Is It Now Considered “Sexual Misconduct” to Ask For Sex?

originally posted by: Sheye

originally posted by: CraftBuilder
I've solved this entire problem for myself. I simply don't interact with women (especially American/Canadian women) at all on a social level anymore and professionally as little as absolutely required. Its just not worth the risk of accusation.I don't talk to them. I divert my view the moment there is a possibility that looking in their general direction might be interpreted as looking at them. I huddle in my personal space waiting patiently for the day that all men's problems are solved by realistic, AI based fem bots hitting the market. It's too bad, such a loss. Before this culture of self-centric, rambitious, trigger happy women, they were the graceful, elegant, compassionate part of our society that kept us men from spiraling into the abyss.

So you can't simply have an intelligent conversation with a woman without letting your hormones take over, or fear of that happening. You have obviously never learned how to be a gentleman and converse in appropriate ways or you would not have this irrational fear of females.

Women deeply respect men who know where to draw the line with inappropriate conversation , yet manage to have enlightening , intelligent exchange of thoughts and ideas. Thank you to those gentlemen out there. You are appreciated more than you may realize.

On the contrary - Women seek out interaction with me all the time. But thanks for bashing me off the bat without knowing me. Its a perfect example. What do my hormones have to do with anything I just mentioned? Nice straw-man argument.

a reply to: Caver78

Louis CK was on tour with some lesser known female comics. Professionally speaking he had the upper hand in a weird way, so him asking them can be seen as a sort of workplace harassment cause there was the possibility if they said no or raised a stink they could have been dropped from the tour.

Thank you! I have been trying to understand his apology and it made no sense to me, because it read like "I was wrong to approach these women because they liked me." If there was a professional relationship where he had retaliatory power over them, then it makes sense they would feel uncomfortable saying no.

More worrisome now, to me anyway, is the original question in the OP. Since the apology was accepted as addressing a form of bad behavior without that one point being clarified, I too am wondering where this line is that cannot be crossed. I think we are moving toward a point in time where no one is safe from having their life ruined for no other reason than being born male.

Sexual harassment, and moreso molestation, is a despicable act that should not be tolerated. But so is the destruction of a life for political/financial/egotistical gain only.

And so is the applause of such a deed.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: CraftBuilder

originally posted by: Sheye

originally posted by: CraftBuilder
I've solved this entire problem for myself. I simply don't interact with women (especially American/Canadian women) at all on a social level anymore and professionally as little as absolutely required. Its just not worth the risk of accusation.I don't talk to them. I divert my view the moment there is a possibility that looking in their general direction might be interpreted as looking at them. I huddle in my personal space waiting patiently for the day that all men's problems are solved by realistic, AI based fem bots hitting the market. It's too bad, such a loss. Before this culture of self-centric, rambitious, trigger happy women, they were the graceful, elegant, compassionate part of our society that kept us men from spiraling into the abyss.

So you can't simply have an intelligent conversation with a woman without letting your hormones take over, or fear of that happening. You have obviously never learned how to be a gentleman and converse in appropriate ways or you would not have this irrational fear of females.

Women deeply respect men who know where to draw the line with inappropriate conversation , yet manage to have enlightening , intelligent exchange of thoughts and ideas. Thank you to those gentlemen out there. You are appreciated more than you may realize.

On the contrary - Women seek out interaction with me all the time. But thanks for bashing me off the bat without knowing me. Its a perfect example.

My apologies ... I don't think I fully understood the whole meaning of your post, and reacted to the statements about you never talking to a woman again. Your choice... your reasons.

I still have deep respect for men , especially in social settings who don't manage to steer the conversation towrds sex. Women can be equally as frustrating in this regard.

a reply to: melatonin

The moment the word "Mansplain" is used by anyone in a debate that person should be removed from said debate. The reasoning is, simply because if used without sarcasm it is an attempt to shut down any comeback a man might have as just another man explaining something to a woman (much in the same way a certain group of black politicians and tv pundits have started to scream "But you don't understand because you haven't lived as anything other than white" they too should be removed.

a reply to: Metallicus

Had the very same conversation with a group of people at work and was told by most of the women that anything that is touching without consent and out right disgusting words. I was told that most women won't scream "Assault" if told they look attractive, that they are wearing something very nice or pretty (their words) or being asked out on a date or offered a meal etc. but saying that I'm thinking of taking some advice from the old ages and using those dating cards that you hand to the person you fancy, they usually said things like "May I walk you home" "May I have the pleasure of buying you dinner" and "Would you like to dive behind those bushes and do the side ways dance?" (okay the last one isn't real but I thought it was funny).

Here is the advice I would give: Don't touch unless given permission. Don't say anything to a woman/man (or one of those made up gender things cis etc.) that you wouldn't want said to your mother, sister or daughter (Father, Brother, Son) and you're fine unless you come across a hardcore feminist, in which case RUN because it seems even opening the door for them is a stamp on them.

Rocket science.

Who knew it could be so complicated ?

a reply to: TheRedneck

From reading the comments here and ALL the discussions I've been stuck in including ANOTHER mandatory work training on sexual harassment the "theme" seems to be,
NOT AT WORK EVER!!!!!
If someone needs to be a jack wagon it has to at the very least be off the time clock.

Which is something everyone knew before all the garbage came out in the wash in the media. IIRC it was Dustin Hoffman who recently apologized for grabbing a butt like 17 years ago? The guys were bravely discussing it at work an the consensus was "Yeah he was wrong, but at this point you have to apologize cause you probably don't honestly remember if you did it or not!!!"

Some of us "Olders" kept chatting an not a one of us, me included, remember every bone-headed thing we've done at a party or concert. In a recounting of a few things we're all really glad we aren't celebs right now. Glass houses an all that.

a reply to: Caver78

You might not remember it, but your victims probably do. All that says is that you need way more self control in your life if you have so many incidents like this that you can't even remember them.

originally posted by: Dwoodward85
a reply to: melatonin

The moment the word "Mansplain" is used by anyone in a debate that person should be removed from said debate. The reasoning is, simply because if used without sarcasm it is an attempt to shut down any comeback a man might have as just another man explaining something to a woman (much in the same way a certain group of black politicians and tv pundits have started to scream "But you don't understand because you haven't lived as anything other than white" they too should be removed.

Jeez, so sensitive. Perhaps just replace with 'explain' if it hurts your feelings, lol.

The OP was clearly attempting to conflate the minefield of awkward fumbling everyday flirtation with Louis CKs abusive predatory behaviour. The number of people in this thread who have blindly followed their lead is indicative of the underlying problem.

"When do men need to apply to city hall to get a sex pass? Huehuehue"

If you really want to make something useful of this thread maybe ask why those on the end of his behaviour (and many other recent cases - women and men) have felt the need to maintain silence for so long? Then look around at the minimisation and invalidation of the experiences of those who suffer such violations.

Or maybe just cast blame at feminsists, SJWs, virtue signalling, identity politics or whatever diversion is the flavour of the week (:

originally posted by: Painterz
As a simple rule of thumb.


Never say something to a woman that you wouldn't feel comfortable hearing from an inmate in a prison shower block.


Follow this simple rule, and you will be fine.

Wow. That sums it up nicely. Golden Rule approach with an appropriate analogy.

Though some might be more comfortable with things than others...

When the news of Kevin Spacey 1st came out, I found myself, for a min. , somewhat defending him in my mind.....my logic basically was that, "hey drunk 20 yr old's hit on teenagers and teenagers are somewhat complicit when they put themselves in adult situations" .....after finding out more facts about KS, I now believe he crossed " The Line " and is a depraved man.

I'm still left with uncomfortable questions though about WHAT constitutes sexual harassment ? Like EVERY woman I've ever known, I have experienced it all my life.....maybe so much that if I really ever dwelled on it, I would have to hate a lot of men I don't want to hate....why didn't I blow these guys lives up ? In several cases I could have done just that, but for whatever reason, the collateral damage just didn't seem worth it...IDK....I was never raped, but people close to me have been, it's heart wrenching to see the trauma that causes them.

I guess the best answer I can come up with, is that as long as saying NO was enough to stop the unwanted behavior, it was done for me. I didn't see any reason to ruin careers or families, but I do wonder if that was always the "right" thing to do ?

I appreciate all the responses.

I am reading everything and learning from your posts.

Thank you.

a reply to: Kettu

Well said.

My boyfriend summed it up pretty nicely the other day (accidentally). I was telling him that he gets hit on as much as I do and he said "No, when I get hit on by chicks, they hit on me; when you get hit on, guys aren't 'hitting' on you; they are negotiating".

That sent chills up my spine and I haven't viewed a barroom chat with a guy the same way since.

Is It Now Considered “Sexual Misconduct” to Ask For Sex?
------------------------

My answer is "The pendulum swings".

It is currently in the extreme position, but will eventually settle back to a middle ground.

I am 71. In "my day" it was something expected you just put up with because you had no options. "Boys will be boys", is what you were told if you did say anything.

It is something that needed to be addressed.

However, I have no issue with a polite "would you be interested".

We are sexual beings. It is really "iffy" IMO what constitutes crossing the line. I think Rude/Crass remarks like "you have a hot ass" is pushing it.

a reply to: RomeByFire

I saw the joy of sex one. That really was quite the moment

originally posted by: Caver78
a reply to: Metallicus

Louis CK was on tour with some lesser known female comics. Professionally speaking he had the upper hand in a weird way, so him asking them can be seen as a sort of workplace harassment cause there was the possibility if they said no or raised a stink they could have been dropped from the tour.

As I thought about it, there's a pretty big ICK factor to the guy just asking for sex versus the typical dinner and a movie social convention. In reality if all he needs a chick there for is to watch, all here's a snap-on poster from 1970 an have at it! Defying social mores and treating someone as an object that blatantly, rightly or wrongly is going to garner some backlash.

Plus there was the whole Louis CK was married with a expectant wife an a little kid at home.
Not cool.

The pendulum swings both ways an for many decades it's been OK for guys to wield power in the workplace by being grabby, inappropriate and demeaning. Now it's swinging the other way and typically there's a LOT of pent up frustration behind it. It'll level out, but right now it's time for some venting.

Um, this is a flawed argument. It's like when people argue against prostitution. You pay for sex, but when you wine and dine, you're just paying for sex. How is dinner and a movie somehow more acceptable than just giving the woman the money for her dinner and a movie?

The argument is 100% semantics. So your argument is if you try to have sex with someone you happen to be working along side of, that you should lose your job and your source of income and be shamed publicly for it? After school, 99.9% of people meet their lovers at work, a bar, or a club. That's where you meet people.

Jesus.

You can't just walk up to strangers in the grocery, that's infinitely more creepy.

Whether or not you think it's not cool for him to have done this because he has a wife, that's totally subjective. Monogamy isn't natural IMO, it's a weak 20th century social construct and pretty much nobody follows it anyway, they all just hope they don't get caught. Almost everyone cheats, and almost every marriage fails, and of all the marriages that fail, the most common cause is cheating, because everyone is a cheater -- it's actually NORMAL. When are we going to catch up to the idea that because you chose someone as a life partner, that you don't own them, nor their sexual desires. That's actually sociopathic.

Women need to send stronger messages to men who don't understand gentle or weakly-stated "no-s". If a woman can't make it totally clear early on in the flirtatious stage, the male may think all she needs is a little "priming". And let's face it ladies, sometimes that leads to a consensual encounter.

For the men like Weinstein and Spacey, Louis C.K., and others who seem to ignore gentle no-s and even stronger no-s, they need to suffer the consequences. Looks like that is what is happening

Rules are changing, I guess....for women and men.

Women, you need to be firm with your disapproval, and if it results in punishment by losing an opportunity, sound off loudly and clearly AND timely to the right people.

Men? I don't know. You're going to have to learn a different "language". Maybe what your father taught you was okay, is not really okay in today's environment. What you saw in the movies, on TV, and heard in your music is no longer okay.

Could this song even get on the charts today? Probably not.

a reply to: MountainLaurel

The thing with Spacey is -- I've been reading about his behavior for years.

His behavior was one of those "open secrets".

I think that's why he got hit swift & hard (cancellations, etc) -- because the insiders already know it's true.

Um, this is a flawed argument. It's like when people argue against prostitution. You pay for sex, but when you wine and dine, you're just paying for sex. How is dinner and a movie somehow more acceptable than just giving the woman the money for her dinner and a movie?

a reply to: SRPrime


When you wine and dine you are paying to get to know someone , in hopes you may have a real connection. It does not mean you are going to get laid . Some may hope for this, but shame on those who expect it.

I find it very disconcerting that men feel they are " owed " sex because of the expenses of a date. Save your money for a hooker if that is what you are ultimately aiming for.