Harvey Weinstein Has Me Thinking

originally posted by: VegHead
I think for so many of us, unwanted advances, harassment, and worse are such a common life experience that it is like white noise. You barely notice it except for when it reaches the most invasive or threatening level.

This is part of why some women might not come forward right away. It isn't until looking back, from a safe distance and maturity that comes with time, that you realize how wrongly you were treated. In the moment, it is just "life" ... just another guy aggressively trying to get into your pants.

that's a very good point. a lot of the time we're socialized to just accept it at a certain level. look at what a trope it is in our society, in entertainment.... baby, it's cold outside... no means yes... etc etc etc

You wonder a guy like Weinstein who could afford the most expensive call girls has to go around doing what he did. But of course, this ugly duckling was taking advantage of his power position. And just imagine all the times he didn’t get caught or exposed, probably in the thousands.

But we have to look inside ourselves now, our culture. In our James Bond, cool guy gets the fine babe culture, people like Weinstein have suckled off that myth all their lives.

He knows in real life rarely do guys get girls like James bond, who in the movies never gets slapped, and accused of sexual harassment.

You know IF Hollywood really wanted to do something about this the next Bond movie, aught to have a back-story of Bond getting charged with sexual harassment of Ms. MoneyPenny!

Or maybe MoneyPenny gets accused of harassing Bond, that's probably what Hollywood would prefer.

And here I’m not talking about rape or sexual harassment but our culture of the cool guy getting the fine babe.

Is that the etiology of some of this ? I hope not but the question has to be dealt with.

Indeed, the old myths in practically all of the psyches of western civilizations males is the ideal of the horny, cool dude who can just blink his eye, or put his hand on her behind softly, and like always Bond does—get the girl without hardly trying….And many of us—like myself, since from 10 years old, know its really not like in the movies!

For believe me, in real life your exposed to more that a slap in the face if you make a move on the wrong woman at the wrong time.

And here again, I’m not talking about the rape artists like scum bag Weinstein or sexual harassment but our culture of the cool guy getting the fine babe--which although is within the law, as embedded in our male cultural hero archetype in the average western heterosexual male, isn’t necessarily a healthy thing.

Even though we can say James Bond, our archetypal hero, would never stoop to the loathsome acts of a Weinstein.

He still on another level may be just as sick as Weinstein and of course delusional

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn


Thank you for being a person others feel safe to talk to. It means the world, I promise.

a reply to: kaylaluv

Have you seen Wienstein's wife? Young, pretty.

Because I understand the mentality, I took one look at her and thought... do you really love this Harvey guy? Famous for being a womanizer, loud, brash, mean.... you love him?

Or because of your looks, did you just want the lifestyle? Thought you deserved it? Overlooked a whole hell of a lot bad things and signed on the dotted line for what you thought would be the good life?

I feel sorry for her--- that instead of holding out for love, for developing self-respect---she ended up with this pig. Our society pushes this kind of story about hitting the jack pot through marriage.

a reply to: Willtell

And here I’m not talking about rape or sexual harassment but our culture of the cool guy getting the fine babe.

I think you have hit the nail, even if not directly on the head.

The foundation of this behavior is rooted in class, power, and control. In the beginning women were never viewed as human in their own right. We were considered property of our fathers, the land owners, then our husbands. It has not been that long ago that women started demanding equality, and slowly society is taking notice. Unfortunately the foundation of women being objects designed for the use and pleasure of men, still stands very strong and visible. So much so that women are accepting of many of the roles that have been defined and established.

Men are not exempt. That is why they are confused about which way they are to proceed in this new world of female liberation. Even their roles as a real man is ambiguous, as defined by the images Hollywood is seeding them with. Who gets the girl? Is the suave debonair scallion, the Geek, the guy next door, the athlete...?

Both women and men use societal imaging and Hollywood as primers for what is accepted as the norm. We fall for all the trappings. Not just with what we wash our hair, how we dress, what we eat, but right down to the core of what we think.

So yes, Hollywood 101 is what is forming the mind set of our society. So you can see now why so many in our society are sick.

I find this whole new women's movement very inspiring. The million women marching in Washington. My wife participated in those marches which made feel totally in awe of her. Women are taking down predatory giants! FOX News... Hollywood... It's an amazing thing to see.

Great thread.

I've got the whole blonde/blue/boobs God gave me, thing going on too. I know it can't just be "us" though, can it? No. Silly thought. Maybe more blondes are just responding.

Anyway, the stories I could tell. Good lord. Like somebody else said "at least I was never raped", but I tell ya, I came mighty close three times. Physically fought my way out of it. Angry and in tears. Eyes swollen for days afterwards.

And it changes the way you feel about the man so much. Older men I looked up to. Men who mentored me as a young professional, I came to despise and have no respect for. Couldn't stand the sight of them thinking "I know what you are", every time I saw them acting professional.

"But I want you". Ugh. YOU CAN"T HAVE ME.

Glad you made a thread. I might come back and tell a story or two later when I have more time.

a reply to: Willtell

Still he's not as disgusting as Cosby though. He rendered his victims incapacitated enough with drugs to even object or fight back. His sorry ass needs to be locked up too.

(I like to see a man who has actually thought about it. Thank you WT.)

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

I hope you do come back and share some stories.

I've been talking to some girlfriends about this and asking them to tell me their Harvey stories.

We all have them---thin or chubby friends, really young when it happened or not.

My cousin told me a story today and we laughed so hard we were crying. It isn't funny really but looking back on it can be humorous.

She used to babysit for a single dad and he'd come home and make her sit on his king-sized bed and drink scotch and would beg for sex or massages.

She resisted---as did the other babysitters---but the stories she told and how she told them were extremely funny, however sad.

But we both remarked on how we just accepted this crap back then. It didn't really phase us because it was so prevelant.

We just thought this is the way it is folks!

The girls of today have no idea. It has gotten better. In increments.

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

You're so right.

Cosby is really the worst example of all. I can't imagine what would have happened if we had gone off with him. My best guess is he would have drugged us as that was what he's been up to for decades.

I can't believe there was a hung jury in his case.

That man is truly a criminal.

I think that a lot of it is a combination of instant gratification (beyond just the sexual) and an overall lack of respect for others. The latter may seem very obvious, but it almost seems like many only view others as objects and not people (again, beyond just the sexual). I say "beyond just the sexual" because I think its an important aspect and that the attitudes and behaviors which lead to this topic span nearly any type of social interaction.

In my experience, this can happen towards males from females too. However, that specific situation is dismissed, minimized, or just outright laughed at more frequently than not.

As a male, I have been groped, harassed, etc. many times in my life and the response is generally quite disturbing to me. Its happened in situations from being fitted for a suit to the ubiquitous bar.

In the aftermath of rejection, it has led to everything from me being accused of harassment/assault to security or police getting involved.

I have been told everything from I should just be flattered and enjoy it, to being called gay, to statements like "no always means yes when its a woman coming onto a man," to outright ridicule. The last item being fully expected even here.

I don't really have to deal with it anymore, but there were some very sketchy situations including things like having a knife pulled on me.

There are some fundamental similarities in the situations, but also some major differences on both the individual level and societal. I consider myself fairly average, so can't help but think its relatively common. I know this perspective is frequently unwelcome, but I think it all points to an even deeper issue than usually discussed.

I suspect that Harvey Weinstein has been outed in the way he has because his power had already diminished in the movie industry. I doubt if there will be any effort made to out anyone who is still powerful and near the beginning of their life of crime.

You know, you were strong and smart enough to NOT be a victim, I wouldn't spend too much time reflecting on this stuff....that being said;
I HATE women being objectified. I'm 48 and not a snowflake attitude or anything. I mean, I am very aware of attractive women in the world and purposely avoid looking or even walking in their direction. I am a bit of a biker in looks, I feel like they may feel uncomfortable or intimidated. I guess I'm saying that men are no doubt responsible for women that feel the way you do and that sucks. We're wired different. When OCCASIONALLY a women maybe flirtatious, I find it very flattering. I'm not saying women should feel this way as well, just that we're wired differently. I do feel concern fir the women of the world that don't have the wits about them to fend these kind of men off, they're predators....no doubt.

originally posted by: ipsedixit
I suspect that Harvey Weinstein has been outed in the way he has because his power had already diminished in the movie industry. I doubt if there will be any effort made to out anyone who is still powerful and near the beginning of their life of crime.

Honestly I think that's entirely up to the strength of the victims. Social media grants loud voices. And right now people are listening.

Same here OP. It does change you. Like you, I don't need healing but I do wonder how it impacted my options/choices. And it has certainly made me jaded. Worse, I could flip a switch and be a different person to deal with it. I didn't like that. Especially since I really wanted to rage.

I've had my share of being hit-on, never been sexually harrassed that I can recall. Not sure it really has any bearing on my attitude, but as a teenage girl, my posse was all guys, and I learned not to take any sh*t from anyone, and had the confidence (and still do) to call people out on their behaviour. I am a lot more tactful than I used to be, since I'm a mom, and I have to be respectful and set a good example. I may seem like a bitch, but trust me, I am actually pretty nice.

The issue with this is power. Harvey had power over these women, he used that power to force them in a position where they had to make a choice, they say "no", he crashes their career. He is a predator. He has your typical malignant narcissistic personality, and he can never be cured. All the "counselling" in the world cannot help him. He is not a "sex addict", he's much worse.

He should not be accepted back into the fold of Hollywood, but I am not sure they won't forgive and forget. Hollywood seems to forgive scumbags like this. The people have to voice their concern with their wallets, it's the ONLY way they listen. Profits and earnings are the only thing these people know. They could care less who has the moral highground.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Willtell

Sometimes I really wonder do woman realize the lustful nature of men.


Do they realize the affect they have on a man?

Right?

I say we force them to don apparel that would basically cover them from head to toe with only an eye slit. You can never be too cautious with females, saucy minxes that they are.

And you masons really have a solution. You don't even let em in the place!

a reply to: spiritualzombie

The strong women who were aware of him years ago did things like warn others (Angelina Jolie) or not work with him. Some people are saying that they didn't know what was going on. That's an easy statement to make. Nobody is going to investigate to see if that's true. Glenn Close had heard rumors but didn't know if they were true. Ronald Reagan had heard rumors of Frank Sinatra's mob connections, but "hoped" they weren't true.

Personally, I think the most important single factor in this story is not the strength of women, but the professional weakness of Harvey Weinstein.

www.businessinsider.com...-money-problems-have-followed-the-company-since-2009-11

The Weinstein Company was in a financial crisis in 2009, but it "avoided bankruptcy with a painful debt and asset restructuring," according to The New York Times.

In 2010, the Walt Disney Company agreed to sell Miramax to an investor group for $660 million. The Weinsteins had attempted to regain control of Miramax but were unsuccessful, The Times reported.

I think there must be a consensus in the industry that Harvey Weinstein is not an important force anymore, and that it is now safe to collect pounds of flesh.

I'm not defending Weinstein. I just don't believe there is any valor or heroism in the mob that is, very likely justifiably, attacking him. He's a bleeding shark being torn to bits by other sharks and smaller fish, perhaps because he deserves it, but certainly because his attackers think they can, at this point, when his career has passed its peak, get away with it.

Thanks for the thread, takes a lot of guts to come forth about this. I'm happy those in Hollywood finally are bringing it to light, being such a long time known thing not dealt with despite lawsuits and more. It's wrong, and should not be something- people have to deal with- of course.

As some have mentioned that these victims stayed around to further their career, no, seems more likely many had luckily left the situation rather than playing it up for their own advantage.


a reply to: ladyinwaiting
Exactly right it does change you.

No, not just blonde/blue. Maybe more common due to stereotyping? At least redhead stereotypes of us being more "fiery" and "crazy", seems to have in at least one case kept someone away that said to an acquaintance(unknowingly trying to set me up with someone that tuned out to be sexually aggressive) he was scared of redheads when I was described.

Had some experiences, sadly even employment options that were potential sexual abuse cases. One case was modeling/acting, sadly known for cases of such-knew I may have been getting into this(which should be in the first place!), that turned out to being "propositioned" in that first interview. I later heard I wasn't the first.

In another case, I had walked out on a boss in a hiring process that was "adjusting himself" during the interview.

That's just some of the employment situations and more tame situations(and to not be too personal as well).

a reply to: MRuss

I am sorry that happened to you. One of my ex-girlfriends was also sexually harassed by a police officer in Miami, Fl. I think she knew him, or we both knew him since both of us were applying for police officer jobs and knew a few cops. She never wanted to tell me who it was, and just wanted to drop it.

But something else i wanted to point out. This doesn't happen just to women. It happens to a few of us men too. For example, I was on leave back in Florida visiting my parents for a few days, and one day i decided to go to the beach. I didn't know the area well and was just strolling alongside the beach, when an older man approached me and started asking me questions. He extended his hand and i thought at first he was just being friendly. I reached out has shook his hand, but then he wouldn't let go of my hand and made advances at me. When I realized what was going on I pulled my hand and walked away.

I have had other gay men made similar advances at me, even when I was with a girlfriend just walking and enjoying the scenery. Not saying all gay men are like this, but just letting you know that it does happen to men too.

But as it is some women have done the same as well but not in the same way. What i noticed is that there are women who see you with a pretty girlfriend and want to try to get the man of that pretty girl. For example, that same girlfriend who was harassed by a police officer, was riding with me in my car and we stopped at a light, a woman on another car also stopped on the light, although i didn't notice to tell you the truth. But then I heard my ex-girlfriend yelling at the other woman because she said the other woman was trying to flirt with me, even though I did not even realize it. I have had women looked at me when we both were just walking and my ex-girlfriend never got that jealous before.

That's not the only time it has happened, but as I wrote earlier, those women probably wouldn't have done the same if I was walking by myself. It's not like i am super hot or anything like that, just a regular dude. IMO it is about "competing" that some women, and men like. Or getting what they think they can't get because that person is with someone else.

But anyway, i am sorry those things happened to you.