls into Jewish heaven.

Thoughts??

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Jews believe in only one true God. Believing Jesus is God is idol worship.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Why don’t Jews Believe Jesus was a Messiah??

Jesus wasn't their messiah...

Their messiah will be a conquering King,and a great political leader that will bring peace to the entire world apparently

And the main idea behind this is that their messiah will be human, not god, or a demigod... and this will be done in his life time... not upon his return after dying

a reply to: JoshuaCox

still dont understand why im supposed to believe in texts written by man that cant be corroborated?

believe in god? good for you, believe in it, but why follow the words of a stranger that wrote a book saying its the words of your god?

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
“No matter what happens, Obey my laws..”

“If you want to know how to be righteous. Obey my laws”.

“If someone ever comes to you and tells you you no longer have to Obey my laws, Don’t listen to them. Obey my laws”

“If someone tells you not to, they are lying..Obey my laws..”

“No matter what the strippers may tell you.. Obey my laws..”

“Even in the champagne room..Obey my laws...”


So In the Jewish interpretation the thought that Jesus came to change the laws is CRAZY!”

It is the opposite from what the Jews thought the Bible was telling them to do. Really, it was fundamentally the opposite of what they thought god wanted from them.

I think the message is not "Obey my laws" but live your life with morality. Morality changes over time. I doubt there are many soccer moms out there who would condone animal sacrifices in order to gain favor with God. Look at this verse:

“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

The implication of this verse in the Bible is slavery is okay! Sorry, slavery is immoral and evil.

I don't know if Jesus taught the opposite from what the Jews thought the Bible was telling them to do. I always thought he told them they did not have to give money to the Temple in order to attain salvation. Why else would they crucify him? You don't get crucified over splitting hairs of Jewish religious doctrine.

just study more on the message.....it's been missed badly

the Scripture is actually magic here on Earth....I promise

ya want supernatural help by magic in this life? then just talk to Jesus in your heart, not outloud if ya want....that see....no one can ever stop you from praying

you do not have to change a friggin thing you're doing....just talk to Him and He will do the rest by magic

His burden on you is light and his yoke steering your struggle is easy.

a reply to: dfnj2015

I think the Jewish population dropped all the crazy stuff by taking the “story to teach a moral” rather than a literal interpretation.

Jews all still believe in science and such.

Matthew_5:18

jesus didnt come to change dot nor tittle.

Paul/Saul changed all the rules and ceremonies to make a clear differentiation

a reply to: GBP/JPY

Basically meditate and center yourself.

It’s the same concept that works for many things.

I was taught to believe that a magic rabbit lays colorful eggs one day of the year, that reindeer can fly, and fat men can come down chimneys.
Why do adults lie to their children?
Oh, and dead people do not come back to life.
With some exceptions with modern medical technology.

best in a new post.....the law

the law

the law was only for 2000 years

before the law from moses.....there was not, that's 2000years before the law came

after Jesus the law went poof as far as requirement for going up.....he....he

we love the law and keep it but not under penalty of being no good at it

we know we're not able and God said as much....not paraphrasing, it's a new deal.....turns out all human hearts are flawed.....selfish and such

when we do bad....it's only because we are still corruptable.....so it's not really the real us doing the bad, it's the old nature rearing it's horny head and we try to resist as best as we will......but to be judged by what crap we pull will not happen because God said it's as if it's lost at the bottom of the sea and so He can't see it

if ya go to heaven and tell you're sorry for the crap.....He'll say what crap?

Jesus is found every where in the old testament....jewish brothers don't read isaiah....tells of a man on a cross but they won't break his bones....just get his garment by dice....he story of joe....joe with the coat of many colors .he has a dream and tells his family....get this....they will bow to him in reverence

so they hate him and reject him...toss him to die

don't recognize him as he deals with their need for food

later he reveals himself and they know they did him wrong but He forgives and loves his family

the story of Joseph in the bible is the story of jesus

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

“If someone ever comes to you and tells you you no longer have to Obey my laws, Don’t listen to them. Obey my laws”
...
So In the Jewish interpretation the thought that Jesus came to change the laws is CRAZY!”

It is the opposite from what the Jews thought the Bible was telling them to do. Really, it was fundamentally the opposite of what they thought god wanted from them.

The bible says lots of things.

So, it's a matter of which thing you pick, and when you chose that thing.

The relevant thing here is GOD's promise declared..

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. -- KJV, Jeremiah 31:33

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. -- KJV, Jeremiah 31:34

Jesus didn't come to "teach" anyone anything.

He came to "fulfill" that promise, of the time that would come when the LORD would "forgive" and "remember their sin no more".

Jesus walked the earth and simply "delivered the message" of "forgiveness" and the "taking away of sin".

Now, some people heard the message and understood, and others heard but did not understand.

The LORD has put his "law" in the "inward parts" of the select and chosen, so that they immediately understand the message when they hear it. They are not being "taught", they are "witnessing" the truth that is already within them.

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. -- KJV, John 8:43

This automatically "separates" the "sheep" from the "goats".

The sheep hear, the goats cannot hear.

Those with the law within them, automatically Obey the law that is written there, they don't need instruction.

So, when Jesus speaks, they recognize the truth in his message, because they know it internally already.

The Messianic Jews recognize the truth in Jesus' message, but other Jews do not at this time.

At some point all the Jews will come to understand something really "unusual" happened 2000 years ago.

They will begin to see, and notice the promise in Jeremiah, and wonder about it.

When they get it, the book says...

there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth -- KJV, Matthew 13:50

So, obviously, some Jews have to go up, while others go down.

It's the cycle.

a reply to: JoshuaCox
Didn't the Christians assimilated the Old Testament God with the concept or doctrine of the Holy Trinity? Was this discussed during the debate? I've only listened up to 37 minutes plus mark for now.

Did the Christians adopted the concept of Trinity from much earlier ancient pagan writings?

a reply to: MaxTamesSiva

Didn't the Christians assimilated the Old Testament God with the concept or doctrine of the Holy Trinity?

No...

Said "Christians" were Jewish...

there isn't a trinity in the Judaic faith

originally posted by: dashen
Matthew_5:18

jesus didnt come to change dot nor tittle.

Paul/Saul changed all the rules and ceremonies to make a clear differentiation

Let's read the entire verse...

Matthew 5:18 - 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be FULFILLED.

What needs to be fulfilled?

Luke 24:44 - 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be FULFILLED, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning ME.

John 5:37-40 & 46 - 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent ME, hath borne witness of ME. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of ME.

40 And ye will not come to ME, that ye might have life.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed ME; for he wrote of ME.

Once ALL has been FULFILLED, all will pass away and be made new, but not before the Millennial period on earth that Jesus promised the Jews in his "Old Covenant". Unfortunately, two thirds of them will be cut off from the land during the process, as written in Zechariah 13. The remnant will be refined.

More information on how Christ has fulfilled scripture...

www.desiringgod.org...

a reply to: dfnj2015

I don't know if Jesus taught the opposite from what the Jews thought the Bible was telling them to do. I always thought he told them they did not have to give money to the Temple in order to attain salvation. Why else would they crucify him? You don't get crucified over splitting hairs of Jewish religious doctrine.

The Jews crucified Jesus for proclaiming himself to be God...

John 10:23-33

23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

a reply to: MaxTamesSiva

Did the Christians adopted the concept of Trinity from much earlier ancient pagan writings?

Twenty-five years ago, rabbinical scholar Alan Segal produced what is still the major work on the idea of two powers in heaven in Jewish thought. Segal argued that the two powers idea was not deemed heretical in Jewish theology until the second century C.E.

twopowersinheaven.com... Mike Heiser gives a lecture on the subject

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Jesus entire life, even his crucifixion was foretold in the old testament, the Modern Jewry often base there religion on work's from as late as the 7th, 9th, 10th and 11th century's and most of those rabbi's whom wrote, interpreted and compiled those later work's had a strong will to reject Christ (and also let's be fair most that claim to be Christian they have met hated them and were actually definitely not Christians in there behavior).

But had they looked at the book of revelation they would have seen the entire version of Christ they are waiting for outlined perfectly.

He will come back and he will blast through the gate which the Muslim's blocked to attempt to prevent his second coming.

Only then will the veil be lifted from them and only then will they begin to know the truth, it is said that they shall weep over what was done for though it had already been foretold they exchanged glory and a far earlier salvation of the world for the world they caused to come into being by rejecting him when he first came.

Also this Rabbi is a false teacher, Jesus pointedly stated "I have not come to remove the law but to fulfill it".

Also he is NOT a get out of jail card, if we have become christian's then we obey the law.

In time's long past the priest would slaughter the sacrificial lamb and sprinkle it's blood and water with hyssop over the crowd in ritual purification, when Jesus was chosen over Barabbas in debate with Pontius Pilot and chosen instead to be crucified (Because the Sanhedrin - the Ruling body of the elect upper class and wealthy Rabbis - many of whom he had beaten in debate time after time after time hated and feared him him because they saw that he was a threat to there own power) though Pilot found no fault in him the Jews said let his blood be on us, his blood was indeed upon them, he was whipped through the city street's and his blood splashed, he was then crucified and his heard pierced.

He will come again and those false Rabbis shall be corrected, indeed many of them shall become his most devoted servants, yes even they whom mock him and call hatred upon him.

There is a genuine incident that bares your thought but you must watch this entire video, this man found the ark of the Covenant and it is not a lie despite hatred and rejection from both Jewish and Christian quarters over this discovery, the Jewish Authority's even sent some men supposedly descended from the tribe of Levi and of the Rabbinical class into the cavern but they actually Dropped stone cold dead and then Mr Wyatte was the one that retrieved there body's so they were NOT allowed to even approach the ark - maybe because it was underneath the real crucifixion location and has the blood of Christ the Lamb upon it's right side.
An Arab was even allowed to get closer though he went temporarily blind and refused to ever go in there again.


After these deaths the Jewish Authority's put a steel door over the entrance, then poured concrete over it and bulldozed rubble over the entrance to the very location of the Ark of the Covenant in order to completely obscure as well as block it and they also bulldozed the crucifixion site to hide that.
Ron Wyatte was a dental technician and an amateur archaeologist whom followed the bible as it was written and found a great many thing's which are also still being debated, though there is now a foundation that accept's donations he NEVER maid any money off of it and did what he did out of faith.
This is from when he found the alter of the Golden Calf after also following the bible description's, his faith and god's direction.



The truth is that controlling the religion give's the rabbinical class power and power is status, they get respect and there word is law and they never want to let that family tradition go so they will always reject the Lord and yet claim that they represent him themselves.




You can have all the proof in the world, there will be those that will deny it and those that will reject it and those that will simply not believe it.

originally posted by: dashen
Matthew_5:18

jesus didnt come to change dot nor tittle.

Paul/Saul changed all the rules and ceremonies to make a clear differentiation

DING, DING, DING we have a winner here.

remember the two types of Christian faith that existed, one was about 50 years after the death of JC. That was the one which was sheparded by James and Peter. That one was largely based on a different thing. It was not really meant to be spread through out the world and if not for Saul/Paul, some 300 years later, XT might have remained a niche religion.

Also remember that during those times there was a big thing about the 'Apocalypse'. Everyone thought that Earthly deeds did not have any meaning because the world was going to be destroyed in their lifetimes. It was more than just 'your reward will be in Heaven, just profess that JC is the SoG and that he died for your sins (since at the time all people were thought to be sinners)>

Paul basically originated the idea of Original Sin and he also changed the concept to 'Redemption' and away from the following of "Laws". The XTian religion we know of today is not the "James/Peter" XTianity of post 50 years after JC's death, but the one that Paul created and spread and talked about in his letters to the Roman church.

Hope I got that straight. We just studied it in Ancient Political theory last semester.