America’s recognition of Jerusalem

a reply to: DarkPalSFO

The problem here is that non-religious governments will never understand why Israel feels the need to grow the Jewish state as a means of protecting themselves from the Islamic long term plan of eliminating Israel altogether. It's not just Jerusalem. It's never talked about in the media and most people have never done their homework on the issue. There will never be peace in the region for this purpose. The only thing Israel can do is to grow the state as a means of survival.

www.youtube.com...

Clashes in Bethlehem now live stream

I am a Trump supporter, but this ---- no. Never.

I had hoped he would think this through and not listen to his son in law so much.

Very much a bad move.

a reply to: TrueBrit

The Israeli government blockades routes of supply of medical aid and food to HUGE areas of Palestine, doing more harm to people who are entirely non-combatant and not in any way the enemies of Israel, than it ever does to those individuals who can be properly said to be dedicated to making guerilla warfare against Israel.

Blocking medical aid and food only happens when Hamas makes a threat against Israel. There are plenty of people in Gaza who admit that Hamas is holding them hostage as a way of keeping their own control over the area. It's another reason that Hamas commits a terrorist act every time elections come around in the region, thus canceling or delaying them. Hamas won't allow themselves to be voted out. It's been at least 10 or 12 years since the last election.

By the way, if you've ever questioned how dedicated the Muslims are in eventually eliminating Israel altogether, just look at a map that's been printed in the region. Israel is not on it.

a reply to: dragonlover12

Protests outside a US Consulate in Turkey as well...

a reply to: Deetermined

Can you happen to show us a copy of that map? Because there are new maps being drawn out right now for the region. But they only show Israel getting bigger.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: mightmight

Its not BS though, is it?

Israeli people are treated differently to Palestinians.

Well of course they are. Palestinians are not Israeli citiziens, of course they get treated differently. Not unlike every other state treats foreigners different than their own citizens.
Of course whats special in Israels case is the ongoing occupation of former Jordanian territorries gained during the six day war in 1967. The people living there are actually under administration of the israeli military, not the israeli civil administration.
And of course this results in different treatment. Complaining about this would be like complaining about different treatment of Iraqis and US Citizens in Iraq when the US was occupying Iraq durint the las decade. It simply makes no sense.
What would be apartheid? If Israel would treat Jews and Arabs in its pre-67 borders differently. This is not the case. Once you are an Israeli citizen, you enjoy the same rights, whether you are jewish, arab or whatever. Of course Israeli Arabs are generally less successfull and all that, but (while unfortunate) this is just the natural way of things. Black people in the US are generally less successfull than whites but noone sane would claim apartheid.

Israeli people do not have their land and homes bulldozed to make room for illegal settlements.

Correct. Neither Jewish or Arab Israeli citiziens get their homes bulldozed when they commit acts of terror.
Non citizen arabs living under military rule in the occupied territories get their homes bulldozed when they commit acts of terror. Clear distinction on citizenship and location, no apartheid, racism or whatever.
Personally i'm in favor of bulldozing homes of terrorists everywhere.

Israeli people are legally responsible for their own actions, but Palestinian people are murdered by their hundreds, by the Israeli military, using helicopter gunships, over the actions of five individuals on a rooftop. Entire districts are leveled to get at tiny numbers of political and paramilitary activists.

Yes, people die in war. The Israeli military conducts warfare no different than other western nations. Most of the time they show even more restraint, believe it or not.

The Israeli government blockades routes of supply of medical aid and food to HUGE areas of Palestine, doing more harm to people who are entirely non-combatant and not in any way the enemies of Israel, than it ever does to those individuals who can be properly said to be dedicated to making guerilla warfare against Israel.

Israel (and Egypt) blockade the Gaza strip, an actually rather small area. Blockade means, they control what goods get in. The situation for the people living there is not good (this is what you get if you vote for terrorists) but they are not starving either. You can make a living in Gaza, especially if Hamas doesnt shoot rockets at Israeli towns and cities.
The argument that the Blockade does more harm than good is irrelevant. Even if true it doesnt make it illegal.
And we dont have access to Israeli intelligence, so we cant really tell how much the blockade harms Hamas.

The number of extreme examples of human rights abuses by Israel toward totally innocent people on the wrong side of their ever expanding borders, would be summed up as war crimes if any other state had enacted them, and have bordered on the genocidal in times past.

In reality the number of human rights abuses in the occupied territories have been comparatively low. Yes, its a messy situation and it really sucks for all involved. And Israel could do more to combat abuse in some instances. But this how things are. Every occupation will result in abuses and even the most restraint and civilized military will at some point do the wrong thing. Cant be helped, doesnt make the occupation illegal, wrong, immoral or whatever and especially doesnt mean there is a better and workable (!) solution.

The leadership in Israel has been shown to be xenophobic and fascist in its approach to the issues on countless occasions, so your protestations really mean absolutely nothing. The weight of historical evidence renders your argument meaningless.

Uhuh. Historical evidence: total deaths in the Israeli Arab conflict since 1948 - 93.000 on both sides.
Total death in the Syrian Civil war: half a million by last count
the genocidal Israeli leaders sure suck at their job

More protests in Gaza.



Calling for "three days of rage"

The US State Department is warning all Americans against nonessential travel to Jerusalem, Israel, or the West Bank until further notice.

originally posted by: DarkPalSFO
a reply to: Deetermined

Can you happen to show us a copy of that map? Because there are new maps being drawn out right now for the region. But they only show Israel getting bigger.

T he HarperCollins publishing house has omitted Israel from maps in atlases that it sells to English-speaking schools in the Middle East.

Collins Bartholomew, a map-publishing company that is a subsidiary of HarperCollins, told The Tablet, an international Catholic news weekly based in London, that including Israel in its “Collins Primary Geography Atlas For The Middle East” would have been “unacceptable” to their customers in the Gulf and that leaving Israel off the maps incorporated “local preferences.”

www.jpost.com...

www.express.co.uk...

There are many more if anyone truly wants to take the time to research it. Way back when, Ahmadinejad wasn't joking when he said that they plan on wiping Israel off of the map.

Ramallah, West Bank protesters burn American flag.

oops

originally posted by: mightmight
Well of course they are. Palestinians are not Israeli citiziens, of course they get treated differently. Not unlike every other state treats foreigners different than their own citizens.

Sorry, I should have been more specific...

Israel occupies foreign land, and treats citizens of that land as if they had a right to administrate those lands, where, in fact, they do not. They have no right to police or compress, or alter, or change, or occupy lands outside the borders that are agreed upon by the international community, and yet they exercise control over territories they have no right to whatsoever, and abuse the citizens living in those areas, willy nilly. This is a fact, not a point for debate.

Of course whats special in Israels case is the ongoing occupation of former Jordanian territorries gained during the six day war in 1967. The people living there are actually under administration of the israeli military, not the israeli civil administration.

Which is utterly unacceptable of course, unjustifiable. Israels military should not administrate for any civilian population, within or without the internationally accepted borders of Israel, regardless of the geopolitical situation in any given year. That they do at all makes them an illegal occupying force, in any area they allege to control. Their presence in the regions as specified is entirely unjust and must end.

And of course this results in different treatment. Complaining about this would be like complaining about different treatment of Iraqis and US Citizens in Iraq when the US was occupying Iraq durint the las decade. It simply makes no sense.

And again, the US, at the time of its invasion and subsequent occupation of ALL nations it penetrated during the War on Terror, was behaving in an entirely immoral and, if anyone cared at the time to look into it with a will, illegal fashion. Since the war itself was an invention, being fought against the wests own proxy agents in the Middle East (the terror groups), and since the specific justification for the war in Iraq was found to be not just in error, but a fabrication, the entire campaign should be viewed as illegal, as well as every single action taken by forces allied with the US during that conflict. You are literally trying to justify one illegal action, with another illegal action. THAT does not make a damned bit of sense.

What would be apartheid? If Israel would treat Jews and Arabs in its pre-67 borders differently. This is not the case. Once you are an Israeli citizen, you enjoy the same rights, whether you are jewish, arab or whatever. Of course Israeli Arabs are generally less successfull and all that, but (while unfortunate) this is just the natural way of things. Black people in the US are generally less successfull than whites but noone sane would claim apartheid.

Well, since Israel has taken it into its head to control more territory than it has any right to, including civilian populated areas, you have to take into consideration that ANY territory it controls, in which people have less rights than those in another area, amounts to a modified version of apartheid, ESPECIALLY when the specific areas I am referring to are literally surrounded and compressed by military oppression, containing no free peoples whatsoever as an explicit and sole result of Israeli armed action against the people therein. In short, the areas their military has control over, ARE under an apartheid, because you cannot disconnect the military from the governance of Israel, except to split hairs and create technicalities, technicalities which are of no importance and do not effect the reality on the ground one iota. Thats a damned disingenuous thing to do, relying on technicalities when lives are being destroyed. You should probably stop that.

Correct. Neither Jewish or Arab Israeli citiziens get their homes bulldozed when they commit acts of terror.
Non citizen arabs living under military rule in the occupied territories get their homes bulldozed when they commit acts of terror. Clear distinction on citizenship and location, no apartheid, racism or whatever.
Personally i'm in favor of bulldozing homes of terrorists everywhere.

Absolute and complete bunkum. If you think the only people in the Israeli controlled districts who lost their homes, were launching mortars out of their kitchens, then you need to get a grip and do some actual research. I am not here to hold your hand on this, you go out and do the work for yourself. Suffice to say, you are dead wrong about this, and the only way to BE dead wrong about this, is to refuse to accept information that argues with your world view, rather than modifying your world view to fit the facts. Innocent people have lost their land and homes, FOR DECADES, without relent or cessation on the part of Israeli expansionists, who must be banished back within the borders of Israel, and not permitted to occupy land that neither they, nor the government of Israel has any legitimate claim to......

continues below...

a reply to: mightmight

...Continued from above...

Yes, people die in war. The Israeli military conducts warfare no different than other western nations. Most of the time they show even more restraint, believe it or not.

Oh sure they do. Responding by leveling entire blocks in response to an attack with a bottle rocket capable of doing less damage than a standard hand grenade, is exactly the sort of proportionality I expect from a xenophobic, tyrannical government. And another thing... when group A) has tanks and planes and choppers, and group B) has improvised weapons and sixty year old, half broken assault rifles, you cannot have a situation where these two things are at war with one another. You can only have a situation where side A) is guilty of unbelievable acts of murder, and side B) can never answer them. Its called massacre, and it is impossible for Palestine to bring that upon itself by its own hand. It was only ever possible for Israel to commit an atrocity against the people of Palestine, given the mismatch. And for the record, it was a filthy, dirty thing for Britain and America to do to the Middle East to engage in the same thing, and I have been protesting that, vigorously, since the War on Terror began.

Israel (and Egypt) blockade the Gaza strip, an actually rather small area. Blockade means, they control what goods get in. The situation for the people living there is not good (this is what you get if you vote for terrorists) but they are not starving either. You can make a living in Gaza, especially if Hamas doesnt shoot rockets at Israeli towns and cities.
The argument that the Blockade does more harm than good is irrelevant. Even if true it doesnt make it illegal.
And we dont have access to Israeli intelligence, so we cant really tell how much the blockade harms Hamas.

I am sure lobbing white phosphor into Palestine is automatically more harmful to everyone OTHER than Hamas who lives in the region too, but that does not stop Israel doing it whenever they think they can get away with it. You are trying to defend the indefensible here. Israel does not NEED to respond to the "threat" posed by Hamas, they can just weather it and suffer no casualties at all in more than fifty percent of events, but nooo, gotta kill ten thousand Palestinians for every Israeli who has ever had to apply a damned band aid as a result of a paramilitary action! Never mind the fact that Hamas is literally no threat militarily to anyone, because they are piss weak and ill trained, under geared and poorly organised. Never mind the fact that responding to that kind of threat makes Israel look weak, not strong, never mind all that, because Israel must have the right to defend itself. Bloody nonsense. Its like saying I ought to defend myself if a nine year old tries to punch me in the chin. I do that by virtue of standing too tall to be hit squarely. Its the same with Israel, but they cannot resist harming arabs for some reason.

In reality the number of human rights abuses in the occupied territories have been comparatively low. Yes, its a messy situation and it really sucks for all involved. And Israel could do more to combat abuse in some instances. But this how things are. Every occupation will result in abuses and even the most restraint and civilized military will at some point do the wrong thing. Cant be helped, doesnt make the occupation illegal, wrong, immoral or whatever and especially doesnt mean there is a better and workable (!) solution.

First of all, YES IT DOES! The occupation is illegal regardless of the treatment of people living within the controlled space, ISRAEL HAS NO RIGHT TO BE THERE, NO RIGHT TO CONTROL THE SPACE OUTSIDE ITS BORDERS, AT ALL! Have you understood the actual situation yet, or do you need further instruction? Let me make this crystal clear... Israel has an internationally recognised border. What happens outside it is no concern of theirs, and they may only defend themselves the way I want my nation to defend ITSELF, that is, by having manned border crossing points by all means, but having NO military presence outside our borders, unless there is an act of war by an actual militarised force, with uniforms, tanks, planes, choppers, a navy... in essence, a military equal.

For example, my nation should not be going to war, for ANY reason, against Afghanistan, or IN Afghanistan, and it should not have done that REGARDLESS of what terrorist groups may have existed there (and I would say this, by the way, regardless of whether or not those terror groups were paid agents of my country and America, which they were in the actual case, but is immaterial to the matter at hand). The fact that they did go to war with a frankly pathetic, and irrelevant threat, rather than using surgical means, intelligence lead, invisible and plausibly deniable, to take out whatever threats may have been present, is a stain upon the history of this country, and any country that aided and abetted what amounts to a criminal act on my nations part, and the same not only can but MUST be said of the behaviour of Israel toward Palestine.

Uhuh. Historical evidence: total deaths in the Israeli Arab conflict since 1948 - 93.000 on both sides.
Total death in the Syrian Civil war: half a million by last count
the genocidal Israeli leaders sure suck at their job

First of all, the historical evidence you are talking about, suggests that Israel has always been the aggressor and the massacre artist in every engagement with the people of Palestine. The closest there has ever been to an equality of lethality, was in the early 00s, when twice as many Palestinians lost their lives while going about their business, as Israeli troops did, while performing their illegal activities against civilian populations.

And another thing: The Syrian Civil War is a damned lie. Its the culmination of a massive proxy war, between the western backed terror groups, and Russian backed Syria, a war which the US and UK intelligence services, have been propagating by arming and supplying terrorists in the region. This should not be a shock to anyone, since that practice has been going on in various places throughout the Middle East, for DECADES, and is the ONLY reason ISIS currently exist, and was the only reason that Osama Bin Laden was able to organise a strike against America. Again, attempting to justify one illegal act, by throwing up examples of others, does not advance your case one bit, and you need to stop doing it!

a reply to: TrueBrit

It looks to me that it's you who 'doesn't research'.

originally posted by: TrueBrit


Sorry, I should have been more specific...

Israel occupies foreign land, and treats citizens of that land as if they had a right to administrate those lands, where, in fact, they do not. They have no right to police or compress, or alter, or change, or occupy lands outside the borders that are agreed upon by the international community, and yet they exercise control over territories they have no right to whatsoever, and abuse the citizens living in those areas, willy nilly. This is a fact, not a point for debate.

Well, actually this is entirely up for debate and unfortunately your explanation is completely wrong. In fact, the opposite is true. The occupation is not only legal, Israel is actually required to continue the occupation until a lasting agreement with all relevant parties is signed.

Please check out the orignialUN Resolution 242 which was adopted by the Un Security Council on 22 November 1967:
unispal.un.org...

[…] Affirms that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force; […]

The quoted part sates the framework in which a Israeli withdrawal from territories (note: doesnt even says all territories) should (note: not even an requirement, just a suggestion) happen: To establish a just and lasting peace in the Middle East.

There is no requirement to immediately end the occupation, in fact, this resoultion enshrines the occupation until an grand agreement could be worked out. Notice also, it not only required the end of the occupation, it also required the general end of hostilies and secure borders for every state, including Israel. Obviously this hasnt happened yet and therefore the occupation continues.

Now, we can of course go through the dozen or so relevant subsequent UN Resolutions on the matter and will no doubt end up debating settlements and such (which are a separate issue), but the fact remains, the occupation itself is not illegal, has never been established as such and Israel would actually violate existing UN resolutions if it just left the territories without an agreement with relevant parties.

Anyway, as the occupying power Israel has certain rights and obligations, including to administrate those lands and ist people. We can argue about what this means in detail (and wont come to a consensus since international law is very murky in this case to say the least) but the mere fact, the they rule over the people in the West Bank is not problematic at all.

Let me know if you want me to address some other specific point, i dont plan on answering your entire diatribe. I doubt i'd change your opinion on this in anyway

now the war on syria is running to an end the war-lords needs new playgrounds for there genocide....!

Let's not forget everything John Kerry had to say last year about this situation either....(from transcript)...

This sense of hopelessness among Israelis is exacerbated by the continuing violence, terrorist attacks against civilians and incitements which are destroying belief in the possibility of peace. Let me say it again, there is absolutely no justification for terrorism and there never will be. And the most recent wave of Palestinian violence has included hundreds of terrorist attacks in the past year including stabbings, shootings, vehicular attacks and bombings. Many by individuals who have been radicalized by social media. Yet the murders of innocence are still glorified on (inaudible) websites, including showing attackers next to Palestinian leaders following attacks.

KERRY: And despite statements by President Abbas and his party’s leaders, making clear their opposition of violence, too often they send a different message by failing to condemn specific terrorist attacks and naming public square, streets and schools after terrorists.

President Obama and I have made it clear to the Palestinian leadership countless times, publicly and privately, that all incitements to violence must stop. We have consistently condemned violence and terrorism and even condemned the Palestinian leadership for not condemning it. Far too often the Palestinians have pursued efforts to delegitimize Israel in international forum. We have strongly opposed these initiatives, including the recent holy unbalanced and inflammatory UNESCO resolution regarding Jerusalem.

Hamas and other radical factions are responsible for the most explicit forms of incitement to violence. And many of the images they use are truly appalling and they are willing to kill innocents in Israel and put the people of Gaza at risk in order to advance that agenda. Compounding this, the humanitarian situation in Gaza exacerbated by the closings of the crossings is dire.

Gaza is home to one of the world densest concentrations of people. Enduring extreme hardships with few opportunities, 1.3 million people out of Gaza’s population of 1.8 million are in need of daily assistance, food and shelter. Most have electricity less than half the time and only five percent of the water is safe to drink. And yet, despite the urgency of these needs, Hamas and other militant groups continue to rearm and to vert reconstruction materials to build tunnels, threatening more attacks on Israeli civilians that no government can tolerate.

time.com...

a reply to: mightmight

It doesn't matter what's true and what's not true when it comes to Politics and Israel. People see only what they want to see. The facts doesn't make any difference what-so-ever.

Personally, I feel that it's a bout time that Israel is recognized with Jerusalem as it's capital. Who cares what the rest of the world wants for Isreal. Funny how they all gang up on Israel and claim... "It's NOT your country". The hell with what the rest of the world says. It's not THEIR country.

I also agree with what one of the other responders said about this needed to happen for peace. If there ever WAS going to be peace, this is the way to do it. Before it was always talking back and forth and nothing was ever done. No action, just fighting. Someone is finally laying the hard reality down that can't be denied. Now something either needs be done to counter it or accept it. Now the process can truly go forward. I'm sure everyone is sick and tired of just talking about it with never a resolution.

Now... Let's kick back and see what happens after 7 and a half years

a reply to: StallionDuck

Eerily enough, as I say "Now... Let's kick back and see what happens after 7 and a half years"... I look over at a link to see what's happening there live. And....

This happens:

-Russia recognized Jerusalem earlier this year:
www.timesofisrael.com...

-are you familiar with Noahide U.S. Public Law 102-14?

it is an American federal law which states that the “Seven Noahide Laws” (Laws from the Jewish Babylonian Talmud) are the principle on which the United States was founded, and that it is the responsibility of America to transmit these “ethical values” to future generation both in the U.S. and World.

LINK: stopnoahidelaw.blogspot.com.es...

Also Some Hurricane Harvey victims could not recieve aid unless they agreed to "not boycott Israel", i thought that was weird.

LINK: www.houstonpress.com...