"Fixing" the National Football League's Political Problem

originally posted by: ConscienceZombie
Just an idea. All of this Op makes me disgusted with the NFL. Here's my idea.

If we go off of the premise that Trump is for the people. He also knows his words have power to the public. As one member stated. Until trump opened his mouth this was all under the radar to the public. So maybe Trump opened his mouth to get this out in the open. The NFL has been basically raping us.

Just a thought.

I support trump, but come on, this is a stretch.

Trump said what he did to get applause from his base. End of story.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler

But let's not pretend that when it comes to culture, the left dominated.

Rather it be sports, tv, movies, music, etc, all of this is dominated by the left.

No, it's not dominated by the Left. It's dominated by the few that are most vocal.

That is just not true.

So you would contend that most sports stars, sports media, actors, and muscians that are popular are actually not left leaning?

originally posted by: burdman30ott6

originally posted by: theantediluvian
a reply to: burdman30ott6

Okay, so you started caring about it when Kaepernick took a knee last year. Last week, last year — the impetus for and conditional nature of how much you actually gaf isn't changed by the precise date.

You posted that "I didn't care about this until a week ago" and then used that condition as the basis of your entire argument and post... but things aren't changed "by the precise date" when I say this has been a personal beef of mine for over a year now. 1 week ago versus 1 year ago... not changed by precise date. O_o What manner of counter point sorcery is this, Ante? Your entire point collapses in absence of this weekend's flap being the ultimate motivation here...

Not at all.

What difference does it make to your own argument whether your views formed at the beginning or during the most recent flashpoint? Do you want points for hopping on the bandwagon before other people? Fine, you're a real trendsetter.

The fact remains that you only started caring about subsidies and the monopolistic nature of the NFL's relationship with broadcasters because of the issue of players not standing for the national anthem or more precisely, the NFL not reacting to it as you would like them to.

That's important because as you imply in your own OP, you see this "special treatment" as a carrot to be dangled in front of the NFL to coerce them to act in a fashion you deem appropriate. That is, if they were to overnight, institute a league rule requiring standing during the national anthem and fine/fire anyone who didn't follow that rule, you'd go right back to not having a problem with that "special treatment."

a reply to: theantediluvian

Can you answer this...why should the NFL be subsidized in the first place?

Regardless of whats going on now with all the kneeling fap...why would we spend taxpayer money on a sport worth well over 25 billion when we can't even figure out how to provide healthcare, homes, and work to the citizens of this country?

a reply to: theantediluvian

I honestly don't think I knew just how subsidized and sheltered from the law the NFL is until I started looking into this deeper. My position on pro sports in general has matured along with myself. When I was a kid, I didn't care because I wasn't paying much in taxes and things like sports were important to me. Now that I'm raising kids, I have a more nuanced perspective on these issues. Look at it this way, if you will, as I've said multiple times in this thread, there's a lot more here than just the national anthem protests. There's a commissioner on a massive power trip for the past couple of years, there are owners who hold cities hostage for new stadiums when the stadium they have is still sound and the communities are already strapped, and there are a slew of very wealthy adults who conduct themselves like animals at times.

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: intrepid

...since they have chosen to put themselves in a position contrary to the traditionally social issue neutrality professional sports leagues have adopted over the past 30 years...

They didn't. It was thrust on them by a pompous president that used them to make points with his base. This benign protest was barely mentioned this year until Trump opened his big mouth to inflame the situation. It wasn't even a pimple before his words. Barely a blemish but now, due to HIM, we have a seeping boil.

Very true. This was not a political issue. It was a social issue and someone outside the NFL made it political.

Bull! Disrespecting the anthem and flag isn't 'political'???

Freaking amazing level of denial..New heights.

a reply to: Grambler

When Trump acknowledges the plight of black communities — such as disproportionate unemployment or lack of educational opportunities — and promises that he alone can fix them, does he become a lefty?

I've always assumed that conservatives could acknowledge social dysfunction, inequality, etc. It sure seems like a certain element among conservatives is hellbent on convincing the rest of us of a revisionists history where the "Right" abolished slavery and ended segregation and the "Left" created the KKK and put up all these statues that the current Right is concerned with preserving to the extent that I saw a whole mess of people get super excited over fake news about Texans being within their rights to murder any vandal who defaced one.

Social issues are political issues because the Right keeps them that way. Think about it. I'm 100% positive that you are totally and without reservation opposed to racism and furthermore, that you believe that everyone should have an opportunity to succeed if their talents, their drive, their decisions and their fortunes allow. I would go so far as to say that you recognize that as a group, black people have gotten shafted in American society, at the very least up to the mid-60's.

That seems to be the second demarcation for conservatives (though some like to say dumb s# like "slavery ended 150 years ago!")

I mean, it's hard for anyone to deny that slavery was horrible. (doesn't stop some from trying though) It's almost as hard to deny that segregation and Jim Crow laws were wrong. It just seems like as group, conservatives flipped from fighting against the end of these things to denying the role of conservatism in preserving them along with denying that the very predictable results of them continue to this day. I imagine, and I'm not trying to speak for you, that you're fully aware that passing a couple of laws in 1964 & 1965 didn't result in overnight integration and social equality.

Here's my point, and forgive me for ranting. You know I only do it because I respect you and I'm trying harder to persuade you than the lost causes around here.

It shouldn't be a matter of politics to acknowledge the problems in our society and what the stem from. The only part of it that should be potentially political is coming up with the solutions to them.

And furthermore, I believe that if American conservatives could get over that hurdle, that we wouldn't live in a society where it was assumed that anyone who cared about "social justice" was a "leftist." Though, I could also argue that liberalism is inherently leftist though that's also a completely separate issue as to whether our abhorrent two party system is actually representative of left/right ideological perspectives.

a reply to: RickyD

As I said to Grambler, it would completely depend on what the subsidies are intended to do and if they're effective in achieving that result.

Whether it's a factory or a stadium, if we subsidize with something like tax breaks but the end result is that the project creates more jobs (good for everyone) and stimulates an increase in tax payments that meet or exceed the subsidy, then that would be a win. Wouldn't it?

That's essentially the argument for supply-side economics (tax subsidization of the wealthy writ large) except it has a much better chance of actually working when you subsidize specific endeavors instead of just telling rich people they can keep more money and hope they invest it in creating jobs.

I'm only really interested in results. I'm not that dogmatic when it comes to engineering economic outcomes.

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: intrepid

...since they have chosen to put themselves in a position contrary to the traditionally social issue neutrality professional sports leagues have adopted over the past 30 years...

They didn't. It was thrust on them by a pompous president that used them to make points with his base. This benign protest was barely mentioned this year until Trump opened his big mouth to inflame the situation. It wasn't even a pimple before his words. Barely a blemish but now, due to HIM, we have a seeping boil.

Very true. This was not a political issue. It was a social issue and someone outside the NFL made it political.

Bull! Disrespecting the anthem and flag isn't 'political'???

Freaking amazing level of denial..New heights.

It's a political issue on a social issue. I can't see how you could have one without the other in this instance.

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler

But let's not pretend that when it comes to culture, the left dominated.

Rather it be sports, tv, movies, music, etc, all of this is dominated by the left.

No, it's not dominated by the Left. It's dominated by the few that are most vocal.

That is just not true.

So you would contend that most sports stars, sports media, actors, and muscians that are popular are actually not left leaning?

I contend that they are all individuals and have their own opinions. We have no way of actually stating which way they lean as entire groups and the only reason people continue to even care about it is because it falls in to their persecution complex.

They feel people and groups of people are against them or out to get them.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Fair enough. If that's honestly what you believe about the NFL, then that's a reasoned position. And I imagine that if we pull back the curtain on other professional sporting leagues, similar situations would be revealed.

But we should care if we the people are getting a raw deal irrespective of transient hyper-politicized flaps. We shouldn't overlook them or turn our focus on them because of political expediency.

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler

But let's not pretend that when it comes to culture, the left dominated.

Rather it be sports, tv, movies, music, etc, all of this is dominated by the left.

No, it's not dominated by the Left. It's dominated by the few that are most vocal.

That is just not true.

So you would contend that most sports stars, sports media, actors, and muscians that are popular are actually not left leaning?

I contend that they are all individuals and have their own opinions. We have no way of actually stating which way they lean as entire groups and the only reason people continue to even care about it is because it falls in to their persecution complex.

They feel people and groups of people are against them or out to get them.

Its not a huge deal, so I am not going to argue.

I think that almost evryone, including the group's in mention, would admit that places like Hollywood and sports media are overwhelmingly left wing.

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler

But let's not pretend that when it comes to culture, the left dominated.

Rather it be sports, tv, movies, music, etc, all of this is dominated by the left.

No, it's not dominated by the Left. It's dominated by the few that are most vocal.

That is just not true.

So you would contend that most sports stars, sports media, actors, and muscians that are popular are actually not left leaning?

I contend that they are all individuals and have their own opinions. We have no way of actually stating which way they lean as entire groups and the only reason people continue to even care about it is because it falls in to their persecution complex.

They feel people and groups of people are against them or out to get them.

Its not a huge deal, so I am not going to argue.

I think that almost evryone, including the group's in mention, would admit that places like Hollywood and sports media are overwhelmingly left wing.

I would only wish that some people would admit that they think Hollywood and other groups lean Left wing because that has been the propaganda they have been subjected to since the 80's.

a reply to: theantediluvian

In 2017, I have a hard time seeing many professional athletes getting a "raw deal." While not exactly on par with saying a corporate CEO with a golden parachute gets a "raw deal," compared to the average working American, these men make massive amounts of money for playing a game and hitting the gym regularly.

I don't have any problem with them getting paid as much as they can, I'm nothing if not capitalist. I do, however, think professional sports need to be weaned off the government teat in all forms. If the NFL went kaput tomorrow, it would be more of an inconvenience to the average American than it would be any legitimate causer of pains and troubles. The same is true of all pro sports. Passtimes and distractions are important for societies, but not so important that we should be expending this much energy in conflict nor resources in buttressing them.

a reply to: theantediluvian

Thanks for the kind words in your post.

Of course I believe racism exists and think it is a disgusting mentality that I strive strongly to oppose.

I think most pwople, including conservatives believe that.

The question is how prevalent is it, and how do we solve it?

Any racist laws such as Jim crow should clearly be eradicated.

Any racist law enforcement or public officials should not only be fired, but prosecuted.

All of us can agree with that.

But after that, people differ.

The problem is their is no consensus on where these problems come from.

To just say slavery and Jim crow ignores that some of these problems have gotten worse as we have moved further from these. It also limits where we can look for solutions.

Ok it was slavery. Now what do we do?

There apparently is no point in looking for other explanations. By no means do I feel that it is settled that this is where all of the problems stem from.

I would argue that policies that came from the left that encouraged single families have led to a lot of problems, in all communities, but particularly some black communities.

Is fighting those policies mean I don't care about blacks? I don't think so.

Although I think there are a lot of problems with policing, and the interactions with some black communities, I disagree that the problem is all the fault of the police, or caused chiefly by racism.

I could post 50 pages on this, but I think both sides need to have a serious dialogue, and the extremes on both sides that feel the other is always wrong or evil seem to be the loudest voices and hurt the situation.

I also could go on for pages how I don't believe in equality of outcome, only of opportunity, which I think gets conflated.

Lastly, I believe trump sincerely wants to help inner city black communities that are predominantly black. He may want this for selfish reasons for more votes or whatever, but who cares.


When trump brought up these communities, he was called a racist for making it seem like all blacks were criminals.

So when someone like you brings up the plight of some black peiple, I take you as sincerely wanting to help.

But many on the left (not saying you) assume any conservative discussing these problems, the very same they discuss, is a racist.

Clearly both sides need to have a less contentious dialogue on the problems.

But I think it is not fare to assume that conservatives are not concerned about social issues.

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler

But let's not pretend that when it comes to culture, the left dominated.

Rather it be sports, tv, movies, music, etc, all of this is dominated by the left.

No, it's not dominated by the Left. It's dominated by the few that are most vocal.

That is just not true.

So you would contend that most sports stars, sports media, actors, and muscians that are popular are actually not left leaning?

I contend that they are all individuals and have their own opinions. We have no way of actually stating which way they lean as entire groups and the only reason people continue to even care about it is because it falls in to their persecution complex.

They feel people and groups of people are against them or out to get them.

Its not a huge deal, so I am not going to argue.

I think that almost evryone, including the group's in mention, would admit that places like Hollywood and sports media are overwhelmingly left wing.

I would only wish that some people would admit that they think Hollywood and other groups lean Left wing because that has been the propaganda they have been subjected to since the 80's.

I don't know what to say.

Just take the Emmys. Do you really think that most of that crowd wasn't left leaning?

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler

But let's not pretend that when it comes to culture, the left dominated.

Rather it be sports, tv, movies, music, etc, all of this is dominated by the left.

No, it's not dominated by the Left. It's dominated by the few that are most vocal.

That is just not true.

So you would contend that most sports stars, sports media, actors, and muscians that are popular are actually not left leaning?

I contend that they are all individuals and have their own opinions. We have no way of actually stating which way they lean as entire groups and the only reason people continue to even care about it is because it falls in to their persecution complex.

They feel people and groups of people are against them or out to get them.

Its not a huge deal, so I am not going to argue.

I think that almost evryone, including the group's in mention, would admit that places like Hollywood and sports media are overwhelmingly left wing.

I would only wish that some people would admit that they think Hollywood and other groups lean Left wing because that has been the propaganda they have been subjected to since the 80's.

I don't know what to say.

Just take the Emmys. Do you really think that most of that crowd wasn't left leaning?

I am not in a position to make such an assumption. I don't know who the vast majority of them are, let alone their political stance.

Do you?

a reply to: burdman30ott6


This is not aimed at you OP but all I can think of is why are we even giving a crap about this? What are we not seeing because we are so distracted with this and Trump is making it huge, is this just entertainment while they prime up to something big? I don't know but things are strange.

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: Grambler

But let's not pretend that when it comes to culture, the left dominated.

Rather it be sports, tv, movies, music, etc, all of this is dominated by the left.

No, it's not dominated by the Left. It's dominated by the few that are most vocal.

That is just not true.

So you would contend that most sports stars, sports media, actors, and muscians that are popular are actually not left leaning?

I contend that they are all individuals and have their own opinions. We have no way of actually stating which way they lean as entire groups and the only reason people continue to even care about it is because it falls in to their persecution complex.

They feel people and groups of people are against them or out to get them.

Its not a huge deal, so I am not going to argue.

I think that almost evryone, including the group's in mention, would admit that places like Hollywood and sports media are overwhelmingly left wing.

I would only wish that some people would admit that they think Hollywood and other groups lean Left wing because that has been the propaganda they have been subjected to since the 80's.

I don't know what to say.

Just take the Emmys. Do you really think that most of that crowd wasn't left leaning?

I am not in a position to make such an assumption. I don't know who the vast majority of them are, let alone their political stance.

Do you?

Well the ones speaking were quite clear.

But that's fine if that's what you feel.

I assume you also make no judgements on the leanings of evangelicals, or any other group.

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: intrepid

...since they have chosen to put themselves in a position contrary to the traditionally social issue neutrality professional sports leagues have adopted over the past 30 years...

They didn't. It was thrust on them by a pompous president that used them to make points with his base. This benign protest was barely mentioned this year until Trump opened his big mouth to inflame the situation. It wasn't even a pimple before his words. Barely a blemish but now, due to HIM, we have a seeping boil.

Very true. This was not a political issue. It was a social issue and someone outside the NFL made it political.

Bull! Disrespecting the anthem and flag isn't 'political'???

Freaking amazing level of denial..New heights.

It's a political issue on a social issue. I can't see how you could have one without the other in this instance.

If it's a social issue, then leave the flag and anthem out of it. Can't separate it? It's BEEN separate until this move. All it's done is disaffect millions from any empathy from the 'apparent' social one.