New Study Shows that Immigrants Don't Steal Jobs from American Citizens

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: DBCowboy

Why should I differentiate when the study, my source doesn't? I don't manipulate data. Do you expect me to?

Then the fault is with the study and those that use faulty data to illustrate some partisan issue.

I find fault with the person who wants to casually dismiss the data over actually reading the study to see if it is actually faulty over some silly semantics. So I guess we both have issues.

Quoting for reference.

a reply to: DBCowboy

You're welcome. I'm glad I was able to help you more easily maintain your biases and not challenge your thinking any.

Talk to any contractor building houses about illegals.

See if their competitors are using labor that may not be in this country legally.

Go to some of the Home Depot try stores and look at the day labor that is available.

Could these jobs be done by Americans?

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Unless and until the law is changed, it must be enforced. That's the social contract.

Do you believe that absolutely, or is your opinion subject to change based on the law in question?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: DBCowboy

You're welcome. I'm glad I was able to help you more easily maintain your biases and not challenge your thinking any.

YOU don't see a difference between legal and illegal immigration.

I'd say the bias rests with you.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Unless and until the law is changed, it must be enforced. That's the social contract.

The law is just a piece of paper with text on it. I'd rather obey the spirit of the law instead and I don't feel like punishing people that want to live here just because they happened to have been born on some part of the planet that isn't within our arbitrary borders and didn't come here the EXACT way we wanted them to. But then again I feel the same way towards drug laws. I happen to not care for authority that I have deemed to be nonsensical.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: DBCowboy

You're welcome. I'm glad I was able to help you more easily maintain your biases and not challenge your thinking any.

YOU don't see a difference between legal and illegal immigration.

I'd say the bias rests with you.

Well. They are just human beings at the end of the day. Though I understand the legal differences between the two, so again please stop ad homineming me or even inventing my arguments for me. Stick to your own knowledge. Not mine.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Tbats the whole point...no one is going to publish those,numbers. We already know that social security won't tell people when others use their ss#. What employer is,going to rat himself out? What illegal immigrant is going to out themselves? So where do you think any real numbers would come from?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: DBCowboy

You're welcome. I'm glad I was able to help you more easily maintain your biases and not challenge your thinking any.

YOU don't see a difference between legal and illegal immigration.

I'd say the bias rests with you.

Well. They are just human beings at the end of the day. Though I understand the legal differences between the two, so again please stop ad homineming me or even inventing my arguments for me. Stick to your own knowledge. Not mine.

Where????

Where did he attack you?

a reply to: RickyD

Sounds like a nice excuse to dismiss you being too lazy to even attempt to prove your point.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: SlapMonkey

A few things to note. 1) Illegals pay taxes. This has been demonstrated over and over again.

Something to note: I said "file taxes," not "pay taxes." That difference massively matters, because if they don't file taxes, they can't be included in a study based on figures derived from filed taxes.

2) The correlation between immigration and jobs isn't a zero sum system. With more people comes more entrepreneurs too. Thus more businesses that offer more jobs. Personal example: My place of employment is owned by immigrants. They employ many immigrants.

That's great--but like my parenthetical disclaimer at the beginning of my comment specifically notes, I'm discussing illegal immigrants, since that's the argument to which you are responding in this OP, yet incorrectly lump legal immigrants in with.

3) Yes you can attribute these gains to the recession, but there is data here to be analyzed. We can't just sweep it under the rug to continue believing our preconceived notions. When an anomaly in the data is discovered, it must be explained. Why is it that non-high school diploma having workers saw the greatest proportional increase in their earnings?

I already noted that--specifically in the comment to which you just responded and asked this question.

It's because things are leveling out again, and since that sector of income say heavy losses during the recession, they're seeing the heaviest recovery as well.

You still didn't address the underlying point, though: Just because there are more jobs doesn't mean that illegal immigrants are not taking jobs that Americans should have. The correlation that you're making from this study is illogical at best, and fueled by divisive politics at worst. Hopefully it's just the former, as that can be fixed...

My only experience with this is that my ex an old bricklayer said many years ago, before the burst bubble, that Mexican skilled workers were taking all the jobs and could afford to get paid 10 per hr per man per crew rather than the 18-24 basic that companies nonunion or prevailing wages paid workers.

It began to really hurt families and individuals long before the bubble burst. The companies had to do what they had to to survive, cant blame them, but yes They really do take away American jobs...

One more from me, Have traveled I44 alot over the years and usually stop in Amarillo or other states along the route, At American based hotels we were always hard pressed to find English speaking hotel or restaurant, grocery store workers...

a reply to: thesaneone

"Studies" and narratives like these are used to blur the lines between legal and illegal immigration.

It's obvious and not very well done, IMHO.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

They DO file taxes though. There is a MASSIVE fund that the IRS manages of unclaimed tax returns to SSN and people that don't exist or they can't reach. This is how we know that illegals pay taxes.
The Truth About Undocumented Immigrants and Taxes

Every year, the Social Security Administration collects billions of dollars in taxes that it doesn’t know who paid. Whenever employers send in W-2 forms that have Social Security numbers that don’t match with anyone on record, the agency routes the paperwork to what’s called the Earnings Suspense File, where it sits until people can prove the wages were theirs, allowing them to one day collect retirement benefits.

The Earnings Suspense File now contains Social Security tax forms that date back to 1937 and are linked to the taxes that were paid on nearly $1.3 trillion in wages. Some of the W-2s in it belong to people who got married and never reported changing their name. Others are people who filled out their tax forms incorrectly. As of 2014, efforts to track these taxpayers down allowed the Social Security Administration to match 171 million tax forms to their rightful owners.

But there are still about 340 million unclaimed tax forms recorded in the file, compared to 270 million nearly a decade ago. A good portion of those forms were filed by employers on behalf of some of the most unlikely funders of Social Security: undocumented immigrants. In fact, illegal immigration is considered largely responsible for the mushrooming of the file, with undocumented workers paying billions in taxes for retirement benefits they will likely never receive.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

No I'm pretty sure I've proven my point. All it takes is,to apply a little logic. All knowledge and truth is not contained on the internet my friend...

a reply to: Krazysh0t

How about some math? Subtract the number of illegal immigrants over the decades from the blue-collar work force and then ask where did those former American job-holders and potential job-holders go?

I don't know about other parts of the country, but Texas was one of the hardest hit parts of the nation where the lower-middle class took a huge hit. My son was a ceramic tile layer. Those all of jobs literally went "south." In those days the American craftsman tile-setter made about $30/hour. Then the contractors got smart and brought in Mexican workers at 10 bucks and hour. (The country of Mexico does a lot of ceramic tile work and had many skilled workers.)

The shifting better-paid employees for those of lower pay is a typical tactic that has spread across America. Of course, it didn't stop there. Any day of the week you can hire a professional workers from India, etc., over an American. Or better yet, you can close call centers in the US and ship those jobs to call centers in off-shore countries. Business interests and government can cite all the stats that they want to cover the lie, but it is a lie, and part of the reason Americans near the bottom of the wage barrel put Trump into office.

When it comes to dollar and sense, the unwashed see through the facade that supports globalization because they are the ones that suffer. That is the bottom line of all of this wealth sharing going on around the world. Upgrade the poor nations at the expense of the wealth. The 1%s don't care a fig, as owners and investors their profits have probably grown.

originally posted by: RickyD
a reply to: Krazysh0t

No I'm pretty sure I've proven my point. All it takes is,to apply a little logic. All knowledge and true is not contained on the internet my friend...

No. I'm pretty sure you haven't. You just said a bunch of things with a dismissive attitude and treated me like an idiot, but didn't prove anything at any point with outside sources. Then when I asked you to, you instead deflected by telling me it wasn't possible. So I wonder, what makes you correct if you can't prove your point? Why do you know so well? I see a huge hole in your logic. I certainly don't believe # just because it sounds good or I can find a lot of anecdotes supporting it.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Guess if the shoe fits...

You believe anything that supports your point and do everything in your power to dismiss anything contrary. Pretty sure I've been on ATS long enough to know how you operate here.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

As you can see, the conclusion is that proportionally, that class saw more gains than other groups did. Again. These are the people taking construction jobs, farming jobs, landscaping jobs, roofing jobs, etc. If wages are going up for them across the board, then how are illegals cutting into wages for citizens?

1. I think Trump and anyone that wants to spend billions on making a wall really don't care to stop immigration or are looking to just waste money and resources.

2. Just because 'they' experienced a gain doesn't mean they weren't or aren't effected.

Perhaps they didn't gain anything but still would have been better then today with their say 5% increase.
Your pay is not determined by your degree or education, its determined by the worker pool.

The legals are effecting the Legal workers in those same industry because the corporation and business have a bigger selection to pick from. The bigger the pool of workers the less they have to pay.

Therefore because there are enough illegals to meet most of the demand in those industries they don't have to pay as much. T Ofcourse the catch is that would then in turn mean higher cost for everyone and good and service.

Its one of those "careful what you wish for , you just might get it" situations.

However, that doesn't mean that illegals aren't effecting Americans in those industries. It is because Americans can't afford to live on below minimum wage with no benefits or worker rights and neither could the illegal if they planned to stay here. The illegals can because their goal is not to stay its to send money back to their family and retire in their home land where they will live like a king. The American here has no chance of ever being able to live of those wages if they and there family are in the States.


Having said that , I do think the illegal immigration problem made by both the GOP and the DNC is a bunch of BS and neither is telling the truth. The truth is that illegals are an integral part of our economy and the big corporations in Agriculture , Hospitality, and Construction want them because they benefit from them on the tax payers dollars.

The Trump wall is the Rube Goldberg solution to immigration. The fix is REALLY SIMPLE but neither the democrats or republicans want to really fix it because they are being paid not to by the lobbyist.

All you have to do is heavily fine American corporations 30K per illegal immigrant working for them , and the reward for corporations will no longer be worth the risk . In return American companies stop hiring illegals since its not worth the risk. The result is that the majority of illegals stop coming. That leaves plenty of resources available to concentrate on the few that are coming just to do harm.

The real issue with immigration is not illegal immigrants its the legal h1b visa immigrants that impacts our nation. Not just on taxes,income,local economy , but in education as well. Why would you take out loans and study to be an Engineer,Doctor, etc if you have to compete with your 3rd world counter part who only takes in a 5th of what you should be paid but can still live like a king back in their home land.

Immigration is a perfect example of how the DNC,GOP, and the MSM all obfuscate the issues and distract the American people from the harsh truths of reality.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I didn't specify legal immigration and neither did the study.

The study doesn't mention immigration at all--you are the one making false equivocations and poor conclusions.

The study isn't saying what you are.

Here's a neat trick for everyone to try: Go to the link and open the PDF, then hit Ctrl+F and search the document for ANY terminology that you want to that pertains to "immigration." If you get a positive hit, let me know, because there were zero results for any term that I tried.