Catalonia: Tyrannical Crackdown, Police Seize Ballots

Why is no one talking about this?
www.thelocal.es...

They are breaking into warehouses and physically removing the actual voting capacities of millions of people.

Police on Thursday seized more than six million ballots and envelopes and 100 ballot boxes in a Catalan town, in the latest bid to block a banned independence referendum, a police source said. The seizures are the latest in a long list of items confiscated by police as Madrid pulls out the stops to prevent the northeastern region from staging the vote on Sunday. "The Guardia Civil (police force) seized 2.5 million ballots, four million envelopes and 100 ballot boxes in a warehouse in Igualada," said the source, speaking on condition of anonymity. These are the first ballot boxes to be seized by police in the crackdown on the referendum.

By all accounts, the people are justifiably incensed and should there be a civil war in that region, Spain will have brought this upon themselves.

a reply to: skynet2015

I'm of a mixed mind on this issue. On the one hand, I believe a people should be allowed to govern themselves. On the other hand, if every angry subsection of a nation were allowed to declare their independence then anarchy would reign. It is quite a conundrum and I simply don't have the historical knowledge of this schism to pick sides. My understanding is that Catalonia has felt they were somehow better than the rest of the nation for some time now.

a reply to: skynet2015

You are right, the media should be talking about it.
I am not sure where you are from though, because the Leftist MSM here in the USA still cannot get past Trump talking about assholes in the NFL taking a knee.
It's eating up a lot of airtime that could be used for more pressing issues.

The last Spanish Civil war should still be fresh enough in the minds of the Spanish that they'll avoid that outcome; one can hope anyways. That said, if the central government won't allow for a peaceful process, they'll likely only get a violent one.

desertedplaces.blogspot.com...

a reply to: skynet2015

Spain is scared without catalonia their per head income, general generated € would be next to nothing.
It's a shame really. I entirely support the move for independence not just from catalonia, but also Bavaria, the Scottish,... if the EU is supposed to have any relevance in the future they'd better support it too. Would be much better for everyone in the long run.

a reply to: skynet2015

I wish them well, I wonder if this crackdown originated within Spain or the EU fearing that new nationality's emerging inside it's territory was going against it's own long term plan's of merging all into one country.

We outside of Spain are actually somewhat ignorant of the fact that Spain actually has multiple regional languages, cultures and actually is made up of many once independent nation's.

Technically though the Catalan Referendum was in breach of the Spanish constitution were these region's are entitled to self govern but must adhere to the constitution as part of a single Spanish nation.

en.wikipedia.org...

Does this vote mean anything or is it just cosmetic?

If they vote yes, are they then away from Spain or what's next.

originally posted by: TobyFlenderson
a reply to: skynet2015

I'm of a mixed mind on this issue. On the one hand, I believe a people should be allowed to govern themselves. On the other hand, if every angry subsection of a nation were allowed to declare their independence then anarchy would reign. It is quite a conundrum and I simply don't have the historical knowledge of this schism to pick sides. My understanding is that Catalonia has felt they were somehow better than the rest of the nation for some time now.

Regions and nations formed when everyone has a common interest and share similar cultural values eg. farming regions with a central government as in France. Then the whole population identifies as French.

But they will just as easily fall apart if the cultural differences become too great. Eg. a hard working industrial region vs. a corrupt central government plagued with cronyism and neptism. Then that region will want to detach themselves.

The main issue between Catalonia and Spain is that regional income taxes are different between Catalonia and Madrid. People at all levels of income are taxed at a higher rate in Catalonia than in Madrid, even if they earn the same.

www.advoco.es...

This has prompted Catalonia to try and take over regional tax collection, much to the annoyance of Spain. And the Spanish government has responded with an iron-fist reaction. They could have simply offered to harmonize these tax rates.

originally posted by: Willtell
Does this vote mean anything or is it just cosmetic?

If they vote yes, are they then away from Spain or what's next.

It's just cosmetic and some what illegal.

The vote means nothing.

originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe

originally posted by: Willtell
Does this vote mean anything or is it just cosmetic?

If they vote yes, are they then away from Spain or what's next.

It's just cosmetic and some what illegal.

The vote means nothing.

Depends on what the people who voted believe, if they feel it is a reflection of the people in the region, it will certainly carry weight even if the politicians try to pretend it does not matter.

Also if it is purely cosmetic why the crackdown?

I generally don't see the point in secession for regions that will only go and become powerless parts of even larger entities. However, if enough people demand a referendum it should be given. If necessary every 30 years or so.

If not the sentiment will fester and potentially turn to violence and/or terrorist movements. Feel Spain is handling this badly.

a reply to: skynet2015

They are breaking into warehouses and physically removing the actual voting capacities of millions of people.

It's a pretty normal thing in 'democratic' process. My name was striken from the rolls of registered voters in the town I live in, along with hundreds of others, even after I registered well in advance, in the last U.S. national election. I wasn't very surprised. I was told to blame it on the "Trump People" running the town's polls last year, but I don't know. Well they, whoever they were, sure kept my vote out successfully, with nothing more than a point-and-click action I suspect.

I'm seeing on Twitter the Spanish government basically held some Google employees hostage until they took down an app that showed people where they could vote in this referendum. That's some Gestapo #.

But yeah, we should totally be more like Europe.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: skynet2015

Spain is scared without catalonia their per head income, general generated € would be next to nothing.
It's a shame really. I entirely support the move for independence not just from catalonia, but also Bavaria, the Scottish,... if the EU is supposed to have any relevance in the future they'd better support it too. Would be much better for everyone in the long run.

The EU? Having any relevance in the future?? Nah, it’s pretty toothless — that’s what happens when monetary policy is homogenized and fiscal policy heterogenous. As it relates to succession, I’m of the same mind as TobyFlenderson. They should have the right in principal, but in practice, it’s a hard sell and even harder close. If what you are saying is correct regarding its purchasing power relative to the remainder state, maybe this creates much needed leverage to “level the playing field” and they hammer it and do a bunch of horse-trading...otherwise, the ‘squashing’ of this referendum vote would only seem to emboldened the citizens of Catalonia. Seems like a lose-lose situation for Madrid/Spain.

a reply to: BeefNoMeat

The last sentence is definitely true. They have no option that wouldn't imply serious losses. But this forceful shutting down of what would have been a symbolic, because technically illegal vote has to backfire.
If they would have let it go through Catalonia would have said "see the least you have to do is leave more of our generated wealth in our region" there would have been discussion, compromise and eventually it would have cooled down.
But with this cracking down it is doomed to get violent.

originally posted by: Willtell
Does this vote mean anything or is it just cosmetic?

If they vote yes, are they then away from Spain or what's next.

It would be the same as the Brexit referendum but Spain would tell them to # off.

a reply to: skynet2015

SPAIN isn't America they are EUROPEAN caste thinking people ,that has been INGRAINED since Rome.
They won't really FIGHT as readily as any American would.
If you slap MOST europeans they''ll first want ask why you did so ,in case THEY are at fault.
IF you slap, without explanation, Americans ,it very well could provoke an overdone response ,until you can't slap them anymore,we don't care about fault.
THIS was tested and proven in GERMANY against the citizens that were BRITISH ,Italian,German ,French and I think Spanish or a South American people BY MYSELF, to see, during REFORGER 85.
Turks will go get all their relatives to hurt you...
Koreans and all orientals as combatants are small and breakable(Size matters in hand to hand if one is equally intelligent and fast),they don't eat meat,but their passion for discipline in precise skills, in some cases, can exceed the known human condition.

originally posted by: Irishhaf

originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe

originally posted by: Willtell
Does this vote mean anything or is it just cosmetic?

If they vote yes, are they then away from Spain or what's next.

It's just cosmetic and some what illegal.

The vote means nothing.

Depends on what the people who voted believe, if they feel it is a reflection of the people in the region, it will certainly carry weight even if the politicians try to pretend it does not matter.

Also if it is purely cosmetic why the crackdown?

The crackdown is because it's illegal.

originally posted by: Irishhaf

originally posted by: Nexttimemaybe

originally posted by: Willtell
Does this vote mean anything or is it just cosmetic?

If they vote yes, are they then away from Spain or what's next.

It's just cosmetic and some what illegal.

The vote means nothing.

Depends on what the people who voted believe, if they feel it is a reflection of the people in the region, it will certainly carry weight even if the politicians try to pretend it does not matter.

Also if it is purely cosmetic why the crackdown?

Because if it's illegal why would it be allowed to happen? That's tacit consent. If you say they don't get a vote ... then they don't get a vote.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

And what do you think is going to happen with a heavy handed crack down?

they will sooner or later force what they are afraid of happening.

The harder they fight without talks, the more likely the people of that region are to pursue independence it plays directly into the hands of the people pushing for the referendum.

See look at what madrid is doing, see how they come at us...

versus..
if they said hey come to madrid lets talk about the problems and see if we can find common ground, then while talk do a full court propaganda press to convince the people that staying with the Spanish govt is in their best interest.