Did Jerusalem Ever Belong to Palestine?

a reply to: intrptr

I seem to recall the Nazis offering the Jews their own States weapons and government..
Oh no way that never happened those were the Palestinians.
Also since 1968 the Palestinian population has grown threefold.
.
.
Either the Jews are horribly bad at genocide or you are terribly misinformed

originally posted by: intrptr

originally posted by: dashen
a reply to: intrptr

It was name Judea.
Judea. Familiarize yourself with that word.
Judea.
Judea.
It hasn't been populated by Philistines since they were conquered by the Babylonians.
Little hint that was before 1948

Judea, whats that?.

That's pretty much all I needed to see.
I'm done playing crazy with the electronic intifada for today.
.
Bye bye now

originally posted by: GokuVsSuperman0

I've only done some cursory reading because I'm lazy.

You started a post and are lazy to not put in some key facts...lol

So the Ottoman Empire had influence or control over Jerusalem and Palestine(called something slightly different) up until WW1 when the British won the city at the Battle of Jerusalem(1917). Ottomans lost, and a few years after the war, the League of Nations entrusted the UK with the whole region. The city went from pre WW1 population of 8000 to 165000 by 1948.

The Ottoman empire was huge and Britain and France basically split it up within the Sykes-Picot agreement into what we see today as Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Trans Jordan (i.e. Palestine). At a later date the Arab Palestine and the Jewish Palestine were split up into Jordan and Israel. The Kurds didn't get a country mainly due to wars going on and the fact the whole area was basically nomadic tribes and France/Britain couldn't figure out how to do it, but much of what we see today in the Middle East are actually artificial states created by France Britain.

The UN had planned to split the land somehow but their plan was never implemented because war broke out and the israelis declared their independence after the British abandoned the region. In 1948, Jerusalem is declared the capital of the new state of Israel. A cease fire with Jordan is achieved between two officers and a hand drawn line on a map that splits Jerusalem between east and west(guess they were copying Berlin). In 1950, east Jerusalem is annexed by Jordan.

Palestine (never being a country) covered a very wide area being nomadic, but in 1921 Trans Jordan deemed all lands east of Jordan river to be Trans Jordan and all lands west to be Palestine and this is where the problem started since Trans Jordan was Palestine too, but they wanted to make sure no Jew could settle East of the Jordan river. That is where we come to 1946 with Jordan's independence and 1948 for Israel's independence. What they ended up with was the area west the Jordan river as being Jewish Palestine and East being Arab Palestine.

Then come all the Arab-Israeli wars sometimes started by Israel sometimes started by the Arab states. From 1948 on, the constant wars led to Arab states expelling all their Jewish citizens, which of course led to more Jewish people settling in Israel.

Expelling started in 1921 with Trains Jordan

In 1967 Israel went to war with Egypt. On the 2nd day, Jordan joined the Six Day War. Jordan lost east Jerusalem after hand to hand fighting on the Temple Mount. And Israel did to east Jerusalem what Jordan did in 1950, they extended their laws and jurisdiction.

And here we are, basically nothing has changed since. There was the Camp David Accords and other such peace talks and negotiations, but they all leave the Palestinians unhappy or without a say in the matter.

Well actually Israel won and took much of Egypt's northern oil fields and other areas which they have given back though they could have kept.

So Jerusalem is ruled by the Ottoman empire, then the British empire, then an independent Israeli state, then Jordan and back to Israel. How or when did Palestine ever rule over Jerusalem as a nation state?

This is probably gonna piss people off, but the Palestenians' situation reminds me a bit of Native Americans. They feel that outsiders came and stole their land and they want it back. I understand that. But there are certain realities that make it impossible. They're not well organized, they don't have a real fighting force and they've never been an internationally recognized state in the modern era. Either they've been governed by Arab states or empires. As far as I can tell there's only one way for Palestine to have it's independence and have the entire city of Jerusalem as it's capital and that is the same way Israel created itself. War.

As I said before the Arab Palestine is actually Jordan with the Jordan river separating the two. Now we have the West bank that the people there want their own country in this small area. These people are basically refugees that no other Arab country wants to deal with since they make nice cannon fodder for Israel.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Nice to see actual facts for a change.

originally posted by: intrptr

It was Palestine for thousands of years until 1948. Now go back to burying the past.

What do you call Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria then? They were all part of the Ottoman empire and were artificially created by Britain and France... Palestine is in reference of nomadic tribes that traveled over all those countries to included both Arabs and Jews as Palestine...

What past is being buried? How about Kurdistan, you know that country that should have happened but never did? Another thing UK/France messed up as we can see below as it should have been.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Before the lines were arbitrarily drawn on maps by the victors after WWI, the whole region was called Greater Arabia.

originally posted by: intrptr


Before the lines were arbitrarily drawn on maps by the victors after WWI, the whole region was called Greater Arabia.

Yep...might as well say "unknown" The whole area was nothing more than nomadic tribes. I guest my point is there is no such thing as Palestine and for anyone to suggest the West Bank is not a part is Israel, or Israel is not really a country must also say Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq are also not really countries.

Think about it, the Ottoman's took the lands from the Byzantine Empire and Europe took the lands from the Ottoman empire and Israel came about as to how the UK/France drew lines, Trans Jordan's drew lines along the Jordan river to keep Jews west of the river and once again the WAR in 1967 solidified the borders for Israel. Israel could have kept a lot more land that they won including Egypt northern oil fields...

Where am I wrong with all this?

a reply to: Xtrozero

The whole area was nothing more than nomadic tribes. I guest my point is there is no such thing as Palestine and for anyone to suggest the West Bank is not a part is Israel, or Israel is not really a country must also say Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq are also not really countries.

Lines on a map. Many folk have adopted western ways or had it pounded into them for so long they know no different. We need their resources and their servitude. Thats why we divide and conquer them, and continue invading the whole region, murdering them in droves.

This should be clear how we use favoritism and threat of destruction to keep them subservient.

Before the industrialization of the oil, the Bedouin tribes roamed freely, the only disputes between them were for Oasis, tiny enclaves of green in a sea of sun baked sand.

We would hardly care to this day except all that money and infrastructure infused into the region has created huge populations that are now looking around and realizing just how manipulated they have been for so long.

So much for the ARAB SPRING.

originally posted by: MaxMech
a reply to: Azureblue

It sure as christ has never belonged to the jews either

"Never" is a strong word if you consider the fact that Eastern Jerusalem belongs to the Jews since 1948.

"Never" is a strong word if you consider the fact that Eastern Jerusalem belongs to the Jews since 1948.

Belonged to the jews since 1948??

You very clearly beleive in war which means it seems very likely to me you are a person who does not have to fight it at the front line yourself. Do you leave that up to someone else a?

a reply to: intrptr

Israel rose from the ashes of another empire.

Like every other country on earth.

a reply to: intrptr

We need their resources and their servitude. Thats why we divide and conquer them, and continue invading the whole region, murdering them in droves. This should be clear how we use favoritism and threat of destruction to keep them subservient. Before the industrialization of the oil, the Bedouin tribes roamed freely, the only disputes between them were for Oasis, tiny enclaves of green in a sea of sun baked sand. We would hardly care to this day except all that money and infrastructure infused into the region has created huge populations that are now looking around and realizing just how manipulated they have been for so long.

I can understand you desire to live in a utopian world, but surly you see how naive it all sounds.
You say "We divide and conquer and invading and murdering", but this is how the real world works. It's not only "us", it literally everybody. Every country acts to promote it's own interests. The west does it, but also China, Russia, all the Muslim and all the Arab countries. Not even going to talk about what is going on in Africa.
You can complain if you want, just know that, unfortunately, this is never going to change.

a reply to: MaxMech

It's too bad most of the coddled population can't see that. Putting their faith in corrupt politicians suit their needs more than putting faith in themselves.

a reply to: Azureblue

You very clearly beleive in war which means it seems very likely to me you are a person who does not have to fight it at the front line yourself. Do you leave that up to someone else a?

Not sure how one can "beleive in war". It's just part of history.

a reply to: nwtrucker

The way I see it, there are numerous parties in this matter. There is no clear line of division between them. Politics is a practical trade. Each day new events happen, often times perpetrated by a specific group on the direction of some higher up to thwart a movement by a party considered not allied with one side.

For instance, Brittain and France had interest in dismantling the Ottoman empire, using the Arab revolt. Yet, the Arab revolt was highly fractured in competing ideas and claims. They saw themselves as the teachers to less developed peoples on their road to self determination and statehood. The benevolence of these ideas are often eclipsed by other interests.

For instance, some groups would rather maintain the ottoman Empire, yet, revolted to gain more self governance. It is crazy, when you look at it. There was a parliament of sorts in the Ottoman empire, where for obvious reasons the turks held the majority. There were Arabs represented, Albanians, Greeks, Armenians, set up in such a way that the "opposition" to Turkish hegemony was usually fractured and not big enough to pose any meaningful threat to the status quo. On and off, it was an experiment to maintain the status quo and introduce a more ...eh ... "enlightened" form of government.

So, in a world transitioning from Empires status quo (Brittain, France, Ottoman, German, Austrian-Hungarian, Italian, Russian, what have you) to what is now called nation states, there is the obvious reasons d'etre of keeping in tact some sort of post collapse status quo.

1917/ 1919 was a period of rapid changes. Just read the peace treaty of Versailles. German Empire was completely stripped of any international influence. It was crushed to pieces. German influence in Turkey, Egypt, Suez Canal, Morrocco, in Africa, in China, in the South pacific, was completely dismantled. The power vacuum left behind had to be filled. It gives you an idea of what happens when a status quo is broken.

if you wish, you could compare it to power vectors pushing in a certain direction. In physics, you can calculate the direction when two power vectors meet. Add in the mix, many smaller power vectors and take out a big one. The remaining power vectors will continue to push, yet the overall direction is different due to the eradication of a big one.

Each person, you included, are a power vector in the grand scheme. Uniting together with a 100 and you can project a force that pushes things in a certain direction influencing millions. Add to this the availability of power enhancers. instead of arrows, bullets, instead of setting fire to a barn, you have grenades and other explosives. Add in the mix certain religious believes, long genuinely held held coupled with the pain of losing loved ones for dead of cruelty.

The spiral of action reaction sets in motion a chain of events, that needs addressing in a practical manner. The first victim is always truth and reason and therefore all the good things we humans aspire to.

Sykes-Picot is one such a force and has put Brittain's eh .. previously stated resolve in a state of flux. It could be argued that a sparsely populated arid area, that by sheer labor can be transformed into a lush and quite cozy habitable zone is a good candidate to establish a homeland. That might seem a good idea in a certain time frame, only to be overtaken by the dynamics of groups of people, population growth through flocking and breeding.

It feeds into the fears, whipped up by religious fervor.

As humans we try to order the chaos of power vectors. Enter into the mix international law, law that "governs"how states treat each other, the rules of engagement if you wish. The way things are set up from that perspective, is a way to bring order to chaos. Yet, these will always trump individual claims for redress of grievances, allowing for resentment to smolder.

From an agreement perspective, it can be argued that the intention was to establish a Jewish homeland in Palestine/ Trans-Jordania. However, Feisal and the Jewish world congress were not the only ones with a plan. But in the end, we are talking about individual human beings and their hopes and desires for a peaceful life, a place to root, to rear their children, to leave behind an inheritance.

Nomadic/ semi nomadic/ agricultural/ industrial/ service people go about this particular issue in a different way with often times opposing means. And this has been mankind's history through the ages.

originally posted by: MaxMech
a reply to: intrptr

Israel rose from the ashes of another empire.

Like every other country on earth.

You mean 'every other empire', don't you? You just made genocide legal.

Surrender your family and property for orderly disposal at dawn. Its all good, right?

a reply to: dashen

I seem to recall the Nazis offering the Jews their own States weapons and government..

No they didn't. The Nazis rounded them up and put them in the "Warsaw Ghetto", another open air prison, just like Gaza.

Thats right theres no Palestine anymore, the final solution is proceeding.

a reply to: MaxMech

I can understand you desire to live in a utopian world, but surly you see how naive it all sounds.

Yah, peaceful coexistence, what a joke.

Only Imperialists think this way. They come offering peace but wage war, because after all, thats their world.

a reply to: intrptr

You mean 'every other empire', don't you? You just made genocide legal. Surrender your family and property for orderly disposal at dawn. Its all good, right?

It's not "all good" but it is the reality of this world. Someday the country you live in, will fall, and from it's ashes a new country will rise. I'm not looking forward to it, but I'm not deluding myself ether. This is the way it always been. Even in some utopian Startrek future, these kind of things will happen.

a reply to: intrptr

Yah, peaceful coexistence, what a joke. Only Imperialists think this way. They come offering peace but wage war, because after all, thats their world.

You talk about peaceful coexistence but have no problem justifying Palestinian terror or defending Hamas, which openly rejects peace.
I know what kind of "peaceful coexistence" you seek. The kind where people with your views peacefully coexist with each other, while everybody else is long dead.

a reply to: intrptr

No they didn't. The Nazis rounded them up and put them in the "Warsaw Ghetto", another open air prison, just like Gaza. Thats right theres no Palestine anymore, the final solution is proceeding.

Why no word about Egypt? Which can open it's border at any time and free the poor Gazans from their "open air prison".