Why the Dossier may be the most serious political scandal the US has ever seen.

I just want to add that we have an opiod epidemic that did not ever exist before Trump.

We really should be looking at that since that's all that is on the news.

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Wardaddy454

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Grambler

I'm still waiting for some (any) avowed ATS leftist to say that if Hillary did anything wrong, she should be punished.

If Hillary did anything she should be punished!

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to see the right wingers here say that whatever Hillary did doesn't subtract from what Trump might have done..

I'll wait.

Fail.

I've been on record for months saying that if Trump is guilty, fry his butt.

But it is nice for a leftist to actually say that they want Hillary punished if she did anything wrong.

Are you a right winger? You constantly call yourself a "classic liberal", but you assume I'm talking about you when I say "right winger"...

Hmmmm.

The problem I see is that the left is so immersed in identity politics, that to condemn Hillary is paramount to condemning themselves, hence a level of irrationality often exists.

Funny, I've condemned Hillary on several occasions here, as have more than a few other left leaning posters.

What I haven't seen is anyone in the Trump camp say the same about Trumps Russian involvement. When it comes to Trump, it's just a made up liberal-media conspiracy. And if it did happen, Obama did it worse..

Only because if "Drumpf" is so dumb, it shouldn't be too hard to find evidence. If he did, then yes. But I'm not holding my breath for another 10 months.

Why do you think we're seeing all these hyperbolic news stories and threads, filled with nothing but assumptions and zero evidence of anything?

Distraction. Nothing more. I think a lot of people in our government are privy to a lot of facts we don't have. Obviously the Trump people are afraid of something right now, which is why the Trump-propaganda machine is currently working at full speed.

And as someone familiar with investigations, an investigation doesn't grind on for almost a year without any results. Mueller had to show some kind of evidence to get the funding approved for his last round of high priced lawyers he hired to help him on the case.

The fact that it's taking so long is obviously starting to unnerve the Trump camp. As it should. While Trump may be an idiot, the people he surrounds himself with aren't.

Its humorous to see posts like this.

I outlined all sort of evidence in the OP, and people just say "This is a distraction there is no evidence"

I am sorry my post doesnt deal with Pokemon or peeing hookers, perhaps that would have then met your threshold for a story worth discussing.

a reply to: Grambler

Obviously they're still going to push on with this 'it has to be Trump's fault' sideshow.

The only way to nail them to the wall is by putting it into the bigger picture patterns perspective.

And that's the last thing they the DNC the MSM their shills and their parrots want. You play their game and stick to the news cycle and they 'win' even if they lose because this dossier thing was merely the climax in a long drawn out blood & guts pattern stemming from Hillary arming Al Qaeda to overthrow Assad.

The pattern the dossier is a part of is the last thing they want everyone to focus on. It always was.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: Grambler

People here have been asking about the fisa warrants since flynn had to resign.
How did anyone know at that time that flynn had lied?

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Grambler

I'm still waiting for some (any) avowed ATS leftist to say that if Hillary did anything wrong, she should be punished.

You were either drunk or not paying attention. I called her to task during her campaign and didn't vote for her.

and besides I'm only a halfassed leftist.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Why do you like Assad?

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: AboveBoard

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: AboveBoard

Your definition of "foreign agent" is not technically correct. 

It is technically correct.
He is a British citizen.
Not a US citizen.
Either foreign or domestic when it comes to matter of state.
He is foreign and was acting as an agent when he worked on the dossier.

Was he acting on behalf of the Queen or Prime Minister or Parliament?

So you would hold the same standard to rudsians?

As long as they are not currently government employees, there was no problem with anyone from either campaign working with them.

The Russians in the TrumpRussia scandal are connected to the Kremlin as-in work with or for Putin's will.

That is the point of it.

Somebody being a "foreigner" hired as a detective to dig up dirt (from Great Britain, no less, not an enemy nation) is NOT the same as someone meeting with a member Trump Campaign and acting as a line of communication with Putin. Steele was hired by an American company. The people paying for the dirt may not have even known what source Fusion GPS was using for this, only that they had some helpful connections.

If you think they are the same thing, then you have no idea what you are looking at or talking about, and I would think far more highly of you than that. Please step back and look at this again.

"Foreigner doing a job using foreign contacts" isn't equal to someone "acting on behalf of a foreign government."

__________
ETA: Here is another test. Do companies have to register as "agents of a foreign government" simply because they sub-contract with foreign companies? (Hint - the answer is "no") They have to register as "agents of a foreign government" when they are working ON BEHALF of the will and benefit of a foreign government.

If, say, the Podesta Group really was working on behalf of the Russian government, they should have registered as such, which is why they are being looked at to see if this fits or not. Likewise, Flynn and Manafort have both now officially done the paperwork to state they were working as agents of a foreign government at various times. Flynn was while on the campaign and in the White House.

__________

Did Steele come into contact with Putin intimates? Yes. He had cultivated those contacts over many years as an MI6 agent.

Did they tell him things? Yes, apparently.

Did he trust them enough to become worried about what he was hearing, and then pass the intelligence on to the American IC? Yes, yes he did.

Did his contacts face consequences once the dossier was published and their identities could be figured out by Putin? Well, it would seem so -- a sudden rash of dead high-level Russians happened shortly after the dossier was published... Coincidence? Possibly.... Or maybe not?

Mystery Death of ex-KGB chief linked to MI6 spy's dossier on Donald Trump:
www.telegraph.co.uk...

(My icons are not showing correctly on my screen - everything is a box, so I don't know how to post the link, currently. Will fix if I can.)

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Wardaddy454

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Grambler

I'm still waiting for some (any) avowed ATS leftist to say that if Hillary did anything wrong, she should be punished.

If Hillary did anything she should be punished!

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to see the right wingers here say that whatever Hillary did doesn't subtract from what Trump might have done..

I'll wait.

Fail.

I've been on record for months saying that if Trump is guilty, fry his butt.

But it is nice for a leftist to actually say that they want Hillary punished if she did anything wrong.

Are you a right winger? You constantly call yourself a "classic liberal", but you assume I'm talking about you when I say "right winger"...

Hmmmm.

The problem I see is that the left is so immersed in identity politics, that to condemn Hillary is paramount to condemning themselves, hence a level of irrationality often exists.

Funny, I've condemned Hillary on several occasions here, as have more than a few other left leaning posters.

What I haven't seen is anyone in the Trump camp say the same about Trumps Russian involvement. When it comes to Trump, it's just a made up liberal-media conspiracy. And if it did happen, Obama did it worse..

Only because if "Drumpf" is so dumb, it shouldn't be too hard to find evidence. If he did, then yes. But I'm not holding my breath for another 10 months.

Why do you think we're seeing all these hyperbolic news stories and threads, filled with nothing but assumptions and zero evidence of anything?

Distraction. Nothing more. I think a lot of people in our government are privy to a lot of facts we don't have. Obviously the Trump people are afraid of something right now, which is why the Trump-propaganda machine is currently working at full speed.

And as someone familiar with investigations, an investigation doesn't grind on for almost a year without any results. Mueller had to show some kind of evidence to get the funding approved for his last round of high priced lawyers he hired to help him on the case.

The fact that it's taking so long is obviously starting to unnerve the Trump camp. As it should. While Trump may be an idiot, the people he surrounds himself with aren't.

Its humorous to see posts like this.

I outlined all sort of evidence in the OP, and people just say "This is a distraction there is no evidence"

I think our definitions of "evidence" are different.

Evidence isn't an assumption. Evidence is information that clearly shows what took place without any room for interpretation. It isn't subjective.

If you have provided anything like that, please refresh me. In reading the OP, all I saw were assumptions that only make sense if you accept the right-wing Obama is Satan narrative without thinking.

a reply to: AboveBoard

We are not just talking about a foreign person, we are talking about a known spy for a foreign country.

You assume all russian people contacted are still working on Russias behalf, but a former UK spy you are sure was not working for the UK government.

Its a double standard.

Its moot anyways as he used Russain agents connected to the Kremlin for the info. So if fisa warrants were issued in part because of this dossier, that means Obama's admin knowingly used Kremlin agents intel to spy on opponents.

As far as mysterious deaths, what does this prove.

It could be just as likely that these sources were offed by Steele or the people that paid him, because they didn't want them to spill the beans about helping the DNC.

I am not saying this is what happned, but there is just as much proof of this as that Putin killed them.

a reply to: Grambler

Yeah, right, how do we know the CIA didnt smoke those people? Hell, given the full picture everything at stake, they might have whacked those people just to make it look like something was a miss.

The world of politics is all stagecraft afterall.

a reply to: DJW001

Why to you love Al Qaeda?

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Wardaddy454

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Grambler

I'm still waiting for some (any) avowed ATS leftist to say that if Hillary did anything wrong, she should be punished.

If Hillary did anything she should be punished!

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to see the right wingers here say that whatever Hillary did doesn't subtract from what Trump might have done..

I'll wait.

Fail.

I've been on record for months saying that if Trump is guilty, fry his butt.

But it is nice for a leftist to actually say that they want Hillary punished if she did anything wrong.

Are you a right winger? You constantly call yourself a "classic liberal", but you assume I'm talking about you when I say "right winger"...

Hmmmm.

The problem I see is that the left is so immersed in identity politics, that to condemn Hillary is paramount to condemning themselves, hence a level of irrationality often exists.

Funny, I've condemned Hillary on several occasions here, as have more than a few other left leaning posters.

What I haven't seen is anyone in the Trump camp say the same about Trumps Russian involvement. When it comes to Trump, it's just a made up liberal-media conspiracy. And if it did happen, Obama did it worse..

Only because if "Drumpf" is so dumb, it shouldn't be too hard to find evidence. If he did, then yes. But I'm not holding my breath for another 10 months.

Why do you think we're seeing all these hyperbolic news stories and threads, filled with nothing but assumptions and zero evidence of anything?

Distraction. Nothing more. I think a lot of people in our government are privy to a lot of facts we don't have. Obviously the Trump people are afraid of something right now, which is why the Trump-propaganda machine is currently working at full speed.

And as someone familiar with investigations, an investigation doesn't grind on for almost a year without any results. Mueller had to show some kind of evidence to get the funding approved for his last round of high priced lawyers he hired to help him on the case.

The fact that it's taking so long is obviously starting to unnerve the Trump camp. As it should. While Trump may be an idiot, the people he surrounds himself with aren't.

Its humorous to see posts like this.

I outlined all sort of evidence in the OP, and people just say "This is a distraction there is no evidence"

I think our definitions of "evidence" are different.

Evidence isn't an assumption. Evidence is information that clearly shows what took place without any room for interpretation. It isn't subjective.

If you have provided anything like that, please refresh me. In reading the OP, all I saw were assumptions that only make sense if you accept the right-wing Obama is Satan narrative without thinking.

Then you didn't read carefully.

There is absolute evidence for position one, that Hillarys team paid for the dossier that used a foreign agent and Russian intelligence. There is evidence that many of them said that using any intel from russia was treason, and now they are being hypocrites about it.

Position two is proven, they lied about paying for it for a year.

Positions three is proven, regardless of rather or not it was used for a dossier, the people that paid for it gave Russia the easiest path to interfering with american politics by spreading their agents intel to foster distrust.

Now points 4 and 5, which I admitted we do not have absolute proof that the dossier was used for warrants. However, we do have articles that claim to have sources that say that.

Now by all means, you are making bold claims about Trump and his team.

So provide me with your evidence that is absolute and not objective that they are guilty.

Excellent thread Gambler.

The picture on the wall is clear as day for one aspect, the dossier, as long as its in federal hands with only 10% or less that is verifiable, is enough to obtain a FISA Warrant, because "what if". This shady political manuervering was designed, probably just for that aspect to unmask and spy on the oppo.

The problem with liberals is they can't seem to understand that rules were broken and bent, remaining ignorant to reality.

Its like catching your little brother smoking for the first time, your mind doesn't understand why, rather how could you? your a kid still and this is against the rules! because you're convinced the system in place can never be undermined, people are better then that, right?. 'fraid it isn't so.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Is that even a possibility? Investigate everything and fairly. Guess the cynic in me says that won't happen because TPTB won't let it happen.

This is war of the nastiest most insidious kind. Wish such a possibility existed but there have been too many decades of power struggle, deaths, operatives, turned spies to even expect such a thing.

Most likely this battle has escalated to the point that the truths, half-truths, and lies have accidentally spilled to areas of puclic knowledge. We weren't supposed to have known of any of these dastardly goings-on.

Democracy has been an illusion for quite some time; we are just now starting to find that out-in the open-almost.

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: DJW001

Why to you love Al Qaeda?

I don't. I am on record as being opposed to the United States being involved in the Muslim Civil War. You seem to think it is all some kind of hoax.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: AboveBoard

We are not just talking about a foreign spy, we are talking about a known spy for a foreign country.

You assume all russian people contacted are still working on Russias behalf, but a former UK spy you are sure was not working for the UK government.

Its a double standard.

Its moot anyways as he used Russain agents connected to the Kremlin for the info. So if fisa warrants were issued in part because of this dossier, that means Obama's admin knowingly used Kremlin agents intel to spy on opponents.

As far as mysterious deaths, what does this prove.

It could be just as likely that these sources were offed by Steele or the people that paid him, because they didn't want them to spill the beans about helping the DNC.

I am not saying this is what happned, but there is just as much proof of this as that Putin killed them.

So now Steele is "offing" Russians?

Wow. Ok so you are saying this as a wild conjecture and claiming your fantasy of a rogue criminal Steele is equally valid to the many deaths laid at Putin's feet??

No, there is PLENTY more evidence that Putin killed them. That's something he is KNOWN for... My friend you are grasping here...

Steele is a FORMER spy - who knows, perhaps he's just pretending to be a former spy, but in context, he was NOT working on a case for the British Government, he was working on opposition research for Fusion GPS.

He used Russian contacts he'd cultivated over his career. These were people giving away Putin's secrets to a foreign spy. These are people that may be dead because of that, and not, most highly probably, from Steele murdering them.

(Or according to ISB now it's the CIA?? PUTIN IS SUCH A GOOD GUY - HE'D NEVER DO IT!! Is that what I'm hearing??? Holy Smokes. The Russians have won. We should just freaking put up their flag already and be done with it...)

ETA: 10 Critics of Putin who died in violently or in mysterious ways...
www.telegraph.co.uk...

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Wardaddy454

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Grambler

I'm still waiting for some (any) avowed ATS leftist to say that if Hillary did anything wrong, she should be punished.

If Hillary did anything she should be punished!

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to see the right wingers here say that whatever Hillary did doesn't subtract from what Trump might have done..

I'll wait.

Fail.

I've been on record for months saying that if Trump is guilty, fry his butt.

But it is nice for a leftist to actually say that they want Hillary punished if she did anything wrong.

Are you a right winger? You constantly call yourself a "classic liberal", but you assume I'm talking about you when I say "right winger"...

Hmmmm.

The problem I see is that the left is so immersed in identity politics, that to condemn Hillary is paramount to condemning themselves, hence a level of irrationality often exists.

Funny, I've condemned Hillary on several occasions here, as have more than a few other left leaning posters.

What I haven't seen is anyone in the Trump camp say the same about Trumps Russian involvement. When it comes to Trump, it's just a made up liberal-media conspiracy. And if it did happen, Obama did it worse..

Only because if "Drumpf" is so dumb, it shouldn't be too hard to find evidence. If he did, then yes. But I'm not holding my breath for another 10 months.

Why do you think we're seeing all these hyperbolic news stories and threads, filled with nothing but assumptions and zero evidence of anything?

Distraction. Nothing more. I think a lot of people in our government are privy to a lot of facts we don't have. Obviously the Trump people are afraid of something right now, which is why the Trump-propaganda machine is currently working at full speed.

And as someone familiar with investigations, an investigation doesn't grind on for almost a year without any results. Mueller had to show some kind of evidence to get the funding approved for his last round of high priced lawyers he hired to help him on the case.

The fact that it's taking so long is obviously starting to unnerve the Trump camp. As it should. While Trump may be an idiot, the people he surrounds himself with aren't.

Its humorous to see posts like this.

I outlined all sort of evidence in the OP, and people just say "This is a distraction there is no evidence"

I think our definitions of "evidence" are different.

Evidence isn't an assumption. Evidence is information that clearly shows what took place without any room for interpretation. It isn't subjective.

If you have provided anything like that, please refresh me. In reading the OP, all I saw were assumptions that only make sense if you accept the right-wing Obama is Satan narrative without thinking.

Then you didn't read carefully.

There is absolute evidence for position one, that Hillarys team paid for the dossier that used a foreign agent and Russian intelligence. There is evidence that many of them said that using any intel from russia was treason, and now they are being hypocrites about it.

Position two is proven, they lied about paying for it for a year.

Positions three is proven, regardless of rather or not it was used for a dossier, the people that paid for it gave Russia the easiest path to interfering with american politics by spreading their agents intel to foster distrust.

Now points 4 and 5, which I admitted we do not have absolute proof that the dossier was used for warrants. However, we do have articles that claim to have sources that say that.

Now by all means, you are making bold claims about Trump and his team.

So provide me with your evidence that is absolute and not objective that they are guilty.

Seeing as how there aren't any links in the OP at all, you're going to have to do better. You saying there's evidence while not providing any links or evidence isn't going to cut it for someone who doesn't automatically believe right wing propaganda to be fact.

If you have any evidence beyond your assumptions and partisan hate, let's see it. I'll completely change my tune if you can provide any actual evidence and not just opinion masquerading as evidence, which is what these endless threads are based on.

I've read every page of every thread about this so far, and it's all just opinion masquerading as fact. Something the Trump propaganda campaign does oh so well..

a reply to: Justso

Democracy is not an illusion. It is just messy. Recent events are a prelude to a massive clean up. It will probably not originate in the White House.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: theantediluvian

But it wasn't just manafort. For example, i read on one of the threads linked here that the original claim was that it was used for a warrant on Carter page.

FBI obtained FISA warrant to monitor Trump adviser Carter Page

The FBI obtained a secret court order last summer to monitor the communications of an adviser to presidential candidate Donald Trump, part of an investigation into possible links between Russia and the campaign, law enforcement and other U.S. officials said.

The FBI and the Justice Department obtained the warrant targeting Carter Page’s communications after convincing a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court judge that there was probable cause to believe Page was acting as an agent of a foreign power, in this case Russia, according to the officials.

WaPo broke that story in April. Now consider, the reporting from last year was that the FBI became interested in Carter Page after his trip to Moscow in July, when it was reported by local media outlets that he had met with sanctioned Russian officials during his trip. When was Steele contracted? Late June (after the June 14th announcement that the DNC had been hacked twice). Do we have any reason to believe that the Steele Dossier even existed in time to have been used for a FISA warrant for Carter Page in the summer?

But wait. That was in April. Then in August, it was reported that Carter Page had actually been under a FISA warrant since 2014:

Washington Examiner - Former Trump adviser Carter Page under FISA warrant since 2014: Report

Carter Page, a foreign policy adviser to during President Trump's campaign, has been the subject of a foreign surveillance warrant since 2014.

It was previously reported that Page had been under surveillance since last summer, after he left the campaign.

The idea that it was used for Carter Page was on shaky ground with a summer of 2016 FISA warrant but clearly, minus a time machine, it can't have played any role whatsoever in a 2014 FISA warrant.

Plus we don't know what other warrants there were.

Right and we don't know if there were any other relevant FISA warrants at all. So it's something we can address in support of your hypothesis or against it.

Again,my intention is that if this dossier was used at all for a fisa warrant, everything I outlined in the OP is true.

That's a non sequitur. It would be more accurate to say that if the dossier wasn't used for a FISA warrant, then the rest of your OP can't be true (at least not as is, that's not to say that there wasn't impropriety but impropriety stemming from the dossier would be ruled out).

I haven't really been keeping up with the stonewalling claims. I do seem to remember Nunez violating his own recusal and didn't he threaten AG Sessions claiming that the DOJ and FBI were stonewalling the requests that he shouldn't have been making himself?

What precisely is he seeking, how long has he been asking for it and what is the reason that is being given for him not receiving it?

a reply to: theantediluvian

And that was the extent of the FISA wiretaps?