New Study Shows that Immigrants Don't Steal Jobs from American Citizens

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Hopefully you realize that I fall on the left side of things the vast majority of the time, but this is a mathematical impossiblity...


Well unless illegal immigrants being here created more jobs somehow, than they took. Such as border patrol and providing whatever everyday services they require while here. Which is possible...

PERIOD more people = less jobs.

So the fact they are making more than uneducated legals is not a good thing , nor does it mean they are not taking jobs.

In a lot of cases those jobs still require getting done. So whoever would be forced to offer more money until an American agreed to do it.

I don't think most are criminals or bad prior, but the more people in a class of workers. The less those jobs pay.

More people also means those people create businesses of their own that employ more people. It's not a simple zero-sum system here.

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
If wages are going up for them across the board, then how are illegals cutting into wages for citizens?

Imagine the gains had our borders been secured and our laws enforced.

Why should I imagine the impossible?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
If wages are going up for them across the board, then how are illegals cutting into wages for citizens?

Imagine the gains had our borders been secured and our laws enforced.

Why should I imagine the impossible?

See, defeatism solves nothing. I believe it isn't impossible to secure the border and I believe it isn't impossible to have leaders who actually enforce the nation's laws. You calling those impossible does shed a lot of light on much of your posts and where you're coming from, though. Thank you for that, it gives me a much clearer perspective.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Who's against legal immigration?

I didn't specify legal immigration and neither did the study.

lol, you burned yourself.

Epic fail.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Who's against legal immigration?

I didn't specify legal immigration and neither did the study.

I know.

And that's the problem.

You don't appear to see a difference between legal and illegal immigration.

a reply to: Krazysh0t
One time, I was walking into a job to apply, and then an illegal just snuck right in front of me and took my jerb!! Boy was I upset!

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Who's against legal immigration?

I didn't specify legal immigration and neither did the study.

I know.

And that's the problem.

You don't appear to see a difference between legal and illegal immigration.

I don't need to see a difference between them when I'm talking about both at the same time, but regardless, I'd appreciate you not ad hominem in a thread not in the mud pit.

(beware...I'm going to form comment around the idea that you mean "illegal immigrants," since that who the bulk of people talk about when discussing this issue)

Ah, yes, the coveted (loosely applied, in this case) correlation-equals-causation argument.

The logic that you're trying to use to come to this conclusion that you're promoting is flawed.

The rise in income has little to do with indications of illegal immigrants stealing jobs and has nearly everything to do with a recovery from a recession.

But here's the simple math that does matter, in the argument from your thread title: More people in a country with limited numbers of jobs means that less people have access to these jobs. If ANY--I don't care if it's a total of three--illegal immigrants hold jobs in America, those are jobs that Americans (or legal immigrants) don't have.

I looked over the linked study, and it specifically notes that this data was collected from tax information. MANY/most illegal immigrants do not file taxes, so this means that we have little-to-no information on exactly what portion of these jobs and wage increases are affecting illegal immigrants compared to citizens/legal immigrants.

Basically, just because you're citing the highest right in wage increases being in the same group as most illegal immigrants would fall doesn't mean much, as the same study notes that the same group of wage earners experience the highest decline in wages during the recession, too.

The bottom line is that things are bouncing back to where they "should" be if the recession hadn't occurred, and so it's natural to see the places where jobs were lost the most would see the highest replacements as businesses could afford to do it. I live in Northern Kentucky, and factories that employ thousands of people each, around the clock, are popping up like zits on a teenage gamer's back, and these are precisely the jobs that this study cites. I have lived here since 2011, and this trend of new factories being built coincides with the dates of this study.

Regardless of all of that (I'm just rambling, I think), the bottom line is that this study really shows zero correlation as it pertains to illegal immigrants and the jobs that they hold in America. We all know that they do work here, so constructive thinking would allow one to realize that if they are working here, they are doing jobs that could and should be available to legal immigrants and citizens.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
If wages are going up for them across the board, then how are illegals cutting into wages for citizens?

Because those jobs could be going to Americans, too, and those Americans would be working instead of collecting unemployment.

If you have 100 apples, then add 100 more to the pile, you have 200 apples. If 30 are stolen, you only have 170 available apples, even if you still have 70% more than when you started. Having more at the end than at the start doesn't negate the reality that 30 are missing.

Tracking?

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
If wages are going up for them across the board, then how are illegals cutting into wages for citizens?

Imagine the gains had our borders been secured and our laws enforced.

Why should I imagine the impossible?

See, defeatism solves nothing. I believe it isn't impossible to secure the border and I believe it isn't impossible to have leaders who actually enforce the nation's laws. You calling those impossible does shed a lot of light on much of your posts and where you're coming from, though. Thank you for that, it gives me a much clearer perspective.

There has literally never been a country in the history of the world that has 0% illegal immigration so yeah. Imagine the impossible. Keep dreaming. Also, why am I defeatist? I don't give as much of a hoot about illegals crossing the border as you do. I don't even feel the need to secure the border. Just legalize them if they want to be Americans. It's cheaper that way.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Who's against legal immigration?

I didn't specify legal immigration and neither did the study.

I know.

And that's the problem.

You don't appear to see a difference between legal and illegal immigration.

I don't need to see a difference between them when I'm talking about both at the same time, but regardless, I'd appreciate you not ad hominem in a thread not in the mud pit.

No.

You fail to differentiate and that's part of the larger problem.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Sure because the illegal ones always report income and you know go by the books...and their employers would never hide payments to them or obfuscate their employment. Smh...what kind of logic are we using here?

Edit: nor would they steal ss# and report under someone else...and the ss office is very up front with people about their identity being stolen...riiiiiight?

Its important to reiterate that Immigrants only take jobs away from Americans. Like when season farmers need folks to pick their harvest, and nobody (local) is willing to do the work, all that means is that the super evil immigrants are actually secretly brainwashing American's into not wanting the work just so they can steal it for themselves. Fox news told me so.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

A few things to note. 1) Illegals pay taxes. This has been demonstrated over and over again. 2) The correlation between immigration and jobs isn't a zero sum system. With more people comes more entrepreneurs too. Thus more businesses that offer more jobs. Personal example: My place of employment is owned by immigrants. They employ many immigrants. 3) Yes you can attribute these gains to the recession, but there is data here to be analyzed. We can't just sweep it under the rug to continue believing our preconceived notions. When an anomaly in the data is discovered, it must be explained. Why is it that non-high school diploma having workers saw the greatest proportional increase in their earnings?

a reply to: DBCowboy

Why should I differentiate when the study, my source doesn't? I don't manipulate data. Do you expect me to?

a reply to: RickyD

So got any hard numbers to counter me or just your indignity?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: DBCowboy

Why should I differentiate when the study, my source doesn't? I don't manipulate data. Do you expect me to?

Then the fault is with the study and those that use faulty data to illustrate some partisan issue.

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: DBCowboy

Why should I differentiate when the study, my source doesn't? I don't manipulate data. Do you expect me to?

Then the fault is with the study and those that use faulty data to illustrate some partisan issue.

I find fault with the person who wants to casually dismiss the data over actually reading the study to see if it is actually faulty over some silly semantics. So I guess we both have issues.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Unless and until the law is changed, it must be enforced. That's the social contract.

a reply to: RickyD
I am fully aware of the MANY legal American citizens who also do not report their income. Like the people who serve food and don't report their cash tips (income) , or the wealthy white collars who hide income in offshore accounts (Panama Papers), drug dealers, recyclers of metal and pallets, flea market vendors, people who do yard sales, the ice cream truck guys, dog walkers, mobile mechanics etc.. etc..

I always thought we hated the IRS though. Plus income tax is pretty muc the only tax an illegal would be avoiding. They would still pay FCC tax on their media subscriptions, Sales taxes in the states that apply them, assessment on their home if they somehow bought one, which many do, the tax for their car, the tax to drive (license), the taxes for the gas etc.etc..

I am a firm proponent of build the wall, but more so from an anti-terrorism crime syndicate POV, not as a tool to save jobs. There are so many ways to make money for yourself in this country it is almost funny. The real problem is not a lack of jobs in this country, its a lack of motivation to be entrepreneurial in spirit which stems from corrupted education system that only wants to produce servants and not self empowered business owners.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: DBCowboy

Why should I differentiate when the study, my source doesn't? I don't manipulate data. Do you expect me to?

Then the fault is with the study and those that use faulty data to illustrate some partisan issue.

I find fault with the person who wants to casually dismiss the data over actually reading the study to see if it is actually faulty over some silly semantics. So I guess we both have issues.

You actually saved me from doing that when you stated that the study didn't differentiate between illegal and legal immigrants.

So thank you for saving me some time!