Shall we start a new community out in the forest?

originally posted by: dashen
i lived in the woods of eastern PA with a bunch of hairy hippies for a summer.
the one mountain lady who owns the land is a pretty 30 something redhead who lives in a shack in the woods with her dog and shotgun all winter.
the only running water is a creek fifty feet from the shack.
its a magical place

Beautiful scene. But winter is harsh in those areas.
Good on her for living out there, and welcoming others to share.
That was surely an enriching experience for you.
Do you think you could do it again?

Most people my age are not interested in roughing-it, other than accepting a 4-star hotel instead of a 5.

a reply to: Nothin

Heck ya id do it again.
I go native pretty quick when I get out in the wilderness

originally posted by: Plotus
libertyforlife.com...

looks like Nevada is the place....

Not sure if those titles are still available, from first glance. Very interesting link. Thanks!

Have you ever looked at sovereign communities, or micronations before?

a reply to: Nothin

Well, I like to think its cool too, but I would think that. You are right that there are many approaches, were you looking to explore them all?

My overall point was that what is "possible" is entirely dependent on the people involved, even as a thought experiment.

Many, if not most, that are interested in this sort of thing hold the opinion that nature and technology are enemies. So, there would have to be some sort of aligned vision of participants.

Generally, the more primitive you go, the more life becomes about survival. Maybe its just me, and my health, but it doesn't hold much appeal.

The more technology is involved, the more the group can move from sheer survival to growth and advancement.

I think many more would be interested in the concept in the latter approach, or even just one that at least includes basic modern amenities like indoor plumbing.

I live in the woods, I have too many neighbors already. I should have bought a lot bigger chunk of land.

I do get along with my neighbors though, they aren't too bad. I had a bad one but he never built a house, he sold it to someone who did and they are good neighbors. Hopefully nobody sells their houses to a jerk.

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: Nothin

Well, I like to think its cool too, but I would think that. You are right that there are many approaches, were you looking to explore them all?

My overall point was that what is "possible" is entirely dependent on the people involved, even as a thought experiment.

Many, if not most, that are interested in this sort of thing hold the opinion that nature and technology are enemies. So, there would have to be some sort of aligned vision of participants.

Generally, the more primitive you go, the more life becomes about survival. Maybe its just me, and my health, but it doesn't hold much appeal.

The more technology is involved, the more the group can move from sheer survival to growth and advancement.

I think many more would be interested in the concept in the latter approach, or even just one that at least includes basic modern amenities like indoor plumbing.

The advantages of technology are alluring, you're right.
Another way to differentiate the scenarios, is by original budget, and supposed income, if any.
Probably the stronger one is financially, the less they might need to rough it.
Depends on where they want to install themselves, and the facility of transportation.

originally posted by: rickymouse
I live in the woods, I have too many neighbors already. I should have bought a lot bigger chunk of land.

I do get along with my neighbors though, they aren't too bad. I had a bad one but he never built a house, he sold it to someone who did and they are good neighbors. Hopefully nobody sells their houses to a jerk.

Good on you for living in the woods. Living the dream!
Have also seen previously that you have interest in natural medicine and remedies.
Am sure you are a wonderful neighbor.

Am thinking 4 acres as a minimum, with the possibility for adjoining land ideally.

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: Nothin
What if we had no rules, and just let natural justice take care of itself?

Have you ever read the novel "Lord of the Flies"? (William Golding)

Many many years ago.
The drama made for a good novel, but perhaps not relative to how a group of adults would act.
Can we not do better?

Ummm...dude...we would be fighting over just the women...

I know I would...

I envision cage style MMA...

And that's just for boredom relief...



YouSir

a reply to: Nothin

I was interested in doing this until I read these:

What if we had no rules, and just let natural justice take care of itself?

Yeah: our beloved hot-showers would not be available, for at least a good while.
No Starbucks neither

No hot water kind of killed it for me TBH... But, I have gone searching anyways and found an article that shows some essential survival skills that we've lost from our ancient ancestors. I would think these would be needed before you go living in the wild:

Tracking and Hunting Animals

“Tracking animals is a significant skill that likely developed very early in our history as we developed greater cognitive abilities and became more reliant on animal fats and proteins to feed our big brains,” says Janulis.

Knowing What to Eat and How to Medicate

Janulis says that the knowledge of edible and medicinal foods would have been passed on over many generations, and that this detailed knowledge is one of the biggest losses to the world in terms of forgotten survival skills.

Navigational Skills

There’s no question that our early ancestors travelled great distances without the benefit of highly detailed maps or GPS. Archaeologists can get a sense of how far these people traveled from their shelter sites by tracing the sources of the stone used to craft their tools. By the Middle Paleolithic era, humans were capable of travelling or trading within hundreds of miles from the locations where they were living.

Making Clothes from Scratch

Clothes varied from region to region depending on the climate and the resources available. The methods used for clothing manufacture were only limited by the properties of the materials being used, and the creativity of the manufacturer.

Group Survival

Janulis says the biggest lost skill for survival is not any one technique or prehistoric craft, but instead the loss of culturally and generationally developed subsistence patterns specific to an environment. ...

Good luck to you all! And much hope for success!

blend

Form a large group of like minded people you can trust (good luck with that) then move them all into a small unincorporated village in the sticks. Have enough people to establish a political majority to change the local laws to create the type of community you wish to live in.

Build a self sustaining local economy outside of most government controls. The Amish model is one to look at, create a religion to get not for profit status that generates enough revenue to pay the bills outside of your closed economic system. The lifestyle and religious aspect should keep out most undesirable types from moving in. Just remember, most all utopian communities fall apart after a short while and disband.

Start with lots of research, capital funding and detailed plans for every aspect of your community before getting started. The politics would likely cause it to implode in short order, so concentrate on that aspect.

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: rickymouse
I live in the woods, I have too many neighbors already. I should have bought a lot bigger chunk of land.

I do get along with my neighbors though, they aren't too bad. I had a bad one but he never built a house, he sold it to someone who did and they are good neighbors. Hopefully nobody sells their houses to a jerk.

Good on you for living in the woods. Living the dream!
Have also seen previously that you have interest in natural medicine and remedies.
Am sure you are a wonderful neighbor.

Am thinking 4 acres as a minimum, with the possibility for adjoining land ideally.

We have around five and a half acres. I wish I would have bought the land behind us a while back, they wanted nine grand for about four and a half acres, that was a little high for landlocked land at the time.

I am studying natural medicines found in our area and also the properties of food. To do this properly I have to study how pharmaceuticals work and backwards hack them back to nature. By doing this I find that a lot of the old wives tales about things are correct. But there are a lot that are just BS, some of the old natural remedies may kill the disease but they can cause problems on people who cannot detox them. For me, many of the natural remedies of northern europe are appropriate and from lower down, those chemistries are problematic. I can eat a little Italian food, but a diet full of true Italian food would probably send me to a doctor and specialists.

The whole thing they are trying to do about the nutrition guidelines and what they tell us to eat is wrong. Maybe for someone who comes from Southern Europe it is fine, but people who had short seasonal greens growing should eat greens mostly in the summer when in season. They were canning veggies for a while in Northern Europe and also fermenting or freezing things. Potatoes, carrots, and rutabaga and onions were a staple for a long time. Cereal grains like Rye and barley were also a staple but they started turning that into beer and a lot of people got messed up from the opiate peptides in wheat. Wheat is a calming food, that is why they chose it long ago to dope the societies. A moderate amount is good, too much in the diet can be a problem.

They have been doping people up to calm them for thousands of years. The trouble is that they have promoted too much of it and people are getting sick. The ones suffering are the naturally calm people, they listen and want to follow along with society. The people who like to disrupt things do not eat this kind of food, it dampens their energy. So they have designed pills to supply this doping chemistry to those who need it, but the problem is the symptoms of overdoping can often be the same as not enough, people get cranky when they are sick too from too much of this chemistry.

I know some of the problems in our society but I have no clue how to fix the problem, it is way complex and this doping chemistry has infiltrated our food chemistry so much in prepared foods. Also they tell people to eat these calming foods, they show scientific evidence of the good part of a complex food chemistry and ignore the bad effects...always exploiting the calming foods promotion to the public. Of course, they do not say it is calming, they do not want us to know what they are doing. We do need to eat this calming chemistry to remain civil, the problem comes with mixing different types and also overindulging in the chemistry. Once we eat it for a while, we boost enzymes to break it down and if we do not get the chemistry for even a day, we get anxious and angry. The enzymes will break down too much. Moderation is the clue, people are getting addicted to some of this stuff because of excess enzyme production from overindulgance.

I could go on for hours, the only way to correct the problem properly is to adjust the diet to fix the problem or take a pill and continue eating what they promote as healthy.

originally posted by: YouSir

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: Nothin
What if we had no rules, and just let natural justice take care of itself?

Have you ever read the novel "Lord of the Flies"? (William Golding)

Many many years ago.
The drama made for a good novel, but perhaps not relative to how a group of adults would act.
Can we not do better?

Ummm...dude...we would be fighting over just the women...

I know I would...

I envision cage style MMA...

And that's just for boredom relief...

YouSir

Yeah.... You're just the kind we need.
Meet us over there: (Points west, heads east).

a reply to: blend57

Thanks for the link.
It would be a bit Spartan, and it seems most of us have gotten used to our luxuries, in just a few short years.
Humanity has lived rough for thousands of years.
A jump in the lake, or a little warmed water from the stove, is fine for daily washing.
A couple of days of gunk really keeps the flies away though...

originally posted by: MichiganSwampBuck
Form a large group of like minded people you can trust (good luck with that) then move them all into a small unincorporated village in the sticks. Have enough people to establish a political majority to change the local laws to create the type of community you wish to live in.

Build a self sustaining local economy outside of most government controls. The Amish model is one to look at, create a religion to get not for profit status that generates enough revenue to pay the bills outside of your closed economic system. The lifestyle and religious aspect should keep out most undesirable types from moving in. Just remember, most all utopian communities fall apart after a short while and disband.

Start with lots of research, capital funding and detailed plans for every aspect of your community before getting started. The politics would likely cause it to implode in short order, so concentrate on that aspect.

Lot's of good common-sense advice there.
Have seen you write about the Northern Michigan woodlands on here before.
Some of the ideas depend on whether one is living on the fringes of society, or trying to evade it totally.

But if a small community is the goal, then a few political ideas are intriguing:

1- Ubuntu
2- Randomly selected management groups of 4 or 8 citizens, changes every year.
3- Central committee.

a reply to: Nothin

In that vein of things, could use blockchain technology.

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: Nothin

In that vein of things, could use blockchain technology.

Was thinking more about chain-blocks to move large logs.

a reply to: rickymouse

You're right about the food guides being decades out-of-date, and irrelevant to ideal health.
Is the opiate effect of wheat, stronger on some body-types?

Can you recommend and books on natural healing local herbs?

originally posted by: Nothin
a reply to: rickymouse

You're right about the food guides being decades out-of-date, and irrelevant to ideal health.
Is the opiate effect of wheat, stronger on some body-types?

Can you recommend and books on natural healing local herbs?

People make enzymes at certain rates, some make a lot some make a little. It would be an enzyme that causes this chemistry to be utilized and an enzyme that causes it to be detoxed and ushered out of the body. Enzymes are proteins usually in our body, formed by the genes that form proteins. How these genes are triggered to make a certain protein is based on chemistry in the body plus epigenetic markers that tell the protein coding enzymes to start making a protein. Everything is related when you talk about the DNA. They used to just consider the part of the protein making genes as important and that was far from a real philosophy. They now know there is a relationship from the other snps that regulate the expression of the protein making genes. No junk DNA exists, they are a complex and personal designed set of instructions on how to deal with the environment, including diet.

I do not think blood type has any relationship to wheat specifically, it would have a relationship to agglutination of the blood in relation to food chemistry though. A type A person can get agglutination problems from eating beef, but a little onion or garlic with it will help to deter that, or even a baby aspirin. I am type A and if I do eat a lot of bread, it can cause some agglutination of blood cells because of the way the antigens are held on the blood cells or in the plasma. Now, this does not have anything to do with the opiate peptides contained in the foods, it has to do with the glue in gluten, it sticks cells together.

Milk has some casomorphin in it which can be more of a problem. A specific enzyme breaks that down, the making of that enzyme is genetic specific, you can be a good producer, an average producer, or a poor producer. Independent of that, if you eat salmon or eat things made with lactobaccili, like yogurt, it can stop the production of the enzyme that breaks the morphine down. This will promote the calming longer. They contain a inhibitor of the enzyme and somehow lower the production of it so you stay high longer. Regular opiate peptides take a different enzyme, and there is probably some chemistry that inhibits those too but I did not research that as of yet. Different foods can inhibit or promote various enzyme production, that is a very big area to research. I wish I could find a database on that somewhere. Wheat opiate peptides are much stronger than those of Oats, they are also different than those in Rye or Barley. You may be able to eat Rye bread while you cannot eat white bread. Gluten intolerance is actually a scape goat for a lot of different problems with proper enzyme production. They lump everything together too much, I would say they should be more specific.

a reply to: rickymouse

OKI: so smoked-salmon and cream-cheese, on bagels, for breakfast then?

We will need a fish-trap; a smoker; goats; cheese-making tools; and a bread-oven.

(PS: Pulling your post in-line with the OP, or just a lame comedic attempt?)

originally posted by: Nothin
a reply to: rickymouse

OKI: so smoked-salmon and cream-cheese, on bagels, for breakfast then?

We will need a fish-trap; a smoker; goats; cheese-making tools; and a bread-oven.

(PS: Pulling your post in-line with the OP, or just a lame comedic attempt?)

I like smoked fish, I have a smoker, but use it as a grill and for smoking meats occasionally. We bought a little turkey and it is in the deepfreezer, I plan on smoking it this winter. I don't have a big enough container to brine a big turkey, so I will smoke that little turkey along with maybe some sliced beef to make Jerky. The smoker is pretty big and looks like a grill with a smoke box on the side, we use that lower one sometimes for a small BBQ and it holds the fire and smoking chips for smoking in the big side.

You need a separate smoker dedicated for smoking fish, it has an odor you do not want in other meats. I learned that over fifty years ago from my uncle who smoked meats, he had two big smokers, one for fish and one for anything else. If you wanted to smoke veggies, that takes a third smoker from what I hear. I have only known one person who smoked veggies, I had some of his smoked artichokes and they were tasty.

I know how to smoke fish, I did plenty of it when I was young. But the price of smoked fish is not much higher than fresh fish in the store and I do not fish much anymore so I do not have a pile of extra fish to smoke. When I do go fishing, I usually go down to some creeks and catch some trout. The speckies are way better fried than smoked. I used to get fish from an Indian commercial fisherman I know, a buck fifty a pound. But sadly he had a heart attack and died, I do not know any Indian fisherman here now, there is one sixty miles away, I can go see him I suppose and get fish. I try to get about twenty pounds of whitefish in the freezer for winter, but there is none now in the freezer. We go out once a month to an all you can eat fish fry that has salmon, trout, and Whitefish. I eat about two to three pounds when I go. The wife is lucky to eat a pound, I finish off her scraps too, I hate wasting fish.

We have a good supply of meats and veggies and berries in the freezer in the winter, I have two big upright freezers running all year round and a third to take the overload for a month after getting our half a cow. The third one now just has a turkey in it and miscellaneous meats in it, after thanksgiving that will be shut down and cleaned for a spare incase a freezer quits on us. I learned never to trust new stuff, the old freezer is twenty five years old and runs great but is kind of an energy hog, always has been but our cost of electricity has doubled over the last ten years.

The thing about being prepared, you cannot be prepared for everything, we have risk of power outages here that last a week or so, but the risk of forest fires is there when you live out in the woods. You cannot prepare for a forest fire, except to have things that are important ready to go and to have money in the bank to stay at a motel. I have a building in town we can move some of our stuff to if one is on the way. But you need to have time, that is important, stuff that can't be replaced needs to be what you take. Along with the cats and maybe the goldfish. Most of the stuff that is important to us has little real value, I would definitely take my guns, they have been handed down from my father and uncle.

We already have a small community in the forest here, I do not need to start one. I hope I never have to move back to the city, it is nice talking to the deer as we throw out some veggies for them.